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Old 2008-04-11, 21:34   Link #141
Major1138
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
That's what I'm waiting to see, but he isn't looking particularly good at the moment

Maybe I should have rephrased that, prove Suzaku was correct or true, or whatever, but you get my point. Results are the basis of Lelouch's whole gimmick, doing the morally right thing isn't always doing the correct thing, so we shift those standards aside when making the decision of which means to use and focus on the overall end.
It all really boils down to the age old question of "do the ends justify the means?" In order to answer that, you'd have to exam what exactly are the ends and means in question.

Are the "ends" themselves worth doing anything for? Lelouch isn't doing what he does because he wants to free Japan or anything like that. He wants to build what he thinks will be a "perfect" world for his sister. It just so happens that it means bringing down an oppressive empire. You could argue that even if he's being rather selfish, it might be worth going along with since you agree with the idea of a free Japan. What if he thought the only way he bring about this perfect world was to be even more oppressive than the Britannians? What if he wanted to rule the world himself? Does that change anything?

Are the means even remotely proportional to the ends? Assuming the end in question is a Japan free of Britannian rule, you may think it a valid trade to kill ten soldiers. What about a thousand? What if instead of killing a thousand Britannian soldiers, he had to kill a million innocent Japanese citizens? Is it still worth it? Or what if the ends he were trying to achieve weren't so lofty? What if he wanted something really mundane, but still considered "good"? Is that worth pursuing extreme measures for?

It's one thing to say that the tradeoffs that Lelouch is making in the series are worth it. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say the ends always justify the means. Sometimes doing the moral thing is the right thing.
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Old 2008-04-11, 21:40   Link #142
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That's a lot of 'what ifs' over 'what is' Major, I think you should focus within the context of what has been presented in the show over pure speculative theory that runs counter to what has been established
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Old 2008-04-11, 21:45   Link #143
Major1138
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
That's a lot of 'what ifs' over 'what is' Major, I think you should focus within the context of what has been presented in the show over pure speculative theory that runs counter to what has been established
You can all you want - but the point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to claim that "ends justify the means" in the series, the writers can make it anyway they want. You're the one who said you can't focus on his methods because his ends are good.
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Old 2008-04-11, 21:47   Link #144
ashlay
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It's one thing to say that the tradeoffs that Lelouch is making in the series are worth it. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say the ends always justify the means. Sometimes doing the moral thing is the right thing.
Except that is not at all the situation in Code Geass. Everyone's means are "wrong", and anyone who attempted to use those that were "right" were either out of touch with reality and achieving "wrong" ends with their means (Boku Suzaku), or had basically given up against the world, and instead decided to achieve thier small "right" ends in a extremely localized area. (Euphie)

In Code Geass, ends justify means, if merely becaues means don't justify ends. The world is not kind enough to allow such idealistic thinkers to survive, they either disappear into their small corners unable to affect the world as a whole, or they walk the path of carnage. There are no other options.

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You can all you want - but the point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to claim that "ends justify the means" in the series, the writers can make it anyway they want. You're the one who said you can't focus on his methods because his ends are good.
And to be fair, Lelouch may be amoral in the general sense, but he at least tries to adhere to his own personal principles. It's not as if his means are irrevocably evil by any definition.
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Old 2008-04-11, 21:51   Link #145
KrimzonStriker
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You can all you want - but the point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to claim that "ends justify the means" in the series, the writers can make it anyway they want. You're the one who said you can't focus on his methods because his ends are good.
And we know what his ends are, so lets focus on that shall we over conjecture of forming an equally oppressive regime after defeating Britannia, which is not his end.

Killing innocent civilians is also counter to his goals, because he wants to create a world where those without power are not abused by those who do.

I said we couldn't focus on the cost of his methods in comparison to the worth of his goal. We already established what his methods are, and they don't involve doing the complete opposite of his ends. You're taking things way out of context from what we've been shown thus far and not basing them on anything solid.
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:09   Link #146
Major1138
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And we know what his ends are, so lets focus on that shall we over conjecture of forming an equally oppressive regime after defeating Britannia, which is not his end.

Killing innocent civilians is also counter to his goals, because he wants to create a world where those without power are not abused by those who do.

I said we couldn't focus on the cost of his methods in comparison to the worth of his goal. We already established what his methods are, and they don't involve doing the complete opposite of his ends. You're taking things way out of context from what we've been shown thus far and not basing them on anything solid.
The notion that he wants to build a world where those without power are not abused by those with it isn't entirely true - he wants to build a so-called "perfect world" for his sister, and it just so happens that sticking to Britannia (the powerful who oppress the powerless) is something he needs to do along the way.

I'm not going to say that his methods were entirely wrong - Britannia plays hardball, and the Black Knights need to respond in kind if they want to get anywhere. I'll even give a pass to the lives lost at Narita, since it didn't go according to plan, but I would suggest that someone who strives to protect the weak wouldn't put innocents at risk like that.

Abandoning the Black Knights in Tokyo to track down his sister is something a little tougher - to me, it highlights the big disconnect. It fits with what he wants to do: if he's looking to build a perfect world for his sister, it'd be pointless if she gets killed, so he does have to go after her. But in order to build this perfect world for her, his relationship with the Black Knights is an alliance of convenience. His goals and theirs for the most part coincide, but as the end of season 1 showed, he'd throw them all under the bus if need be. I don't think I'm too out there in suggesting that "the cost" of trading all of them for his sister is cause for an eyebrow raise or two.
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:13   Link #147
Dann of Thursday
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I think Lelouch knows that a perfect world is impossible. He wants a world where Nunnally can be happy and where they no longer have to fear anymore.

It may seem odd to abandon his battle for his sister, but it sort of shows that Lelouch chose love over power in this case if you look at it in a certain way.
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:17   Link #148
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Major1138 View Post
Abandoning the Black Knights in Tokyo to track down his sister is something a little tougher - to me, it highlights the big disconnect. It fits with what he wants to do: if he's looking to build a perfect world for his sister, it'd be pointless if she gets killed, so he does have to go after her. But in order to build this perfect world for her, his relationship with the Black Knights is an alliance of convenience. His goals and theirs for the most part coincide, but as the end of season 1 showed, he'd throw them all under the bus if need be. I don't think I'm too out there in suggesting that "the cost" of trading all of them for his sister is cause for an eyebrow raise or two.
Still, you'd only have seen him as more reprehensible if he had abandoned Nunnally. Let's face it, Lelouch being unable to kill his heart despite how hard he tried in episode 24 and 25 is a positive, not a negative.

Besides, it's not like he was abandoning them permanently. >_>

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I think Lelouch knows that a perfect world is impossible. He wants a world where Nunnally can be happy and where they no longer have to fear anymore.
edit: (see episode 5)
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:21   Link #149
Dann of Thursday
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Um, where in episode 6?
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:25   Link #150
ashlay
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Um, where in episode 6?
whoops, I meant episode 5. >_>

"of course, I don't think it's possible to get rid of all of that."
"I'm not that arrogant"
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:26   Link #151
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Still, you'd only have seen him as more reprehensible if he had abandoned Nunnally. Let's face it, Lelouch being unable to kill his heart despite how hard he tried in episode 24 and 25 is a positive, not a negative.

Besides, it's not like he was abandoning them permanently. >_>
I don't see him as reprehensible - if his dream is to build a world where Nunnally can live peace, he's got to look out for her above all else. The point I was trying to make was that in order to fulfill his dream, he's gone a bit beyond just the usual "do whatever it takes to bring down the evil empire" stuff - he's built up an entire rebellion on a lie. If that's the case, it's a bit of a stretch to say that since his goals are good (which they more or less are), we don't have to worry about the costs of getting there.

Of course, the fact that the Black Knights go through all that trouble to get him back in the first episode of the second season suggests it's a lie they're willing to live with as well. It just so happens that his goals align, for the most part, with theirs. Ironically, given what happened to Nunnally, there's even less chance he'll abandon them now, since he needs them more than ever.
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:32   Link #152
ashlay
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I don't see him as reprehensible - if his dream is to build a world where Nunnally can live peace, he's got to look out for her above all else. The point I was trying to make was that in order to fulfill his dream, he's gone a bit beyond just the usual "do whatever it takes to bring down the evil empire" stuff - he's built up an entire rebellion on a lie. If that's the case, it's a bit of a stretch to say that since his goals are good (which they more or less are), we don't have to worry about the costs of getting there.

Of course, the fact that the Black Knights go through all that trouble to get him back in the first episode of the second season suggests it's a lie they're willing to live with as well.
a lie? But it's not a lie at all. Lelouch does want to see Japan free. Again, just because his reason for being is Nunnally doesn't mean he doesn't have secondary motivations too.

The truth is that Lelouch is their comerade, fighting Britannia for the same reason a lot of them are: family, and the idea that Lelouch is merely using them is the lie, born out of self sacrificing tendencies or sheer panic or whatever you want to call it.
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:34   Link #153
KrimzonStriker
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The notion that he wants to build a world where those without power are not abused by those with it isn't entirely true - he wants to build a so-called "perfect world" for his sister, and it just so happens that sticking to Britannia (the powerful who oppress the powerless) is something he needs to do along the way.

I'm not going to say that his methods were entirely wrong - Britannia plays hardball, and the Black Knights need to respond in kind if they want to get anywhere. I'll even give a pass to the lives lost at Narita, since it didn't go according to plan, but I would suggest that someone who strives to protect the weak wouldn't put innocents at risk like that.

Abandoning the Black Knights in Tokyo to track down his sister is something a little tougher - to me, it highlights the big disconnect. It fits with what he wants to do: if he's looking to build a perfect world for his sister, it'd be pointless if she gets killed, so he does have to go after her. But in order to build this perfect world for her, his relationship with the Black Knights is an alliance of convenience. His goals and theirs for the most part coincide, but as the end of season 1 showed, he'd throw them all under the bus if need be. I don't think I'm too out there in suggesting that "the cost" of trading all of them for his sister is cause for an eyebrow raise or two.
Is that not the premise of the peaceful (not perfect) world he wants Nunnally to live in though? Is that not his belief, for what is Nunnally if not one who is weak in the most apparent of ways and has been abused by the strong. It is precisely because of the way the world works that resulted in Nunnally's tragedy and his own, and part of Lelouch's resolve to change that, this in turn grants him a measure of apathy toward others who are oppressed as well, even when he acts aloof, take when he saved the hot-dog vendor and that Japanese getting beat up by the noble, or when he stood up for Kallen during episode 26. There's also his disgust with the pointless slaughter exerted by Britannia during the ghetto cleansings and the public executions by Carares, along with other abuses like the two brothers forced to fight each other in the ring, and the subsequent torching of the victims at the end of the episode. He hates what Britannia represents just as much for the threat it posses to him and Nunnally.

If one is to achieve anything then sometimes one must take risks, it's only logical that at some point incidents like Narita will happen no matter what he does, that's the cost when he decided to take up arms in the first place. But that also means he doesn't go out of his way to protect the people as well, the hotel-jacking is a good example, and his subsequent shift of the Order from a terrorist organization that targets civilians who have nothing to do with the struggle to a vigilante Order that defends them from abuse.

That he has personal reasons for what he does is something that is understandable, many in the order have there own personal reasons for working with him as well. It also effects his usually calm and logical judgment, at that point he wasn't weighing the overall objective over the costs like he usually does, he does the exact opposite in fact. So you can say its actually because he detracts from his ways that things ended as badly as they did. In any case Episode 1 of Season 2 shows he's working to correct that little misshape with the Order
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:09   Link #154
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I think that Lelouch gets very emotionally connected to people he knows well. This is why he does such unstratigic things when those close to him are in danger. I really saw him abandoning his troops as a sign of his youth and relative inexperience.

I don't understand why the Order does not have reservations about him being their leader again. If I was in the order I might resuce him, I might want his help with stratgy again, but I would only want him as an advisor not a leader.
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:10   Link #155
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That would mean you would have to take up the job then, you sure you're up for the responsibility?
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:14   Link #156
ashlay
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Originally Posted by TurquoiseThyme View Post
I think that Lelouch gets very emotionally connected to people he knows well. This is why he does such unstratigic things when those close to him are in danger. I really saw him abandoning his troops as a sign of his youth and relative inexperience.

I don't understand why the Order does not have reservations about him being their leader again. If I was in the order I might resuce him, I might want his help with stratgy again, but I would only want him as an advisor not a leader.
Ougi more or less summed it up in episode 4:
"Other than him, who else could do something like this?"

Can't blame Lelouch from getting captured when nearly all of them got captured too. At least with him in the lead, they stood a fighting chance.
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:22   Link #157
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That would mean you would have to take up the job then, you sure you're up for the responsibility?
Oh, I'm not up for the job. I actually think Lelouch is the best person for the job. I just hope that the writers of the show have Lelouch work to regain his reputation within the Order. Not just have the majority of the Order accept him back without him proving he won't run out on a battle again. I just don't think "my sister was kidnapped" cuts it.

Lelouch could lie about why he left, if Kallen doesn't tell.
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:34   Link #158
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True, true, but I'd wait until Episode 2 before saying Lelouch won't prove he's worthy of being their leader, at the expense of Britannia of course
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:52   Link #159
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True, true, but I'd wait until Episode 2 before saying Lelouch won't prove he's worthy of being their leader, at the expense of Britannia of course
I would be perfectly happy if he proved himself in Episode 2. And from the conversation in the prison there hopfully will be some diffrences of opinion within the Order which he will have to overcome.

I think that Lelouch's strength as a likable character is his empathy towards others. He has a great deal of self awareness and knows that empathy is potentially a weakness when in conflict with others. I belive that he has cultivated a cool (as in distant) personality, and practiced a strategic way of looking at the world, in order to keep his empathy from imoblizing him.
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Old 2008-04-12, 07:24   Link #160
Dann of Thursday
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Part of R2 is going to be about the Order being tested as a real organization, which means that while Lelouch will still be the leader, he won't be the sole source of everything and thus have everyone dependent on him which was the problem in season 1.
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