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Old 2008-04-11, 17:12   Link #261
Dann of Thursday
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Meh, I'm already pessimistic enough about everything else.

C.C.'s screwed in the end no matter how you look at it so it doesn't really matter I guess. That whole thing about breaking the chain of isolation is probably true, which makes everything C.C. says about it isolating him meaningless and how it will be she who is alone in the end. The look on her face is probably an indication that she is losing any connection to Lelouch and he is no longer being trusting with her anymore and is being more open with everyone else.
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Old 2008-04-11, 18:12   Link #262
KrimzonStriker
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Dann.... calm down please

This isn't exactly a two way street, and there's nothing to say she might not join him in this endeavor. I mean, breaking fate, removing tears, the hundred million message that echos and how he'll protect them, and why build everything up from Season 1 only to tear is down? Just a bunch of maybes, nothing definite because if it was definite it would have happened, but keep your options open because there still seem to be plenty. At the very least don't think about the pairing so much anymore, you're not helping yourself I'm feeling...>_>
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Old 2008-04-11, 22:51   Link #263
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I contested in the second sentence, but I used the first to recognize certain aspects in my previous argument I think you ignored. I'm going to go out and say that it's the complete opposite from my perspective, because Lelouch's true face is that caring older brother, case in point when he abandoned the rebellion for her. And well, you know I'm not going to argue with you about Nunnally's true face but even then the core feelings are still present even in that form >_>

Why are we speaking as if he's a different person? Lelouch is not some one-dimensional student, nor a one-dimensional pampered prince, nor a one dimensional vigilante terrorist leader, he's all of those things and more, he's also that caring older brother and that is present in all of the forms you just spoke of.
Your two paragraphs contradict each other... again. Lelouch's true face isn't just a caring older brother, it is many different things with that just being a part of it. Nunally does not know the other faces, as such, you can't tell me that she knows who her brother is or is becoming. The simple fact that she only knows one side of Lelouch is a sign that they are drifting apart because Lelouch is changing while she is remaining Nunally.

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And from my point of view the lyrics imply a movement toward bridging the present gap, hence the in between yesterday and tomorrow, and then quickly going into not knowing where this fight will lead them. And that's exactly what is going on here, we don't definetively know what will happen in the end, so I'd appreciate it if you would stop making it seem like you do already know.
What? How does the line "At the intersection of tomorrow and yesterday ~ For us who don’t come across each other" talk about bridging the present gap? Don't just tell me you take it to mean that, explain why you take it to mean that. What reasoning do you have to make a claim that this implies anything but seperation. For example, I've been basing my ideas around what Koshimizu presented in his very nice analysis of the OP.

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The whole argument is a big if, I thought you realised that, or maybe it's because you don't realise it that you make all these case-closed judgements. Our arguments are based on different interpretations and nothing really conclusive at this point, that doesn't stop me from putting out my own speculations out there and it doesn't prevent you from doing the same, but I at least make a point to note that nothing is definitive yet, because it isn't, as a sign of respect for other people's own assesments by not implying that my own interpretations are fact.
And I'm going to stand by the point that some of your arguments are too if based and tend to stretch the meaning or truth of something far beyond a simple view. Occam's razor.
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:06   Link #264
KrimzonStriker
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Your two paragraphs contradict each other... again. Lelouch's true face isn't just a caring older brother, it is many different things with that just being a part of it. Nunally does not know the other faces, as such, you can't tell me that she knows who her brother is or is becoming. The simple fact that she only knows one side of Lelouch is a sign that they are drifting apart because Lelouch is changing while she is remaining Nunally.
They do not, I didn't say it was his only face, only his true one, that at his core he is the caring older brother. You'd have made that connection had you highlighted the last line of my second paragraph.

Quote:
What? How does the line "At the intersection of tomorrow and yesterday ~ For us who don’t come across each other" talk about bridging the present gap? Don't just tell me you take it to mean that, explain why you take it to mean that. What reasoning do you have to make a claim that this implies anything but seperation. For example, I've been basing my ideas around what Koshimizu presented in his very nice analysis of the OP.
The intersection between tomorrow and yesterday would be the present am I correct? And in that current time frame they are separated from each other, that doesn't speak for what will occur in the future however, as by my indication in the shooting star lines he's going to forward to reunite with her, which is in keeping with the plot as well. There's also the line of him going forward to fight now, since it came right afterwards the being separated segment I'll assume he's going to fight to get to her, but that the results of this battle are still not known. That's basically what we come back to Var, a clash that has yet to be determined, so I don't think we can make sudden declarations that they will continue to be separate, just as I try not to make any declarations that they will reunite as these two aspects will clash with each other, and we'll see the result from there I guess.

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And I'm going to stand by the point that some of your arguments are too if based and tend to stretch the meaning or truth of something far beyond a simple view. Occam's razor.
It's not like I can outright disagree with you're possibility, or say for a 100% that my version will happen, because even I'm unsure of what will occur in the end due to all the present elements. I make sure to acknowledge your points at least with my ifs so I think this counters making an overly general statement that things have been decided as such, and it's not like I don't bring up valid points of my own to support my views. All the reasons I've brought up thus far giving my simple view something more then that, it gives it credibility. And what the heck is an Occam's razor?
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:25   Link #265
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And what the heck is an Occam's razor?
It comes from William of Occam, a 20th century English philosopher, who proposed the principle of maximum parsimony (a.k.a Occam's Razor), a principle where one should study the simplest explanation that is most consistent with the facts out of all possible hypotheses first. It's a concept that is sometimes used in Biology (Yay for AP Bio!) as well as other mediums
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:33   Link #266
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Guess it's just a difference of which hypothesis we view as Occam's Razor I suppose

Thanks for the explanation anyway
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:39   Link #267
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They do not, I didn't say it was his only face, only his true one, that at his core he is the caring older brother. You'd have made that connection had you highlighted the last line of my second paragraph.
... A person who hides behind many faces has no single true face (example: Two Face/Harvey Dent, or Jeckyl/Hyde). He has many different parts comprising a whole. We know, full well, that Lelouch is not a caring brother when he is Zero. He killed two of his siblings. When Nunally came into question he was no longer Zero, he was Lelouch. Watch 25, when Nunally is mentioned the Zero mask is off/broken. Its symbolism at its finest.

Also... Lelouch's true face is the one shown during the massacre (and let's not omit your favorite line that C.C. is the only one who knows the real Lelouch). Heck, if you want to tell me that Nunally knows Lelouch, then I might as well go into the Romance thread and base an entire pro Nunally argument and completely bash C.C's words as meaningless.

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The intersection between tomorrow and yesterday would be the present am I correct? And in that current time frame they are separated from each other, that doesn't speak for what will occur in the future however, as by my indication in the shooting star lines he's going to forward to reunite with her, which is in keeping with the plot as well. There's also the line of him going forward to fight now, since it came right afterwards the being separated segment I'll assume he's going to fight to get to her, but that the results of this battle are still not known. That's basically what we come back to Var, a clash that has yet to be determined, so I don't think we can make sudden declarations that they will continue to be separate, just as I try not to make any declarations that they will reunite as these two aspects will clash with each other, and we'll see the result from there I guess.
There we go.

Now, tell me, how is the shooting star line at all reference to him moving toward her? It's movement, yes, but its not stated as to where he's going. As for the fighting; there are multiple reasons why he fights you can't limit it to just one.

My original point is that there is no indication for overcoming the seperation barrier. I've really seen nothing to support that they might, and I've seen plenty to show that they have been slowly drifting apart.

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It's not like I can outright disagree with you're possibility, or say for a 100% that my version will happen, because even I'm unsure of what will occur in the end due to all the present elements. I make sure to acknowledge your points at least with my ifs so I think this counters making an overly general statement that things have been decided as such, and it's not like I don't bring up valid points of my own to support my views. All the reasons I've brought up thus far giving my simple view something more then that, it gives it credibility. And what the heck is an Occam's razor?
If you don't know Occam's razor, then you missed my point.
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Old 2008-04-11, 23:50   Link #268
flou
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Guess it's just a difference of which hypothesis we view as Occam's Razor I suppose

Thanks for the explanation anyway
Rather than the maximum parsimony, I would say you have different views on which explanation has the maximum likelihood, since Var's explanation is the simpler of the two based on the things we've observed. I'm not disregarding either opinions, though
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Old 2008-04-12, 00:05   Link #269
KrimzonStriker
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Quote:
... A person who hides behind many faces has no single true face (example: Two Face/Harvey Dent, or Jeckyl/Hyde). He has many different parts comprising a whole. We know, full well, that Lelouch is not a caring brother when he is Zero. He killed two of his siblings. When Nunally came into question he was no longer Zero, he was Lelouch. Watch 25, when Nunally is mentioned the Zero mask is off/broken. Its symbolism at its finest.

Also... Lelouch's true face is the one shown during the massacre (and let's not omit your favorite line that C.C. is the only one who knows the real Lelouch). Heck, if you want to tell me that Nunally knows Lelouch, then I might as well go into the Romance thread and base an entire pro Nunally argument and completely bash C.C's words as meaningless.
I thought you were all about the core motivations Var?

If you're just counting the times he has the helmet on then that's where we differ, because I also count times when he has it off and displays his Zero characteristics up front as well. But if we're really going to get into particulars, the motivation of Zero is the kind caring brother for Nunnally and since that was obvious I'd like you to re frame from twisting my words by bringing up his other siblings. He also has his helmet on when he's concerned about her as well, before Suzaku butted in anyway. Since that seems to stick out, I'll bring up my interpretation that when the mask fell it showed that Lelouch was Zero, not Zero was Lelouch.

What are you getting at anyway, that's not my meaning at all. Of course Nunnally doesn't know all of Lelouch, I brought that up before, she knows that core motivation though, the one that really matters. And C.C also knows that as well, plus EVERYTHING else, so you can give C.C a slight advantage in that regard. I only brought up the point that Nunnally knows the most important part of him, his true face.

Quote:
There we go.

Now, tell me, how is the shooting star line at all reference to him moving toward her? It's movement, yes, but its not stated as to where he's going. As for the fighting; there are multiple reasons why he fights you can't limit it to just one.

My original point is that there is no indication for overcoming the seperation barrier. I've really seen nothing to support that they might, and I've seen plenty to show that they have been slowly drifting apart.
It's a nod toward a physical reference, because he's doing exactly that in the plot, along with where his destination is in the plot which is to find Nunnally... And sure there are multiple reasons he fights, just give me the most important one.>_>

And I assert there is indication, that while there is a physical barrier preventing them, which is being worked on IN THE PLOT, I dissuade from consenting to the notion of an emotional barrier as well. And bah to you, what have I been doing but bring up points that indicate they might overcome the barrier? Whatever, take it how you will, you haven't convinced me I'm wrong in my speculation in turn anyway


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If you don't know Occam's razor, then you missed my point.
I was let in the loop by flou, my conviction in the viability of my assessment over yours still stands because I think I'm more consistent with all that has been presented instead of just some.

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Rather than the maximum parsimony, I would say you have different views on which explanation has the maximum likelihood, since Var's explanation is the simpler of the two based on the things we've observed. I'm not disregarding either opinions, though
It's simple but I feel its not in keeping with regards to everything, so from my view I made an as simple assessment in keeping with what's been given. He subtracts too much I think, these things are important if you want to create a viable conclusion.
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Old 2008-04-12, 00:34   Link #270
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I thought you were all about the core motivations Var?
Irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
If you're just counting the times he has the helmet on then that's where we differ, because I also count times when he has it off and displays his Zero characteristics up front as well. But if we're really going to get into particulars, the motivation of Zero is the kind caring brother for Nunnally and since that was obvious I'd like you to re frame from twisting my words by bringing up his other siblings. He also has his helmet on when he's concerned about her as well, before Suzaku butted in anyway. Since that seems to stick out, I'll bring up my interpretation that when the mask fell it showed that Lelouch was Zero, not Zero was Lelouch.
If we're not going to count the helmet as a symbol of Zero then there's utterly no line between the three different Lelouchs. Which doesn't really serve you in any way, since removing the distinction removes the idea of a true face entirely.

The mask of Zero is the face of Zero.

The other siblings are important in seperating Zero, Lelouch Lamperouge, and Lelouch Vi Britannia, and to show just how little Nunally knows about her brother.

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What are you getting at anyway, that's not my meaning at all. Of course Nunnally doesn't know all of Lelouch, I brought that up before, she knows that core motivation though, the one that really matters. And C.C also knows that as well, plus EVERYTHING else, so you can give C.C a slight advantage in that regard. I only brought up the point that Nunnally knows the most important part of him, his true face.
I'm getting at the fact that Nunally and Lelouch are drifting apart as she knows less and less of him. Hence, why I am saying that she doesn't know all of him. How is this hard to understand?

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It's a nod toward a physical reference, because he's doing exactly that in the plot, along with where his destination is in the plot which is to find Nunnally... And sure there are multiple reasons he fights, just give me the most important one.>_>
To find his mother's killer and to make a good world for Nunally to live in.

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And I assert there is indication, that while there is a physical barrier preventing them, which is being worked on IN THE PLOT, I dissuade from consenting to the notion of an emotional barrier as well. And bah to you, what have I been doing but bring up points that indicate they might overcome the barrier? Whatever, take it how you will, you haven't convinced me I'm wrong in my speculation in turn anyway
All you've been doing is arguing in a circle that Nunally isn't drifting from her brother. I don't bother convincing you of anything, your tone is far to confrontational for me to bother.

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It's simple but I feel its not in keeping with regards to everything, so from my view I made an as simple assessment in keeping with what's been given. He subtracts too much I think, these things are important if you want to create a viable conclusion.
It doesn't matter what you think. Because every single one of your points is a circular strawman argument where you constantly put yourself above the rest. It's quite irritating. Just because you think something is important doesn't make it so, I'm going by the most simplistic because (most) people will agree on what is presented, but not neccesseraly with how I compile the points into a theory. If we want to bring in further points then it really drifts out of the realm of simplicity.

Due to the fact that we're going immensely off-topic, I'm not going to reply lest this actually returns to the thread's actual topic.
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Old 2008-04-12, 11:53   Link #271
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Irrelevant.
You're just skimping around the fact that you're backtracking from your original views. If I bring it up it adds a question of the reliability of your assesment so far from irrelevant in my view

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If we're not going to count the helmet as a symbol of Zero then there's utterly no line between the three different Lelouchs. Which doesn't really serve you in any way, since removing the distinction removes the idea of a true face entirely.

The mask of Zero is the face of Zero.

The other siblings are important in seperating Zero, Lelouch Lamperouge, and Lelouch Vi Britannia, and to show just how little Nunally knows about her brother.
It's actually in keeping with my argument that there is no actual 'line' that completely separates who Lelouch is, because as I stated he is all of those things and more. Some of his personality traits become more dominant depending on which situation he's dealing with, but from what is observed he remains consistent with that caring older brother side of him throughout the series.

Meh, I disagree with that assessment in that they showed how all those faces were wrapped together, and that Nunnally knows that most important part of her brother which is present during all his actions


Quote:
I'm getting at the fact that Nunally and Lelouch are drifting apart as she knows less and less of him. Hence, why I am saying that she doesn't know all of him. How is this hard to understand?
No, that's not the problem, you didn't get my argument at all. I've been moving to say that despite the changes that core motivation of his remains the same and that it is what keeps them together, and what is responsible for his movement to reunite with her.

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To find his mother's killer and to make a good world for Nunally to live in.
And which one did he choose at the end of episode 25, revenge or Nunnally? I rest my case :rolleyesL

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All you've been doing is arguing in a circle that Nunally isn't drifting from her brother. I don't bother convincing you of anything, your tone is far to confrontational for me to bother.
I've argued that a strong bond is still present between them, then you brought up the kidnapping which is a physical seperation being worked on by Lelouch, and that runs counter to your argument that they are drifting all on its own. And if I'm too confrontational for you I wonder why you keep up these arguments with me?

Quote:
It doesn't matter what you think. Because every single one of your points is a circular strawman argument where you constantly put yourself above the rest. It's quite irritating. Just because you think something is important doesn't make it so, I'm going by the most simplistic because (most) people will agree on what is presented, but not neccesseraly with how I compile the points into a theory. If we want to bring in further points then it really drifts out of the realm of simplicity.

Due to the fact that we're going immensely off-topic, I'm not going to reply lest this actually returns to the thread's actual topic.
I could say the same for a lot of the crap you've pulled thus far, to me your points are just as circular but you go above that by passing it off as fact. You're always making conjectures out of one-side of the picture, and subtract the points that don't match up with your sentiment but has been presented thus far from how you form your conclusions, and that's where I disagree with you. My points are far from irrelevant, so when taken into account as you should have done in the first place, they can form a very simple summary. On one-hand we have a bunch of obstacles separating them, on the other we have Lelouch's will to overcome them, and which one of these two sides wins will determine the outcome. A very simple argument that makes use of and is inkeeping with all the elements that has been presented thus far.

In any case, I'll consent to letting the matter rest for now myself, we're cluttering up the threads again
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Old 2008-04-12, 19:15   Link #272
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What song is playing in episode 22 when Euphemia announces the massacre? I have both soundtracks but I can't seem to find it...
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Old 2008-04-12, 19:19   Link #273
Dann of Thursday
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It's likely one of the songs that will end up on the next OST. There are a few others like that as well.
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Old 2008-04-12, 19:29   Link #274
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It's likely one of the songs that will end up on the next OST. There are a few others like that as well.
There's going to be a third soundtrack? Is there a release date for that announced?
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Old 2008-04-12, 19:31   Link #275
Dann of Thursday
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No, nothing yet. It is pretty much a given that we'll see at least one more OST if not two.
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Old 2008-04-12, 19:33   Link #276
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I don't think there is yet, but it's likely that there will be. Someone else may probably know when and if there's any announcement, though I haven't seen anyone mention it.

I guess we may get to see some unreleased tracks from season one, but that may depend on whether they're going to be used in season two or, to put it bluntly, if the people in charge remember to include them. If not, we may get a bunch of new tracks, which is always a good thing, but little else for the time being. That has happened with other OSTs, I believe.
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Old 2008-04-12, 19:34   Link #277
Dann of Thursday
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I haven't seen anything yet, though I'd think it will be a few more weeks till we get any sort of announcement of one.
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Old 2008-04-13, 03:58   Link #278
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I haven't seen anything yet, though I'd think it will be a few more weeks till we get any sort of announcement of one.
the anouncement usually comes after they've been several weeks into the series..
but it varies, could be this week or 2 weeks from now, alld epends on how they planned their releases
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Old 2008-04-14, 11:43   Link #279
Narona
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I'm trying to figure the chords for the Opening ><.

If some people want to help...

Tuning

Code:
E
B
G
D
A
E

Chords

Spoiler:



Electric guitar

Spoiler:



Acoustic guitar

Spoiler:

Last edited by Narona; 2008-04-14 at 11:54.
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Old 2008-04-14, 14:29   Link #280
-KarumA-
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not sure what this is but they are musical notes =3
i cant read them though..
thanks goes to lulu_quality from the Code Geass Livejournal community for scanning and upload them, it has to do with the O2 opening by Orange Range



they are musical lyrics of some sort.. not sure for what instrument..
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