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Old 2008-04-13, 09:46   Link #121
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Keep in mind, though, that even if Kallen realised that was when he Geassed her, the resulting memory loss leaves her no way of knowing exactly what Lelouch commanded her to do while she was under.

Well, sort of. Kallen replied that she wanted to believe him, not that she actually did.

I think Lelouch's subsequent actions are helping ease her suspicions, though - particularly when he told Urabe he was wrong to say that the Black Knights were expendable in the cause of helping Zero escape, and just sacrificing subordinates wouldn't bring victory over Britannia. (For extra points, he lent her his jacket, and clearly wasn't happy about Kallen throwing herself in front of him in that last face-off with Vincent.)
fair enough.

anyway, she let him have the gun and give her his jacket, didn't she? Sure, she's not as ridiculous a fangirl as before, (good!) but heck, she's not running out of the room or pointing guns at him anymore. I'd pretty much call that putitng her fears to rest. Besides, now she's made a promise to Urabe. (kinda...)
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Old 2008-04-13, 09:46   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Keep in mind, though, that even if Kallen realised that was when he Geassed her, the resulting memory loss leaves her no way of knowing exactly what Lelouch commanded her to do while she was under.

Well, sort of. Kallen replied that she wanted to believe him, not that she actually did.

I think Lelouch's subsequent actions are helping ease her suspicions, though - particularly when he told Urabe he was wrong to say that the Black Knights were expendable in the cause of helping Zero escape, and just sacrificing subordinates wouldn't bring victory over Britannia. (For extra points, he lent her his jacket, and clearly wasn't happy about Kallen throwing herself in front of him in that last face-off with Vincent.)
Kallen never realized she'd been Geassed. It was for such a short amount of time and about something so insignificant that there's really little chance for her to remember something like that. She could very well have thought she had spaced out.

Kallen said: Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de mo. Or something along those lines. She said she believes in him. She later followed with Zero, implying that he has to show her that he is truly the same person, or some such.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:03   Link #123
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Originally Posted by Archaic View Post
She said she believed him, then clarified that as believing in Zero, not Lulu.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:05   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Kallen said: Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de mo. Or something along those lines. She said she believes in him. She later followed with Zero, implying that he has to show her that he is truly the same person, or some such.
I've been listening to the line over and over. The "Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de" part is certainly correct, but while I heard a "mo" the first time as well, the more I listen to it, the more I think that's just my brain filling in the rest of the line as I expected it. Not entirely sure how the meaning of the sentence would change without the mo though.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:08   Link #125
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I've been listening to the line over and over. The "Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de" part is certainly correct, but while I heard a "mo" the first time as well, the more I listen to it, the more I think that's just my brain filling in the rest of the line as I expected it. Not entirely sure how the meaning of the sentence would change without the mo though.
Wouldn't taking out the -mo make it a more personal statement? I listened to it again, as well, and you're right that the mo is not there.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:09   Link #126
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That's not what I got from the scene. She said she believed him, then clarified that as believing in Zero, not Lulu.
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Kallen said: Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de mo. Or something along those lines.
I understand your points, but my interpretation differed slightly. If I'm hearing it correctly, the conversation went:

Lelouch: Shinjirarenai ka?
Kallen: Shinjitai. Dakara, dorei ni natte demo... (added note: I've listened to this several times too, and I'm positive the last "mo" is there. I'm also absolutely positive that Kallen says "shinjitai" here - "shinjiru" comes later.)
Lelouch: Sou ka.
Kallen: Demo! Watashi ga shinjiru no wa Zero yo. Lelouch, anta nanka ja nai.

So she starts by saying that she wants to believe him, then emphasises that the one she believes in is Zero, not Lelouch. I interpreted the second statement as conditional on the first ("I want to believe you - but even if I do, I can only believe in Zero, not Lelouch") as opposed to modifying the first ("I want to believe you... okay, I've decided I'll believe you, but only as Zero, not Lelouch"). I just didn't see any sign from Kallen that she was actually stopping to make such a serious decision in mid-conversation.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
She later followed with Zero, implying that he has to show her that he is truly the same person, or some such.
On the face of it, Kallen's statement that she's prepared to trust Zero but not Lelouch makes no sense - she knows that they're the same person, and it would be ridiculous to think she could actually treat them as different.

My interpretation is that she was laying down the limits of their new relationship - she's prepared to follow him and his publicly espoused ideals "professionally" when he's Zero, but she can't trust him personally as Lelouch.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:14   Link #127
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I understand your points, but my interpretation differed slightly. If I'm hearing it correctly, the conversation went:

Lelouch: Shinjirarenai ka?
Kallen: Shinjitai. Dakara, dorei ni natte demo...
Lelouch: Sou ka.
Kallen: Demo! Watashi ga shinjiru no wa Zero yo. Lelouch, anta nanka ja nai.

So she starts by saying that she wants to believe him, then emphasises that the one she believes in is Zero, not Lelouch. I interpreted the second statement as conditional on the first ("I want to believe you - but even if I do, I can only believe in Zero, not Lelouch") as opposed to modifying the first ("I want to believe you... okay, I've decided I'll believe you, but only as Zero, not Lelouch"). I just didn't see any sign from Kallen that she was actually stopping to make such a serious decision in mid-conversation.

On the face of it, Kallen's statement that she's prepared to trust Zero but not Lelouch makes no sense - she knows that they're the same person, and it would be ridiculous to think she could actually treat them as different.

My interpretation is that she was laying down the limits of their new relationship - she's prepared to follow him and his publicly espoused ideals "professionally" when he's Zero, but she can't trust him personally as Lelouch.
I'd have agreed with your assesment of the situation had the conversation been more consistent in timing, but there are two pauses before and after 'sou ka', as well as other sporadic pauses. I assumed that this was when she was making a decision of sorts. In normal conversation a pause like that, with the tone of voice, would usually imply that the person is in thought as they speak.

She distinguished them before, I think its more a line of "Show me your the same man". She wants to be certain that they are in fact the same. There is a difference between them, one was an untouchable idol, while the other was just a student. She needs to be reaffirmed just who Zero is.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:19   Link #128
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
On the face of it, Kallen's statement that she's prepared to trust Zero but not Lelouch makes no sense - she knows that they're the same person, and it would be ridiculous to think she could actually treat them as different.

My interpretation is that she was laying down the limits of their new relationship - she's prepared to follow him and his publicly espoused ideals "professionally" when he's Zero, but she can't trust him personally as Lelouch.
Maybe she means that she will follow Zero's commands as long as it doesn't seem to be for Lelouch's, and only Lelouch's, own goal. I think she sees Zero as someone who will work together with everyone to achieve everyones' goals, while she views Lelouch as a person who'll use her to achieve his own goals.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:19   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Wouldn't taking out the -mo make it a more personal statement? I listened to it again, as well, and you're right that the mo is not there.
Keeping in mind that it's past 1am here in Australia....without the mo, I think the sentence would be more conveying her fears about something like that having happened (or perhaps could imply that she already felt like she was his slave).

With the mo however...you could potentially interpret it as her being fine with having become his slave (with the implication that, because she trusts him, so she'd do anything for him)


In any case....getting back to the point from our posts earlier....there's nothing in that conversation about her "wanting to trust him", as you stated before Guppy. The rest of your interpretation sounds about right to me, though I would lean more towards the same conclusions as Var came to myself. I have to say though, I don't see these pauses you're mentioning var. The conversation seemed to flow naturally to me.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:20   Link #130
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Does this mean Kallen still has lingering aspects of the way she acted towards Zero in season 1 or did we take care of all that this episode?
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:23   Link #131
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I don't see these pauses you're mentioning var. The conversation seemed to flow naturally to me.
Could be my lack of sleep. But she seems to make a few pauses during the conversation. Though, now that I rewatched it, you're right there are no pauses where I thought there were. Though her tone of voice is still there.

Edit: The pause is at the start of their conversation. After 'Shinjirarenai ka'.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:24   Link #132
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Does this mean Kallen still has lingering aspects of the way she acted towards Zero in season 1 or did we take care of all that this episode?
Lingering? Frankly, it goes way beyond that now. It seems she's had a good long hard think about her feelings while they've been apart. If anything else, her feelings for Zero from then are even firmer than before. The only issue in her mind is accepting Lulu as her beloved Zero.

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Could be my lack of sleep. But she seems to make a few pauses during the conversation. Though, now that I rewatched it, you're right there are no pauses where I thought there were. Though her tone of voice is still there.
Her tone is all over the place. A true tsundere. She goes from a kind of insecure submissive tone right to self-confident assertions. It's confusing. ^^;
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:27   Link #133
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I'd have agreed with your assesment of the situation had the conversation been more consistent in timing, but there are two pauses before and after 'sou ka'. I assumed that this was when she was making a decision of sorts. In normal conversation a pause like that, with the tone of voice, would usually imply that the person is in thought as they speak.
Yes, but the first pause is before she says "shinjitai", so she obviously wasn't decided at that point.

I agree that the second pause is arguable, but during it we see Kallen's expression is still one of extreme uncertainty. We never see her positively affirm a decision; at most, it might be implied when she lifts her head and forcefully continues, "But...!"

Bottom line, we're just reading Kallen differently. I don't think we can settle this one today; more evidence will be required.

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She distinguished them before, I think its more a line of "Show me your the same man". She wants to be certain that they are in fact the same. There is a difference between them, one was an untouchable idol, while the other was just a student. She needs to be reaffirmed just who Zero is.
I agree she needs reaffirmation of who Zero actually is and what he stands for - that's why I don't think she still fully believes in him just yet.

If Kallen does distinguish between Zero and Lelouch, she's doing so on the basis of the "ideal" Zero, the public face - in which case Lelouch can't show he's the same man as Zero, because he isn't, and Kallen now knows that. She can't expect him to live up to Zero's ideals and goals in all respects, because in the final analysis they're not what drives Lelouch. The best she can do for now is to follow Zero the leader and trust that he'll advance the cause of Japanese liberation, while trying to figure out what makes Lelouch the man tick.

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In any case....getting back to the point from our posts earlier....there's nothing in that conversation about her "wanting to trust him", as you stated before Guppy.
I admit, I'm conflating "trust" and "believe" in this discussion, because I think the two concepts are largely interchangeable in this context. The bare facts are that Kallen did say "shinjitai" before saying "shinjiru."
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:31   Link #134
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Yes, but the first pause is before she says "shinjitai", so she obviously wasn't decided at that point.
Just watched the scene again to confirm, and she says "shinjite", not "shinjitai", making the scene...

Lelouch: Shinjirarenai ka?
Kallen: Shinjite. Dakara, dorei ni natte de
Lelouch: Sou ka.
Kallen: Demo! Watashi ga shinjiru no wa Zero yo. Lelouch, anta nanka ja nai.

She clearly states that she believes/trusts in him, not just that she wants to believe/trust in him. You're right though in that the concepts are interchangeable. Actually, I don't think from memory there's even a separation of the two concepts in Japanese.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:32   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post

The thing is that Lelouch can't show he's the same man as "Zero", because he isn't, and Kallen now knows that - she can't expect him to live up to Zero's ideals and goals in all respects, because in the final analysis they're not what drives Lelouch. The best she can do for now is to follow Zero the leader and trust that he'll advance the cause of Japanese liberation, while trying to figure out what makes Lelouch the man tick.


i agree, but she's now part of the special club that knows his identity and once she witness him doing "Zero-Sama" stuff, i don't think kallen will be able to separate the feelings she have for Zero with Lulou.
:3

muwahaha. love tsundere. epsecially in bunny suits.
well as long as they aren't wielding god-like powers anyway....
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:33   Link #136
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Yes, but the first pause is before she says "shinjitai", so she obviously wasn't decided at that point.

I agree that the second pause is arguable, but during it we see Kallen's expression is still one of extreme uncertainty. We never see her positively affirm a decision; at most, it might be implied when she lifts her head and forcefully continues, "But...!"

Bottom line, we're just reading Kallen differently. I don't think we can settle this one today; more evidence will be required.
Agreed. We're just pulling different things, we'll leave it for later. Though I'm glad you brought in a different analysis.

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I agree she needs reaffirmation of who Zero actually is and what he stands for - that's why I don't think she still fully believes in him just yet.

The thing is that Lelouch can't show he's the same man as "Zero", because he isn't, and Kallen now knows that - she can't expect him to live up to Zero's ideals and goals in all respects, because in the final analysis they're not what drives Lelouch. The best she can do for now is to follow Zero the leader and trust that he'll advance the cause of Japanese liberation, while trying to figure out what makes Lelouch the man tick.
I think we mostly agreed here but our wording is different. She needs to figure out who Zero is, as in who he really is between what she knew in S1 and what she knows now. When I said the same, I meant that they are the same willed individual who did what he did in S1. I understand, fully well, that she cannot put Lelouch on the same level as old Zero, but that is why I said was an idol. Zero is no longer that, to her at least, because she knows who's under the mask.

If anything, this is a perfectly good excuse to have them get closer to one another. Especially now that Lelouch knows how she's felt, the question falls on how that develops and how Kallen develops around Lelouch. Though, as you mentioned, he reaffirmed her trust and understanding of him with his actions concerning the jacket and Urabe.

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Just watched the scene again to confirm, and she says "shinjite", not "shinjitai". She clearly states that she believes in him, not just that she wants to believe in him.
Good ears.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:34   Link #137
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Just watched the scene again to confirm, and she says "shinjite", not "shinjitai". She clearly states that she believes in him, not just that she wants to believe in him.
I've listened to the scene again a couple of times (with earbuds in and the volume jacked up), and unfortunately I still disagree with you on this. I doubt we can resolve that short of obtaining the official transcript, or perhaps taking a poll.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:37   Link #138
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I've listened to the scene again a couple of times (with earbuds in and the volume jacked up), and unfortunately I still disagree with you on this. I doubt we can resolve that short of obtaining the official transcript, or perhaps taking a poll.
I'm almost certain the sound when she speaks is shinjita(i), I don't get any -e sound. Japanese -e is pretty distinct from -a.

Compare it to when Lelouch asks: Shinjirarenai ka. The -e is pretty obviously there. Then Kallen's reply sound very much so like a -a.

Hum... edit. Now that I listened to it again, I'm baffled.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:37   Link #139
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I've listened to the scene again a couple of times (with earbuds and the volume jacked up), and unfortunately I still disagree with you on this. I doubt we can resolve that short of obtaining the official transcript, or perhaps taking a poll.
Unless you've had experience as a translator and/or QC for fansubs here (which I have had, though in mostly minor roles I'll admit), and/or have lived in the country for a period (2004-2005 for me) I'm going to have to trump you here sorry. That's clearly a -te sound at the end of that word. Honestly, I don't know how you can possibly confuse the two.
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Old 2008-04-13, 10:38   Link #140
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Agreed. We're just pulling different things, we'll leave it for later. Though I'm glad you brought in a different analysis.
Yeah, it does keep life interesting. It's been nice discussing it with you.

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I think we mostly agreed here but our wording is different.
Yes, I agree with what you're saying there. I think we do feel the same way on this issue, and the rest is just semantics.
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