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Old 2008-04-13, 12:14   Link #101
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Well that's why he has to do his job. To curry favor. Seriously, even if you hate Suzaku, logically speaking, you should have already understood why Suzaku is doing what he's doing.

To effect change, he needs power. To obtain said power, he needs to gain Imperial backing.

He cannot back away anymore. This is the only path allowed to him. At the very least, this you should understand.
And as I keep saying, by becoming the current Emperor's Knight, he is PREVENTING a regime change. Emperor Wakamoto will now only be displaced over Suzaku's dead body, which means no new Emperor can change the administration until Suzaku dies.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:18   Link #102
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Wouldn't that depend on what you see as his real personality? You could see the superficial facade he shows to everyone as his real personality, the one where he fights for justice and doing things the right way. If you do, then yes, that is a drastic change. But for me, his real personality was the one he was repressing, the one he was trying to deny by being a nice guy, the one who kept rationalizing his past actions and coming up with his excuses, so for me that isn't a drastic change at all.
Stop it with this. It's drastic. He changed drastically from his kid self, Lelouch said that. And now he drastically changed back.

The END.

Quote:
I believe it still hasn't met your standards of total equality that may someday happen if Suzaku just keeps at doing his job, which is what I believe you were trying to invoke by bringing up the comparison? I don't know, but I just don't see it. Instead, what about a better example if the founding fathers of America had just decided to say 'dammit, we're not being represented but we'll stick with it and hopefully, there'll be no discrimination or violence anymore between us and Britain?
'

I never said anything about total equality. That's absurd. At the very least, the America of NOW compared to the America of THEN is so drastically different in terms of discrimination, it shouldn't be funny.

THAT's what I'm talking about. That discrimination DOES and CAN fade.

Quote:
This was after he was mindraped by Mao, where it was stated that he secretly wished to die. So I find it intr how you can suddenly bring up an instance that comes ages after he joins the army and say that 'yes, this is the reason why he joined the army. It was because he had hope' when that wasn't even his reason in the first place. Maybe he did have hope after the incident with Mao, but it seems more to me that he's sorta stuck where he is and he can not atone for his dad's death in any other way except to prove that it was hopeless to defy the britainnians.
Mao mindrapes people. Would you expect him to tell you the complete truth or distort it to mess with your mind?

He did try to find a way to die, but he wanted his death to not be in vain. He doesn't want useless deaths.

Quote:
And Jesus style of combat?
Jesus-style of combat is Kira Yamato's fighting style in GSD:

Do NOT kill opponents and just disarm them so they can't fight anymore. Kill only when really needed.

Quote:
It also doesn't change the fact that Schneizel might not if there were other pragmatic reasons for him not to -_-
Yeah, but Schneizel WANTS to rule the Empire and he'd rather see it live long and prosper than continually in war with itself. Sound episode again.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:20   Link #103
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And as I keep saying, by becoming the current Emperor's Knight, he is PREVENTING a regime change. Emperor Wakamoto will now only be displaced over Suzaku's dead body, which means no new Emperor can change the administration until Suzaku dies.
...


1. Suzaku works hard.
2. Emperor rewards his effort for being "The Strong and Useful>"
3. ???
4. PROFIT!

That is all. Even without a regime change, he may change everything. That is the possibility that he is banking on.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:25   Link #104
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
...


1. Suzaku works hard.
2. Emperor rewards his effort for being "The Strong and Useful>"
3. ???
4. PROFIT!

That is all. Even without a regime change, he may change everything. That is the possibility that he is banking on.
You do realize the "??? Profit" meme is used to describe plans that made no sense and can't work, right?

The "???" is EXACTLY the problem. It doesn't exist, thus the plan fails.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:25   Link #105
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Stop it with this. It's drastic. He changed drastically from his kid self, Lelouch said that. And now he drastically changed back.

The END.
Superficial personality. Repressed personality.

Quote:

I never said anything about total equality. That's absurd. At the very least, the America of NOW compared to the America of THEN is so drastically different in terms of discrimination, it shouldn't be funny.

THAT's what I'm talking about. That discrimination DOES and CAN fade.
Nobody said it couldn't. The qns I posed though was if Britainnias social fabric made it possible for discrimination to fade and if the britainnian philosophy didn't just keep reinforcing that discrimination by way of reinforcing britainnian superiority.

Quote:
Mao mindrapes people. Would you expect him to tell you the complete truth or distort it to mess with your mind?

He did try to find a way to die, but he wanted his death to not be in vain. He doesn't want useless deaths.
Mao mindrapes people by telling them the truth they don't want to hear -_- Again, I'll say that he wanted to die and he rationalized joining the army, perhaps to atone for his fathers killing. At which point, his rationalization to do so would be that he was justified in killing his father because it was hopeless to defy the Britainnians and this was the only choice he felt he could make. Nowhere does him genuinely hoping he can change the system come into play when he makes the decision to join.


[quote]
Jesus-style of combat is Kira Yamato's fighting style in GSD:

Do NOT kill opponents and just disarm them so they can't fight anymore. Kill only when really needed.[quote]

Yeah...again, don't see how this has to do with him hoping to change the empire. And Suzaku has killed people in s1, ep6 I think.


Quote:
Yeah, but Schneizel WANTS to rule the Empire and he'd rather see it live long and prosper than continually in war with itself. Sound episode again.
Yeah, but he's probably also pragmatic enough to know when that may not be possible. Just because you're pragmatic doesn't mean all your desires will be fulfilled after all. There may be extenuating factors that prevent him from doing so. But again, this doesn't prove that he's good or evil. It just proves he's really pragmatic.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:33   Link #106
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Superficial personality.
I think Suzaku is one of the most complex character in Code Geass.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:34   Link #107
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Please go read the previous posts to see what I mean by superficial personality and repressed personality.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:39   Link #108
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You do realize the "??? Profit" meme is used to describe plans that made no sense and can't work, right?

The "???" is EXACTLY the problem. It doesn't exist, thus the plan fails.
... The ??? stands for the Saber and Shirou loving in the pic I saw. Not really a problem. It most likely stands for [things I won't type but you know what it is].

Quote:
Nobody said it couldn't. The qns I posed though was if Britainnias social fabric made it possible for discrimination to fade and if the britainnian philosophy didn't just keep reinforcing that discrimination by way of reinforcing britainnian superiority.
Possible to fade? Of course it's possible. If it weren't, people like Schneizel and his cohorts wouldn't be as practical as they were. Same for Darlton, and the Student Council.

Suzaku knows it's possible because of the kind Britannians that he's met.

Quote:
Mao mindrapes people by telling them the truth they don't want to hear -_- Again, I'll say that he wanted to die and he rationalized joining the army, perhaps to atone for his fathers killing. At which point, his rationalization to do so would be that he was justified in killing his father because it was hopeless to defy the Britainnians and this was the only choice he felt he could make. Nowhere does him genuinely hoping he can change the system come into play when he makes the decision to join.
Well, that is understandable. Since because we're not really sure for why Suzaku joined the army because of picture drama episode number 6.75 was it.

But the hope that he has is not the hope he had for joining, but the hope he gained from seeing Britannians like Lelouch and Nunnally are no different from the Japanese.

Mutual understanding destroys discrimination, is probably his line of thinking, and terrorism really puts a damper in mutual understanding. Which is also why Suzaku dislikes Lelouch's "terrorism" as Zero as well as the various terrorist groups around the early episodes.

Quote:
Yeah...again, don't see how this has to do with him hoping to change the empire. And Suzaku has killed people in s1, ep6 I think.
It has nothing to do with changing the empire. It's a show of mindset.

Suzaku didn't want people to die so he fought Jesus-style to lessen as many deaths as possible he'd cause in the battlefield. And Jesus-style doesn't mean you don't kill anyone, it means you don't kill unless you have no choice but to do so.

But judging from episode 24-25 and the OP and the preview, Suzaku seems to have thrown that away.

He now accepts Lelouch's method to the madness to achieve his goals.

Quote:
Yeah, but he's probably also pragmatic enough to know when that may not be possible. Just because you're pragmatic doesn't mean all your desires will be fulfilled after all. There may be extenuating factors that prevent him from doing so. But again, this doesn't prove that he's good or evil. It just proves he's really pragmatic.
Just like how Lelouch being pragmatic doesn't mean he can actually change the world due to extenuating factors, amirite?

Yes, I know. No one has a secure future in Code Geass concerning their goals.

But what I'm trying to say is that Schneizel is in the best position to effect such change and Suzaku should've understood that by now. If not, I'd slap him if possible.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:45   Link #109
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
... The ??? stands for the Saber and Shirou loving in the pic I saw. Not really a problem. It most likely stands for [things I won't type but you know what it is].
Well, treat me like Shirou then, because I don't know what it is. And please make up your mind; is Suzaku trying to change Britannia by putting Schneizel in power, or is Suzaku trying to change Britannia by somehow miraculously make the Emperor a better person? You suggested both, yet they are mutually exclusive.

The "???" is the sticking point; there is no clear path for Suzaku to reach the goal you say he is going for. And yet he is killing people to get there.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:53   Link #110
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Well, treat me like Shirou then, because I don't know what it is.
It's up to Suzaku in the end. I'm no crystal ball reading wizard. All I know is what Suzaku is doing now and what he aims for.

I will not try to inject what does not exist as Suzaku's plan because it isn't concrete yet.

Quote:
And please make up your mind; is Suzaku trying to change Britannia by putting Schneizel in power, or is Suzaku trying to change Britannia by somehow miraculously make the Emperor a better person? You suggested both, yet they are mutually exclusive.

Unless you're an idiot, you know that Schneizel will become the Emperor one day if Lelouch loses his bid for world domination. Currying favor from both men will most certainly allow Suzaku a fair amount of influence in the incoming imperial succession.

Quote:
The "???" is the sticking point; there is no clear path for Suzaku to reach the goal you say he is going for. And yet he is killing people to get there.
Just like Lelouch is killing people to get to where he wants to be? Even if you say Lelouch is a genius, do you actually know what he'll do to resolve the chaos he'll cause and to become the "man who rules the world"?

No, then don't ask me that.

What we know is that both of them will walk their respective paths and that they have goals that they are aiming for. Leave them be for now.
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Old 2008-04-13, 12:54   Link #111
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Possible to fade? Of course it's possible. If it weren't, people like Schneizel and his cohorts wouldn't be as practical as they were. Same for Darlton, and the Student Council.

Suzaku knows it's possible because of the kind Britannians that he's met.
We have no idea of how practical Schneizels cohorts are. And again, pragmatism <> discrimination fading, not does it mean good or evil. As for Darlton and the Student Council, that's 4 out of how many people?? And that's not even counting Nina inside.

Suzaku knows that because of like 6, maybe 7 britainnians he's met that's nice to him, it's possible to change the system? As opposed to the countless others he hasn't met and who aren't that nice? I mean, let's consider that there were about 5 britainnians bullying the hotdog vendor, maybe 2-3 more who scribbled on Suzakus tshirt at school, the other maids who bullied Kallens real mother, Kallens adopted mother, the britainnian yakuza, the britainnian noble who was beating the stuffing out of that little japanese boy who was distributing fliers, most of the people in the inner sanctum of the tower of babel, all the army troops who basically just killed japanese non-discriminately.... Yeah...I have a hard time believe that, as you put it, Suzaku knows its possible. -_- He might THINK its possible, maybe hope it's possible, but knows it? Yeah...kind of a stretch there.



Quote:
But the hope that he has is not the hope he had for joining, but the hope he gained from seeing Britannians like Lelouch and Nunnally are no different from the Japanese.

Mutual understanding destroys discrimination, is probably his line of thinking, and terrorism really puts a damper in mutual understanding. Which is also why Suzaku dislikes Lelouch's "terrorism" as Zero as well as the various terrorist groups around the early episodes.
So does invading other peoples countrys, giving them numbers for names, etc etc etc. Like Vallen said, what Suzaku is doing now is spreading discrimination which somehow conflicts with your ideas about how his true ideal is to prevent discrimination.

And again, like I mentioned before, I doubt he had the hope of changing the system from within when he joined the army. Not going to state it again. It's only a few posts back anyway. One might wonder if the real reason he doesn't like Zero and his OoTBK is because they're messing up his idealized and rationalized vision of himself and showing that basically, he didn't have to kill his father years ago and that the britainnians can be defeated.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with changing the empire. It's a show of mindset.

Suzaku didn't want people to die so he fought Jesus-style to lessen as many deaths as possible he'd cause in the battlefield. And Jesus-style doesn't mean you don't kill anyone, it means you don't kill unless you have no choice but to do so.
Uh...so what's this got to do with his hope or whatever? Or anything?


Quote:
Just like how Lelouch being pragmatic doesn't mean he can actually change the world due to extenuating factors, amirite?

Yes, I know. No one has a secure future in Code Geass concerning their goals.

But what I'm trying to say is that Schneizel is in the best position to effect such change and Suzaku should've understood that by now. If not, I'd slap him if possible.
Technically, Lelouch is not totally pragmatic, or at least not to the extent that I think Schneizel is. I mean, the guy's basically doing all this for his sister, which isn't the most pragmatic thing in the world to do. And he also basically abandons the OoTBK for a shortwhile for his sister. Again, not the most pragmatic thing to do. So it is possible for Lelouch to affect the desire to change the world if only because his idealism at times > his pragmatism and part of the values he's idealistic about is the protection of the weak/equality etc, which means he might be able to bring about equality even if it wasn't pragmatic to do so.

Schneizel? Again, not enough said about his character at times.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:00   Link #112
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Unless you're an idiot, you know that Schneizel will become the Emperor one day if Lelouch loses his bid for world domination. Currying favor from both men will most certainly allow Suzaku a fair amount of influence in the incoming imperial succession.
Wasn't there a crown prince ; and it wasn't Schneizel? It was an older guy.


Quote:
Just like Lelouch is killing people to get to where he wants to be? Even if you say Lelouch is a genius, do you actually know what he'll do to resolve the chaos he'll cause and to become the "man who rules the world"?
In all honesty, it's easier to change and control the world when you've conquered/replaced the main military power. A lot easier than trying to change it from within. For the first, you just need to kill the right people, for the second, there are a lot more social factors to consider. Hence, Lelouch's plan seems a lot more feasible, especially with the geass.

As for that quote about him ruling the world, wasn't the exact line the man who would have the world in his hand? It's got slightly diff. connotations.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:02   Link #113
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
It's up to Suzaku in the end. I'm no crystal ball reading wizard. All I know is what Suzaku is doing now and what he aims for.

I will not try to inject what does not exist as Suzaku's plan because it isn't concrete yet.




Unless you're an idiot, you know that Schneizel will become the Emperor one day if Lelouch loses his bid for world domination. Currying favor from both men will most certainly allow Suzaku a fair amount of influence in the incoming imperial succession.



Just like Lelouch is killing people to get to where he wants to be? Even if you say Lelouch is a genius, do you actually know what he'll do to resolve the chaos he'll cause and to become the "man who rules the world"?

No, then don't ask me that.

What we know is that both of them will walk their respective paths and that they have goals that they are aiming for. Leave them be for now.
Suzaku is currently CAUSING chaos by invading Europe. I fail to see how that have bothered you at all.
And I know how Lulu will resolve the chaos after Britannia falls. He will set up a new government, with or without himself in charge. It's hard, but it has been done before and hardly impossible.

And no, Suzaku can't curry favour from both the Emperor and the successor. The successor has to take the Throne by force, so Suzaku will have to pick a side.
Since Suzaku chose to be a Knight of the Round, it shall now be his JOB to keep the current Emperor exactly where he is, and kill anyone who try to overthrow him. If Schneizel become the new Emperor, it is because Suzaku had already been killed trying to defend the old Emperor.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:04   Link #114
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
We have no idea of how practical Schneizels cohorts are. And again, pragmatism <> discrimination fading, not does it mean good or evil. As for Darlton and the Student Council, that's 4 out of how many people?? And that's not even counting Nina inside.

Suzaku knows that because of like 6, maybe 7 britainnians he's met that's nice to him, it's possible to change the system? As opposed to the countless others he hasn't met and who aren't that nice? I mean, let's consider that there were about 5 britainnians bullying the hotdog vendor, maybe 2-3 more who scribbled on Suzakus tshirt at school, the other maids who bullied Kallens real mother, Kallens adopted mother, the britainnian yakuza, the britainnian noble who was beating the stuffing out of that little japanese boy who was distributing fliers, most of the people in the inner sanctum of the tower of babel, all the army troops who basically just killed japanese non-discriminately.... Yeah...I have a hard time believe that, as you put it, Suzaku knows its possible. -_- He might THINK its possible, maybe hope it's possible, but knows it? Yeah...kind of a stretch there.
One simple answer, and fitting for Suzaku: Even if it's a stretch, he believes in people's kindness, just like with Lelouch and Nunnally. Especially, Euphemia, and the Special Envoy that gave him the chance to change his future.

You may say naive, but that's Suzaku.

Quote:
So does invading other peoples countrys, giving them numbers for names, etc etc etc. Like Vallen said, what Suzaku is doing now is spreading discrimination which somehow conflicts with your ideas about how his true ideal is to prevent discrimination.
Suzaku has to do it. He has to. It's his job. He can make their lives better in the end if he can change everything.

All Suzaku is thinking about now is his plan to change everything not minding the sacrifice now.

Quote:
And again, like I mentioned before, I doubt he had the hope of changing the system from within when he joined the army. Not going to state it again. It's only a few posts back anyway. One might wonder if the real reason he doesn't like Zero and his OoTBK is because they're messing up his idealized and rationalized vision of himself and showing that basically, he didn't have to kill his father years ago and that the britainnians can be defeated.
He hopes because he's seen Britannians that are actually kind. Refer to Suzaku's simpleness and trust of others. That is where his hope lies from. From that single summer he had with Lelouch and Nunnally, which was heavily reinforced by his inclusion in Special Envoy and to his gradual climb in rank.

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Uh...so what's this got to do with his hope or whatever? Or anything?
.... why do you always try and mix everything I say with each other?

I was only explaining the fact that while Suzaku before had this "lawful" way of doing things, Suzaku now doesn't or at least, bends a lot.

Quote:
Technically, Lelouch is not totally pragmatic, or at least not to the extent that I think Schneizel is. I mean, the guy's basically doing all this for his sister, which isn't the most pragmatic thing in the world to do. And he also basically abandons the OoTBK for a shortwhile for his sister. Again, not the most pragmatic thing to do. So it is possible for Lelouch to affect the desire to change the world if only because his idealism at times > his pragmatism and part of the values he's idealistic about is the protection of the weak/equality etc, which means he might be able to bring about equality even if it wasn't pragmatic to do so.

Schneizel? Again, not enough said about his character at times.
Well, that's true. Schneizel's basically doing what he does for the Empire, which includes a large number of people. So idealism wouldn't work. But his pragmatism will force the Empire to follow his lead in the inclusion of the conquered.

They are the ones who will "breathe new life" into the empire.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:04   Link #115
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At this point I kind of wish he would get killed off. Not because I think he's not a worthwhile rival villain character, but just so people will stop complaining about him already. Having to read hundreds upon hundreds of comments on the internet from people who have nothing to offer on the character besides "DIE, BURN IN HELL!" or "F*** SUZAKU" is mentally exhausting. I mean every time he shows up I groan because I know I'm going to have to hear the 2-minutes hate like with Goldstein in 1984, and I'm the Winston Smith wondering what the point is.

The thing is I don't find him the best character either but I don't go around screaming about it every week like some people. He's nowhere near that level of bad and I've seen characters I outright hate that have seen a more subdued reaction from me. If you don't believe me just see my comments on Sunohara Youhei from Clannad.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:05   Link #116
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Hey if they complain, that means they'll keep watching to see it happen
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:08   Link #117
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I do get tired of the constant hate of him.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:11   Link #118
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It was the directors intention for people to hate him, that only means its working Dann. Oh and making money too
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:11   Link #119
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Wasn't there a crown prince ; and it wasn't Schneizel? It was an older guy.
Some pebble in Schneizel's path to ascension.

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In all honesty, it's easier to change and control the world when you've conquered/replaced the main military power. A lot easier than trying to change it from within. For the first, you just need to kill the right people, for the second, there are a lot more social factors to consider. Hence, Lelouch's plan seems a lot more feasible, especially with the geass.
Yeah, just like when the USSR, Rome, and China collapsed, their respective regions were plunged into despair and darkness.

Besides, it also works for Suzaku as well. Whoever holds the power in Britannia CHANGES the world.

Quote:
As for that quote about him ruling the world, wasn't the exact line the man who would have the world in his hand? It's got slightly diff. connotations.
That's basically ruling the world. You hold the world in your hand, you rule it.

Quote:
Suzaku is currently CAUSING chaos by invading Europe. I fail to see how that have bothered you at all.
Yeah, and Lelouch is also causing chaos in Japan. Both are trying to achieve their goals by doing so. One is on orders, the other, of his own free will.

Quote:
And I know how Lulu will resolve the chaos after Britannia falls. He will set up a new government, with or without himself in charge. It's hard, but it has been done before and hardly impossible.
Yeah, just like changing a empire isn't hard as long as its people are properly educated. It's hardly impossible as well.

Quote:
And no, Suzaku can't curry favour from both the Emperor and the successor. The successor has to take the Throne by force, so Suzaku will have to pick a side. Since Suzaku chose to be a Knight of the Round, it shall now be his JOB to keep the current Emperor exactly where he is, and kill anyone who try to overthrow him. If Schneizel become the new Emperor, it is because Suzaku had already been killed trying to defend the old Emperor.
The Emperor won't be alive forever. Someone will take the Throne sooner or later and Schneizel is the only one capable of doing so.

Dipping on both sides of the pond isn't impossible.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:12   Link #120
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
One simple answer, and fitting for Suzaku: Even if it's a stretch, he believes in people's kindness, just like with Lelouch and Nunnally. Especially, Euphemia, and the Special Envoy that gave him the chance to change his future.

You may say naive, but that's Suzaku.



Suzaku has to do it. He has to. It's his job. He can make their lives better in the end if he can change everything.

All Suzaku is thinking about now is his plan to change everything not minding the sacrifice now.
It certainly wasn't kindness that gave Suzaku his current job; he sold a man like a bag of silver for it, as I said before. Kindness has nothing to do with Suzaku anymore, if it ever did before.

And as I keep saying, there is no evidence anywhere that he has a plan for changing anything at all. His current job is to make his "plan" harder to achieve, thus the longer he works for the Emperor, the further away he is to his goal.

Lulu has a plan. And everyone who works with him know what it is, as it is simple and worked many times before. While your only explanation on how Suzaku supposedly had a plan was based on the fact that you think he need one, while having no idea what it actually is.

Quote:
The Emperor won't be alive forever. Someone will take the Throne sooner or later and Schneizel is the only one capable of doing so.
Schneizel wouldn't wait for the Emperor to die of old age, if he was interested in the Throne. Suzaku will need to die before Schneizel take power.

Quote:
Yeah, just like changing a empire isn't hard as long as its people are properly educated. It's hardly impossible as well.
Educated by who's orders?
The people aren't going to be "educated" by anything except the current Emperor's views.
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