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Old 2008-03-13, 01:05   Link #481
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It depends on what period you're comparing. If it's 1920s tanks (just the T-18), the Pumpkin Scissors versions are superior for most purposes, while some 1930s tanks (Pz.III & Pz.IV, T-26 & BT series) are quite a bit better. In any case, the Pumpkin Scissors tanks are woefully underarmed (admittedly, they'd have to be otherwise Orlando would have been very dead). Most pointedly, there's a distinct lack of effective machine guns.
Are you sure about that?



Something tells me the one in this pic wouldnt have much trouble going up against of T-34s or even a Panzer VI given its large main gun and decently sloped armor. Aside from the lack of machine guns, the Pumpkin Scissors-verse has tanks that appear to me atleast, to be of similar tank on tank capability to the 30's and 40's models of our universe.

The lack of machine guns is just the way the political and technological development tree worked out in that universe and the development of faster firing small arms is part of the plot to an extent if you remember (im assuming you watched the series).

The tank with the autoloader in episode two appears to be comparable in tank on tank capability to late Panzer III or mid range Panzer IV.
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Old 2008-03-13, 02:12   Link #482
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
Are you sure about that?

<SNIP Picture>

Something tells me the one in this pic wouldnt have much trouble going up against of T-34s or even a Panzer VI given its large main gun and decently sloped armor.
Hah! That's pretty much a Tiger I turret on a T-34 chassis! I admit that I completely forgot about it since I can't recall ever seeing something like that in combat. Instead, I based my arguments solely on how well the tanks on-screen performed. I can well imagine the pictured beastie doing much better.

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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
Aside from the lack of machine guns, the Pumpkin Scissors-verse has tanks that appear to me atleast, to be of similar tank on tank capability to the 30's and 40's models of our universe.
I can't recall any tank on tank combat in the anime, so I'm not really sure how they'd comparatively perform. However, it doesn't look like they have very good HE shells and with no other armament (which would sort of explain the chemical weapons), it's sort of hard to see what they're supposed to accomplish outside of an anti-tank role. Moreover, the lack of radios and their seeming lack of mobility will hurt them in this arena.

Tank on tank capability is only one aspect of how effective a tank is, and the other aspects aren't all that impressive (except for the general shape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
The lack of machine guns is just the way the political and technological development tree worked out in that universe and the development of faster firing small arms is part of the plot to an extent if you remember (im assuming you watched the series).
Yep. That and the lack of radios make them increasingly less useful.

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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
The tank with the autoloader in episode two appears to be comparable in tank on tank capability to late Panzer III or mid range Panzer IV.
I dunno. If I recall correctly, it looked like a early-model Panzer IV turret on top of a T-34 chassis. However, the rounds didn't seem to do much more damage on impact than a .50 BMG. A clean hit from a 75mm round (or even a 37mm) would all but blow a man in half. Admittedly, it certainly looked as if it could do way more damage than that.
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Old 2008-03-13, 09:07   Link #483
Icehawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tran
Yep. That and the lack of radios make them increasingly less useful.
Ah yes, I forgot about that aspect, they did lack radios. I wonder if thats just because they were lone vehicles though? It would be interesting if they revealed more about the status of radio tech in that universe.

Quote:
I dunno. If I recall correctly, it looked like a early-model Panzer IV turret on top of a T-34 chassis. However, the rounds didn't seem to do much more damage on impact than a .50 BMG. A clean hit from a 75mm round (or even a 37mm) would all but blow a man in half. Admittedly, it certainly looked as if it could do way more damage than that.
Not sure where you're getting the impression of weak HE shells from. The shots fired by the autoloader tank in episode 2 have pretty decent sized explosions and tossed Randel around pretty good before he managed to get in close. Randel never sustained any direct hits. That new APC vehicle that was revealed in episode 4 lobbed about 3 or 4 HE rounds at the captured autoloader tank destroying it thoroughly.

Last edited by Icehawk; 2008-03-13 at 09:22.
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Old 2008-03-13, 10:48   Link #484
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
Not sure where you're getting the impression of weak HE shells from. The shots fired by the autoloader tank in episode 2 have pretty decent sized explosions and tossed Randel around pretty good before he managed to get in close. Randel never sustained any direct hits.
In real life, a good HE round that can "toss" someone about will also shred him with sharpnel. The danger zone for 75mm shells is a 20m radius, so the HE fire from the Pz.IV/34 tank must be significantly weaker than that. Unfortunately, Pumpkin Scissors uses "Hollywood" explosives, so it doesn't fare all that well with real world comparisons.

By the way, the hit that I'm referring to happened after Orlando managed to get right up against the tank. It managed to get a final shot off that took a chunk out of his left shoulder - if I recall correctly, it led to him being hospitalized.

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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
That new APC vehicle that was revealed in episode 4 lobbed about 3 or 4 HE rounds at the captured autoloader tank destroying it thoroughly.
I don't recall this, but a tank that can be destroyed by small calibre (<150mm) HE fire can't have very good armor.
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Old 2008-03-13, 13:54   Link #485
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
In real life, a good HE round that can "toss" someone about will also shred him with sharpnel. The danger zone for 75mm shells is a 20m radius, so the HE fire from the Pz.IV/34 tank must be significantly weaker than that. Unfortunately, Pumpkin Scissors uses "Hollywood" explosives, so it doesn't fare all that well with real world comparisons.
I would figure since he was "made" to go up against such things, perhaps his big trench coat helps protect him from shrapnel to a certain degree perhaps? The explosions appear enough that they could send bits of shrapnel within a 20 meter range. But you are right, they are more like "hollywood" explosions in that regard.

Quote:
By the way, the hit that I'm referring to happened after Orlando managed to get right up against the tank. It managed to get a final shot off that took a chunk out of his left shoulder - if I recall correctly, it led to him being hospitalized.
Yeah, the round itself didnt actually hit him, the damage he took was just from the muzzle blast of the gun, it fired just above his shoulder.

Quote:
I don't recall this, but a tank that can be destroyed by small calibre (<150mm) HE fire can't have very good armor.
You may be right. But if it were just a testbed platform for the autoloader system, they might not have been concerned with the armor level of it. That being said the first 1 or two hits didnt seem to do much to it, it was the 3rd and 4th hits that occured within quicker succession to the same region that ultimatly turned it into what appeared to be a burning wreck with noticable damage. The shots were made inside a big repair shop so they were from very close range like within 100meters at most. Could that cause the rounds to have greater damage capability since they are travelling at much closer to their maximum muzzle velocity?
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Old 2008-03-13, 15:45   Link #486
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
I would figure since he was "made" to go up against such things, perhaps his big trench coat helps protect him from shrapnel to a certain degree perhaps? The explosions appear enough that they could send bits of shrapnel within a 20 meter range. But you are right, they are more like "hollywood" explosions in that regard.
A man standing within 5m of a 75mm HE ground burst isn't just certain to die; one would expect to find limbs separated from the rest of his body. The only way for Orlando's coat to provide any real protection from real HE rounds would be if it were bulletproof as well; and even that's a stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
Yeah, the round itself didnt actually hit him, the damage he took was just from the muzzle blast of the gun, it fired just above his shoulder.
I may have remembered the scene incorrectly. In any case, the overpressure from a 75mm round fired from so close is likely to cause fatal injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
The shots were made inside a big repair shop so they were from very close range like within 100meters at most. Could that cause the rounds to have greater damage capability since they are travelling at much closer to their maximum muzzle velocity?
The velocity of the round is important for armor-piercing ammunition, but it doesn't affect the damage caused by HE rounds. In the case of the latter, just about all the damage is caused by shrapnel, so range isn't an issue. For that reason, the Germans thought it fit to give their early Pz.IVs low velocity 75mm guns - they were expected to fire HE rounds to support the infantry, and the muzzle velocity wouldn't make much difference.


Off-topic:
If you're interested in the kind of time period Pumpkin Scissors takes place in, make sure to check out Allison to Lilia when it airs in April. It's by the same author who wrote the Kino's Journey books, and I hear that it's even better.
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Old 2008-04-13, 20:07   Link #487
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All else aside, for me it was an enjoyable series to view.
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Old 2009-04-24, 07:24   Link #488
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It's a good show. I wish there was a bigger plot though. It has so much potential, the setting and everything!
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Old 2010-10-11, 17:04   Link #489
Roloko vi Britannia
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I'm on episode 6 and I love it so far I lold when Oland asked Alice for her boob to feed the baby the next episode looks interesting.
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