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Old 2008-04-14, 11:43   Link #201
KrimzonStriker
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And this brings me back to Suzaku. I like Lelouche several times more than Suzaku, but it seems that every thing that Lulu has done is justified. On the other hand Suzaku is considered more evil because he has killed more innocent people. They're both hypocrites, that's all I'm trying to say.
Suzaku never admits it though, while Lelouch does, which makes Suzaku the hypocrite if we go by the dictionaries definition >_>
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Old 2008-04-14, 11:43   Link #202
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Originally Posted by aka Providence View Post
I wasn't saying that Lelouch should do that. Geassing Euphie accidentally and killing her wasn't part of his plan -- if he would sacrifice power for friends then Lulu would have stuck to his original plan, whatever that may have been. Instead, he made a smart choice by using the momentum, which makes the statement 'sacrificing power for friendship' invalid. Plus, he geassed Shirley to keep his identity a secret, once again choosing power over friendship.
You missed several points I guess.
Lelouch was ALWAYS hindered by his feelings despite he used "Zero" as an avatar of his goal.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stay as "ruthless" as he should be, and he got completely overwhelmed when it was related to either Suzaku, Shirley, Euphemia and even C.C in some cases.

As for Geass, vallen already explained: Shirley would hardly betray him and he knows that even if she almost tried to kill him, due to Mao's happy brainmushing experience.
That is to say, there is another big example: Lelouch geassed Suzaku to save his friend.
I'm sorry, but if he wanted to get his goal clear, even at the price of friendship, he could ask Suzaku to create a big rampage with Lancelot, or keep his geass for another time. But no, he saved his "righteous" friend without any hesitation, despite he could simply leave him dead when they are about to be pummeled by the missiles, or ordering him to murder Cornelia etc.

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Originally Posted by aka Providence View Post
I really don't see it in that way. Euphie staying alive won't make the situation worse, since it already was the worst. A lot of people would try to kill Euphie, and Lelouche, as Zero, chose to kill her so that no one else would, in order to strengthen his influence.
Strengthen his influence? Please remember what Lelouch said when he gunned down Euphemia. He even asked C.C to let him take care of Euphemia.

Lelouch was completely struck by grief, but couldn't let Euphie going nuts which would turn to be the very last thing she wished for.
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Even if Lulu geassed Shirley to ease her pain, it only shows that he lacks faith in people, which does not resemble friendship at all.
...? How it is "lacking in faith"?
He had faith to his friend when he had to leave as Zero despite Nunally and the others were under BK custody.
Heck, he even asked to Tamaki and the others to not lay one finger to them, and shirley, still "geassed" trusted him.

It is hardly something else than friendship.

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Originally Posted by aka Providence View Post
And this brings me back to Suzaku. I like Lelouche several times more than Suzaku, but it seems that every thing that Lulu has done is justified. On the other hand Suzaku is considered more evil because he has killed more innocent people. They're both hypocrites, that's all I'm trying to say.
Both hypocrite? While Lelouch used people in some extent, he never hided himself under false idealogy. Even if it is for Nunnaly primerraly, his "change the world" goal is rock solid, be it "evil" or "not".
Lelouch also proved that he isn't giving himself excuses and do things he set from the beginnin.

Suzaku was the utter opposite: he hid himself into the ideal to change the empire from within, as he simply cannot fight along with japanese due of his own "sin".
It is hardly logical to approve that "helping the very empire to change in conquering others country" is good for his own goal.
What about overpowering the Emperor and beat pulp out of him while he was alone with him? after all he is a super human, literally.

Suzaku's goal is just completely a false ideal he created and couldn't follow, especially after euphie death. His actions are going straight into the opposite result he wished for.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:04   Link #203
aka Providence
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Lelouche is a hypocrite, unfortunately because his role as Zero demands him to be. I never said Lulu was a bad person, but as Zero he had used a lot of people to advance his plans, even if never wanted to do so. That, to me, is hypocrisy; it's not bad thing and it makes him more human. Most of my other observations is gut instinct used on something I haven't watched for a lo-o-o-ong time.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:10   Link #204
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He never said he wasn't using them, the very definition of a hypocrite is someone who says something but acts contradictory to that, which he doesn't do and which Suzaku does do
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:18   Link #205
aka Providence
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Lelouch didn't want to kill Euphie, right (did he?)? But because he had geassed her he had no choice but to act as if Euphie was the villian, even if she was doing it against her will. That's hypocrisy, in a way. Of course, I might be missing several facts right now since it's way past midnight and I'm not feeling too well.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:23   Link #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aka Providence View Post
Lelouch didn't want to kill Euphie, right (did he?)? But because he had geassed her he had no choice but to act as if Euphie was the villian, even if she was doing it against her will. That's hypocrisy, in a way.
That is not hypocrisy... that's a change of circumstance which force him to do so...
It would be hypocrisy if Lelouch then rejoice of Euphemia's madness and death, which is not the case.

Or else, basically no one can not be hypocrite if circumstance like this happen -_--
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:26   Link #207
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I guess that's true, I use hypocrisy since I can't find the right word at the moment. However, I do find several things Lulu and Suzaku have in common, but I might just be crazy.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:29   Link #208
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by aka Providence View Post
Lelouch didn't want to kill Euphie, right (did he?)? But because he had geassed her he had no choice but to act as if Euphie was the villian, even if she was doing it against her will. That's hypocrisy, in a way.
What? He was honest with himself, about it, lying isn't actually classified as hypocrisy last time I looked so long as you don't contradict yourself. Did he want to kill her? No, and he was honest with himself on that. Did he need to kill her? Yes, and he was honest with himself about that as well. Did he believe he needed to make the most out of the disastrous situation and use Euphie? Yes he did. Where's the contradiction? Lelouch doesn't bother deluding himself, that's why he shouldn't be classified as a hypocrite. Another point to note is that he detracted as far as he could in the speech to associate what happened to Britannia as a whole instead of just Euphie.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:30   Link #209
evil|plushie
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hypocrisy
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural hy·poc·ri·sies
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion2: an act or instance of hypocrisy
The only way you could argue that Lelouch is a hypocrite is if you brought up his speeches as Zero, about being an ally of justice or whatnot.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:39   Link #210
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He is too an ally of justice, he didn't just believe, he acted on it and promoted it as a part of his personal philosophy onto his country.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:39   Link #211
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I think I had already mentioned that hypocrisy was the closest word I can remember to associate Lelouche with, since I'm quite sleepy and all. In any case I felt that I had to cut Suzaku some slack since something in my gut is telling me that he has other plans aside from joining the Knights, or trying to pull a fast one on the Emperor. I'm hoping that's the case since I'd be bored out of my mind if Suzaku becomes a anti-social enemy. Hell, the deluded Suzaku was more entertaining to me.

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He is too an ally of justice, he didn't just believe he acted on it
now you're just justifying everything Lulu is doing, be it good or bad.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:41   Link #212
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
He is too an ally of justice, he didn't just believe he acted on it
While I don't think too badly of Lelouch, he hasn't completely been an ally of Justice. He did kill those fleeing JLF members that one time.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:50   Link #213
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Justice? that's a matter of perspective. From the oppressed 11's point of view of course he's a saint case closed :P. From the average Britanian he's the harbinger of their demise even though they did nothing wrong. It's really the upper nobility that oppresses the "numbers".

I have to wonder what Suzaku's trying to change in the system though. Before he wanted it to be more fair and just. However, after the tragedy of Euphimia I highly doubt that can ever happen.

SO what is he trying to change now? Maybe in his deluded broken mind he thinks he can end all wars by conquering everyone else. Grander rulers have thought the very same things.
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Old 2008-04-14, 12:55   Link #214
evil|plushie
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I doubt even the oppressed 11s would like him just blowing up escaping JLF members.

All I'm saying it that's not what an Ally of Justice does. However, I don't think Lelouch really thinks of himself as one since he knows the sins he'll have to commit and bear, but since I'm going by the dictionary definition of hypocrisy, even if Lelouch doesn't believe it himself, he still says it, so he does have moments where he seem hypocritical. But I think he realises that.
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Old 2008-04-14, 13:01   Link #215
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That's kinda a difficult point.
I concur that Lelouch obviously cannot consider himself as "an ally of justice".
But he certainly believes and claim the "strong oppression the weak is unforgivable" as it is the very wrong mindset which is threatening the world, hence Nunally in the same process.

But that, it is another story: we are in Suzaku's thread, please let's discuss in his respective thread for that
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Old 2008-04-14, 13:06   Link #216
evil|plushie
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As it is right now, I only see a few ways for Suzaku to change the system.

a) Marry someone of noble blood and do a Delita from FFT
b) Kill off the Emperor himself and become the new emperor.
c) Support the most likely candidate for the throne and help him depose of the old emperor.
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Old 2008-04-14, 13:10   Link #217
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the 3rd is the mostly likely to happen. If Suzaku really wanted to kill the Emperor he could have let Luleouch geass him they were the only ones in the room.

The marrying noble blood is a grand idea but would be totally opposed by the other nobles. Just like how they treated Marianna (Lulu's mom)
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Old 2008-04-14, 13:24   Link #218
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^ exactly, that is the reason why Suzaku was kinda ridiculous here:
Why didn't he let Lelouch brainwashing the emperor, so the puppet would change the empire without any bloodshed?

There isn't any good reason not doing so. If he can sell his own friend for his goal, I don't think using the emperor as a puppet to avoid wars etc would be a worse wager.
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Old 2008-04-14, 13:33   Link #219
Westlo
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^ That's assuming he would believe Lelouch wouldn't kill him in the first place which would just set off a war of succession and prompt the EU and China to invade. And who's to say that Lelouch would've won the Geass "draw" or duel against Charles. V.V may have let slip to Suzaku that Charles had Geass too...

Also Lelouch can't exactly use a broad Geass like "Make good changes to the empire" can he? Determine good, good for the people or good for the empire?
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Old 2008-04-14, 13:34   Link #220
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
As it is right now, I only see a few ways for Suzaku to change the system.

a) Marry someone of noble blood and do a Delita from FFT
b) Kill off the Emperor himself and become the new emperor.
c) Support the most likely candidate for the throne and help him depose of the old emperor.
That's assuming that he still wants to change Britannian ideals from within like he used to. He's screwed up enough right now that I don't even know if he cares about justice and equity for the people anymore. Before, he at least realized that he did and endured unjust things in order for him to try to achieve a position from which he can restore justice to Japan. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he's so broken right now that he just wants to enforce an absolute order or install his own perverted vision of a "proper" world order.
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