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Old 2008-04-20, 00:08   Link #321
Kamui4356
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Sick if true. Consdiering it would actually be more difficult to do things that way with the animals resisting, the only possible explaination is that the people are sadistic bastards. Though I don't consider peta a reliable source given their obvious bias.

And no I didn't watch the video. If that is what's on it I have no desire to.
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Old 2008-04-20, 22:20   Link #322
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Holy Mother of God...

That was the most unpleasant thing I've seen in a long, long time. I can't believe people actually do that. It was morbid and horrific. I seriously discourage anyone who has even the slightest care for animals from watching that video, unless you're really desensitized to suffering. I didn't make it through the whole thing, after I saw that blood-soaked, hardly recognizable creature that'd been skinned alive blink into the camera and they started working on the next one, I just couldn't take it.

Seriously messed up.
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Old 2008-04-20, 22:37   Link #323
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You'd be surprised to see what people can do to feed their families.
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Old 2008-04-20, 22:48   Link #324
teachopvutru
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Why don't they kill the animals before skinning them, though? Since that would provide them meat, and the animals wouldn't have to feel the pain, either... (Well, unless they aren't edible, I guess they still could have eaten them after the skinning)

I'm not gonna watch the video since I doubt it will do me any goods...
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Old 2008-04-20, 22:55   Link #325
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Urgh, I would advise you to not watch the video. I had to look away many times, and I'm somewhat strong when it comes to things like this.

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Originally Posted by tiachopvutru View Post
Why don't they kill the animals before skinning them, though? Since that would provide them meat, and the animals wouldn't have to feel the pain, either... (Well, unless they aren't edible, I guess they still could have eaten them after the skinning)
You want my guess? It would be that to kill them, they would ruin the fur. In the video (and you didn't watch it), they start with the head or legs so the fur stays whole as much as possible. That's all I will reveal.

EDIT: This is just a guess, so please, I don't need PM's about how I know this.

Last edited by KholdStare; 2008-04-20 at 23:10.
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Old 2008-04-20, 23:04   Link #326
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You'd be surprised to see what people can do to feed their families.
Yes, I am aware that these people aren't doing this for fun, that it's the result of decadent consumers hungry for fur, and that the workers usually don't have a choice if they want food on the table.

Regardless of that, it's horrific there's actually a demand for these animals to be skinned alive. I know nothing absolutely about skinning, could anyone more enlightened explain what kind of benefits there are to skinning them alive?
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Old 2008-04-21, 00:47   Link #327
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Quote:
Regardless of that, it's horrific there's actually a demand for these animals to be skinned alive. I know nothing absolutely about skinning, could anyone more enlightened explain what kind of benefits there are to skinning them alive?
When the animal dies, the skin sticks to the meat, and it's harder or almost impossible to take out cleanly.
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Old 2008-04-21, 01:06   Link #328
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"Humanely" skinning for fur is best done immediately after death. It can be done cleanly soon after death (usually death by bullet through skull) -- this idea of skinning them alive just fails to have any business reasoning (struggling animals damage fur, I'm surprised they don't get the crap bit out of them, etc) .... the only thing I can remotely think of is that bullets are too expensive? I can't imagine any furrier knowingly buying fur obtained this way. This also may be one farm -- period. I don't trust PETA at all -- they're loonies, I've dealt with them. They could be tarring thousands of farms with this one film of one location.

However, at best, this is f*cked up ignorance on the part of whoever owned that business, at worst its just straight-ahead sadism. People simply did not get through most of history getting their clothes by skinning animals alive.... o.O
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Old 2008-04-21, 01:17   Link #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
"Humanely" skinning for fur is best done immediately after death. It can be done cleanly soon after death (usually death by bullet through skull) -- this idea of skinning them alive just fails to have any business reasoning (struggling animals damage fur, I'm surprised they don't get the crap bit out of them, etc) .... the only thing I can remotely think of is that bullets are too expensive? I can't imagine any furrier knowingly buying fur obtained this way. This also may be one farm -- period. I don't trust PETA at all -- they're loonies, I've dealt with them. They could be tarring thousands of farms with this one film of one location.

However, at best, this is f*cked up ignorance on the part of whoever owned that business, at worst its just straight-ahead sadism. People simply did not get through most of history getting their clothes by skinning animals alive.... o.O
Although this is going against all of the emotional anti-skinning hate so far, Vexx stated a very important point. Just because in this specific video showing this specific farm that people skin animals alive, that doesn't mean every other farm in China do so. While it is sad that these things do happen, it is often not good to generalize and over-generalize.

And also, I'll still stick with the argument that they want the fur whole without any bullet holes/scratches/cuts, so that's why they don't kill the animals but just beat them. Well, at least they could beat them unconscious, jeez.

Last edited by KholdStare; 2008-04-21 at 02:10.
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Old 2008-04-21, 01:41   Link #330
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On a completely off-topic note, thanks to all the advertising links, I just found out that Vexx is a platformer videogame for PS2, XBox and Gamecube.

It doesn't make sense to skin an animal while it's alive. Like others have pointed out, you are far more likely to damage the fur while the animal is alive and struggling. Now, the Chinese do cook some animals while its still alive, because it'd taste fresher that way, but that's an entirely different story. Similarly, Japanese sushi chefs fillet eels and other fish while they're still alive, to retain freshness.

It's the same kind of "cruelty", but for different reasons. That said, this particular tanner would probably need to be investigated further. Anything to do with meat or fur is likely to involve some cruelty. It's a matter of how much you can avoid.
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Old 2008-04-21, 02:27   Link #331
teachopvutru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
And also, I'll still stick with the argument that they want the fur whole without any bullet holes/scratches/cuts, so that's why they don't kill the animals but just beat them. Well, at least they could beat them unconscious, jeez.
What about poison though? This way there won't be any bullet holes/scratches/cuts.

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On a completely off-topic note, thanks to all the advertising links, I just found out that Vexx is a platformer videogame for PS2, XBox and Gamecube.
Lol... it also made me chuckle when I found out about it while browsing the game list a couple of days ago. Wonder if that's where Vexx got his username from.
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Old 2008-04-21, 02:29   Link #332
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Quote:
Wonder if that's where Vexx got his username from.
I think he's stated somewhere in the deep, black hole of the forum archives that he used a name he had for an old RPG tabletop character of his... but I'd rather he answered that for me, for legal reasons
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Old 2008-04-21, 04:29   Link #333
Kamui4356
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They don't usually use the fur from the head as far as I know. The only reason I could see to not do something like shoot them is you don't want blood splatter on the fur. However there are lots of other ways they could kill the animal first. The only reason to do it this way is sadism. Even if they did something like hang the animals just before skinning it would be a step up and any time wasted by killing them first would be saved by them not struggling.
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Old 2008-04-21, 10:20   Link #334
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Quote:
The only reason to do it this way is sadism.
People who do that don't do it because they're sadists. They do it because they want to put food on the table and they're told to skin them that way. It's really really simple-minded to believe that those people get satisfaction out of killing the animals that way, and that they're in the job for that.
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Old 2008-04-21, 13:15   Link #335
Vexx
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Originally Posted by tiachopvutru View Post
Lol... it also made me chuckle when I found out about it while browsing the game list a couple of days ago. Wonder if that's where Vexx got his username from.
Offtopic but....
I came up with the name in 1985 as an NPC dragon for a tabletop D&D campaign (full name: Vexxallarius Venturi --- badly mangled mixing of latin and an Italian name would be "silver-high-velocity-throat") - nickname: Vexx
I started using it online as a nick in IRC and Usenet in the late '80s (NASA:JSC access) and first used it on the Web in 1994. Some people actually call me that in real life

The VEXX game came much later... pity they didn't ask me first (game released in 2003)
I registered vexx.net in 1996 (site is down at the moment) .... someone grabbed vexx.com in 2004 I noted but they've not done much with it.

I figure I'll outlast the game company... and probably any owners of the other vexx.* domains....
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Old 2008-04-21, 17:37   Link #336
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
People who do that don't do it because they're sadists. They do it because they want to put food on the table and they're told to skin them that way. It's really really simple-minded to believe that those people get satisfaction out of killing the animals that way, and that they're in the job for that.
The people who tell them to are. It's less efficent to skin an animal alive than it is to skin something you just killed. It's going to resist meaning it'll take longer and possibly damage the fur. There are a varity of cheap methods availiable to kill the animal quickly without damaging the fur. So why have your workers do things that way unless you get off on torturing animals?
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Old 2008-04-21, 17:40   Link #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
The people who tell them to are. It's less efficent to skin an animal alive than it is to skin something you just killed. It's going to resist meaning it'll take longer and possibly damage the fur. There are a varity of cheap methods availiable to kill the animal quickly without damaging the fur. So why have your workers do things that way unless you get off on torturing animals?
I think you are correct, but once again, just remember that this is just one "fur farm" that does this. It is very possible that most do kill the animals before obtaining the fur.
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Old 2008-04-21, 18:05   Link #338
Kamui4356
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I think you are correct, but once again, just remember that this is just one "fur farm" that does this. It is very possible that most do kill the animals before obtaining the fur.
Probably. To be honest, I wouldn't put it past peta to have actually arranged it to create a backlash against the fur industry. After that thing a few years ago when a peta animal shelter was going around collecting dogs and cats, saying they were a no kill shelter then immediatly euthanizing them, then dumping the bodies, I don't put anything past peta. Ethical treatment of animals my ass. Sure most of them wouldn't have been adopted and would have had to be euthanized anyway, but telling people you're a no kill shelter then killing the dogs in your van before you even get them there?
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Old 2008-04-22, 17:50   Link #339
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PETA does certainly give animal-rights people a bad name... But what gets in my craw is that whenever someone says "Hmm maybe we could use cell culture techniques and in silico model testing for corrosivity trials" or "I think fur farming is unethical" theres always a slog of people going "YOU PETA NUTJOB ****ER" and someone invariably links articles like the one posted above.
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Old 2008-04-22, 19:15   Link #340
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
People who do that don't do it because they're sadists. They do it because they want to put food on the table and they're told to skin them that way. It's really really simple-minded to believe that those people get satisfaction out of killing the animals that way, and that they're in the job for that.
You're probably right, but we can't make generalizations. In my area of New York I've seen people perform drive-by shootings of deer - it's for fun (I'm not the hunter type, don't ask me how it's fun). We also had the pleasurable experience of a wounded deer struggling onto our property - the hunters had shot it with a bow and arrow. The hunters wanted to take it away, but since it was shot out of season the police were called in to handle it instead.

I wouldn't go so far as to call hunters sadists. Shooting with a bow and arrow is probably just part of the sport. But drive-by shootings on wild animals - that one doesn't make much sense to me.
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