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Old 2008-04-21, 21:31   Link #221
4Tran
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
After watching that EEU battle I was wondering. Where are the jet fighters? Surely a squadron of F-22's would've wasted that entire defense line of Knightmares.
Aside from the standard mecha bonus, aircraft by themselves haven't historically been too effective at causing significant damage to armored units.

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I think I'm one of the few people out there who'd pay to see an anime with real world weapons (or near-real) with real tactics, employment, blah blah blah...

Why not? You can do with animation what would be too costly to do in real life (TV, movie).
Your best bets might be works like Patlabor or SDF Macross (even though the latter are ridiculously advanced). There's other older works out there like VOTOMs, but their avoidance of the standard mecha bonus varies to a great degree.
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Old 2008-04-21, 22:05   Link #222
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Aside from the standard mecha bonus, aircraft by themselves haven't historically been too effective at causing significant damage to armored units.
But there's no radar jamming devices (N-Jammer or minsokvy), surely jet fighters can carry enough payload to cause enough damage or break a hole in the EEU lines for their knightmares to break through.

And as we've seen the frames' armor aren't exactly godlike either.
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Old 2008-04-21, 22:09   Link #223
ashlay
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
But there's no radar jamming devices (N-Jammer or minsokvy), surely jet fighters can carry enough payload to cause enough damage or break a hole in the EEU lines for their knightmares to break through.

And as we've seen the frames' armor aren't exactly godlike either.
Britannia would prefer to keep the buildings intact when they conquer them.
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Old 2008-04-21, 22:17   Link #224
Bballmvp4
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Completely change of topic. Lelou's new contact. Here's my major question, can he actually see out of that eye when the contacts in?

In my head I'd say know, the geass is visible normally, so unless the contact has a special filter I don't under stand how he can see and the geass be non visible.

well, the contact is just a colored contact but specially made (whatever that means) he can still see out of the eye because it only covers the iris and you dont use your iris to see.

this assumes he doesnt use his pupil to use the geass.
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Old 2008-04-21, 23:54   Link #225
4Tran
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
But there's no radar jamming devices (N-Jammer or minsokvy), surely jet fighters can carry enough payload to cause enough damage or break a hole in the EEU lines for their knightmares to break through.

And as we've seen the frames' armor aren't exactly godlike either.
It's not really a question of weapon payload; it's that aircraft aren't particularly good at spotting and hitting moving ground targets unless they're either very low-flying or have long loiter times, preferably both. In the latter case, they become extremely vulnerable to ground fire. It's pretty much the historical reason why enemy ground forces have to be defeated by other ground forces.
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Old 2008-04-21, 23:59   Link #226
KrimzonStriker
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Well, you also have to note that we have no idea if Britannia had even achieved Ariel superiority in during that battle with the EU to begin with, plus the beach head looked naturally rocky which suggests fortifications and entrenchment as well. And in almost every battle in Area 11 they re-framed from using their advantage in the air due to natural barriers and attempting to locate the JLF headquarters like in Narita or due to sabotage by the Order and the god like mop up of the remnants by Gawain's Hadron cannons >_>
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:01   Link #227
Bballmvp4
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's not really a question of weapon payload; it's that aircraft aren't particularly good at spotting and hitting moving ground targets unless they're either very low-flying or have long loiter times, preferably both. In the latter case, they become extremely vulnerable to ground fire. It's pretty much the historical reason why enemy ground forces have to be defeated by other ground forces.
Thats what Specter gunships are for. They can attack from high altitudes and mathimatically plot a course to keep a steady stream of fire on targets.
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:05   Link #228
KrimzonStriker
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We don't even know if Britannia had Ariel superiority against the EU to do that though, and even against insurgents and the like they were hiding either behind lots of rock or in urban battle grounds which makes air power far more difficult to implement for Britannia I would imagine >_>
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:18   Link #229
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Bballmvp4 View Post
Thats what Specter gunships are for. They can attack from high altitudes and mathimatically plot a course to keep a steady stream of fire on targets.
The AC-130 neither is particularly good at defeating enemy armor, nor does it attack from a very high altitude. Besides, do the Britannians have an analogue to it?

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
We don't even know if Britannia had Ariel superiority against the EU to do that though, and even against insurgents and the like they were hiding either behind lots of rock or in urban battle grounds which makes air power far more difficult to implement for Britannia I would imagine >_>
Britannia effectively had aerial superiority since they had no problems inserting the Lancelot. However, you're quite correct that any sort of cover severely limits the effectiveness of airpower.
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Old 2008-04-22, 00:22   Link #230
KrimzonStriker
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Lancelot did things on its own last I recall, at least according to the conversation from Schniezel so he wasn't exactly 'inserted' by Britannia. And if he manages to pawn off an entire company of Panzers in short order I wouldn't think it a stretch for Suzaku to have overcome any Ariel resistance put up by the EU with relative ease
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Old 2008-04-22, 01:02   Link #231
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Lancelot did things on its own last I recall, at least according to the conversation from Schniezel so he wasn't exactly 'inserted' by Britannia. And if he manages to pawn off an entire company of Panzers in short order I wouldn't think it a stretch for Suzaku to have overcome any Ariel resistance put up by the EU with relative ease
One thing we have to remember is that Knightmares are not perpetual machines. Even the all-mighty Lancelot need recharge after a long battle. Another factor is that troops in Europe can re-occupy areas Lancelot cleared out immediately after Suzaku leaves.

With these in mind, it can explain why Europe could still hold out. Individual Super-units can perform pin-point strikes, but you can't use them to hold territory. As long as Europeans keep tab of where all the super-KMs are in the battlefield, they can organize troop movements around them.
And it is assumed that Britannia doesn't have as many traditional troops as it could have in the battle, because they need to maintain military presence in all the Areas they hold. While on the other hand Europe is united and able to focus absolutely everything on their Western Front.

Another point, is that Knightmare pilots HAVE to be pure Britannian (with Suzaku being the first exception). Thus they might have Area populations as grunt footsoldiers, but their own social code restricts mass recruiting of mecha pilots.
(This is slightly balanced by the fact that civilian Britannians view Knighthood as a means to escape poverty. But one would assume there are strict criterias because being a Knight is one step closer to being a noble, and existing nobles are not known to encourage social advancement. Lulu's mother is one such example of someone who is looked down upon by others.)

All things concerned, it isn't surprising that EU has numeral superiority and as such could absorb the losses they incur in defence.
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Old 2008-04-22, 04:18   Link #232
Onizuka-GTO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Aside from the standard mecha bonus, aircraft by themselves haven't historically been too effective at causing significant damage to armored units.


Your best bets might be works like Patlabor or SDF Macross (even though the latter are ridiculously advanced). There's other older works out there like VOTOMs, but their avoidance of the standard mecha bonus varies to a great degree.
don't forget Gasaraki.

that anime is so fricking mecha hardcore, it only has three four types of mecha....
well okay just two mass produced, one variant mass production, and biological mecha weapon....

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Old 2008-04-22, 10:03   Link #233
squaresphere
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The one thing that confused me, but its probably more of a plot trick, is why the EU KM charged the Lancelot? From their configuration it would probably safe to say that they're built for long range (the arms are barrels)

That being said, I totatly see the EU KMs out classing the Empire's KM on high ground. They have 2 long range weapons we can see (gun arms) where as the others only have 1 machine gun per mecha.
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Old 2008-04-22, 10:55   Link #234
Strettger
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Just a thought but could Knightmares be considered the successors to tank destroyers in terms of their role as opposed to a replacement for the tank in general?

In the siege of the Embassy I note the prescence of numerous large tanks, the heavy weapons with high recoil, flanked by KMF, agile, lighter guns.
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Old 2008-04-22, 10:58   Link #235
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
The one thing that confused me, but its probably more of a plot trick, is why the EU KM charged the Lancelot? From their configuration it would probably safe to say that they're built for long range (the arms are barrels)
They probably heard the stories of how the legendary 'White Death' can easily block and evade bullets even from merely few feet away.

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Originally Posted by Strettger View Post
Just a thought but could Knightmares be considered the successors to tank destroyers in terms of their role as opposed to a replacement for the tank in general?

In the siege of the Embassy I note the prescence of numerous large tanks, the heavy weapons with high recoil, flanked by KMF, agile, lighter guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Frame

The general faux-history of how Knightmare Frames came about was mentioned and translated long ago, and wiki-ed.
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Old 2008-04-22, 11:47   Link #236
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Aside from the standard mecha bonus, aircraft by themselves haven't historically been too effective at causing significant damage to armored units.
Aircrafts non efective against armored units!? Here are historical examples of very effective armor killers:

Ilyushin Il-2 for WWII

A 10 Thunderbolt II for Gulf War

Armor are weak against air to ground attack (diving bomb, missile, 30+mm shells and other clever weapon) as their armor are mainly designed against ground to ground weapons (landmines, bazooka, canons).
That's why large armored formations include anti aircraft vehicles.
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Old 2008-04-22, 11:48   Link #237
SoldierOfDarkness
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If they are that freaked out by Suzaku whose simply a Knight of 7 I hate to see what the 3, 6, and 1st knights can do or would instill on the battlefield.

Hahah I can just imagine Anya just showing up on the field of battle with her mordred.
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Old 2008-04-22, 11:56   Link #238
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
If they are that freaked out by Suzaku whose simply a Knight of 7 I hate to see what the 3, 6, and 1st knights can do or would instill on the battlefield.

Hahah I can just imagine Anya just showing up on the field of battle with her mordred.
If I was the European Supreme Commander in Code Geass, i would demand all military units to be designed as highly mobile and able to pack up and move at a minute's notice. No point fighting a futile battle, you just have to move back in position once the champion unit retreat for a recharge. As I previously suggested, Britannia likely doesn't have as much usable men as one might believe. They couldn't even spare any of the Knights of the Round when Zero made his first rebellion attempt.
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Old 2008-04-22, 12:01   Link #239
JMvS
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If I was the European Supreme Commander in Code Geass, i would demand all military units to be designed as highly mobile and able to pack up and move at a minute's notice. No point fighting a futile battle, you just have to move back in position once the champion unit retreat for a recharge. As I previously suggested, Britannia likely doesn't have as much usable men as one might believe. They couldn't even spare any of the Knights of the Round when Zero made his first rebellion attempt.
What shocked me during Suzaku's assault was the fact that the Panzer Hummel's near him charged him to be slaugthered by his Maser swords and Slash Harkens instead of widening the gap to encircle him with continuous fire...I have to rewatch the ep but I think I haven't seen a single shot aimed to him...
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Old 2008-04-22, 12:03   Link #240
KrimzonStriker
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They shot him... they just missed or he dodged it. Can't have a main character dying to no-name grunts now can you? >_>
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