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Old 2003-11-16, 06:38   Link #1
Alliepie
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Anime Elitists?

My boyfriend isn't the biggest anime fan... he used to watch the old school stuff and every once in awhile he watches Miyazaki films with me but.... I was talking about the possible release of Witch Hunter Robin on Cartoon Network and how it shouldn't be put on toonami (ugh).... ANywayz... He says that he thinks alot of anime fans are elitist in that we shun the mainstream stuff or act all cool cuz we've seen the original stuff (fansubs and what not)...

How do you guys feel about this? Like... I'm not against anime going more mainstream, because that will bring more fans to the genre, but.... I feel sad for people that only experience anime through cartoon network ...

When I started becoming an anime fan I was the only one in my town that had any real concept of REAL anime in my opinion. Sure pokemon and sailor moon were popular, but it bugged me when people thought that thats all it was and associated me with that. I had one stupid preppy girl say... "Oh... Pokemon! You like that stuff right?" .... I hated that! I'd like to consider myself a little more educated on anime and I always like to keep with the newest stuff if I can (without spending money LOL). Does that make me an elitist? LOL

And with the Witch Hunter Robin thing... Its not toonami material I think. Adult swim is cool, but... how am I an elitist if I think it doesn't belong with dragonballz -_-

Ya know I like to consider myself lucky to have seen Rurouni Kenshin on vhs fansubs way back when..... way before it came out on tv. XD Sure the quality wasn't so good, but dammnit it was made for fans by fans and it felt... truer to the anime in my opinion. I much rather get fansubs then commercial releases.

Just something I was thinking about. Let me know yer opinions XD I is curious to see how everyon feels.
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Old 2003-11-16, 07:28   Link #2
microlith
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"Elitists" suffer from a few common symptoms:

1.) They argue about the sub/dub issue to this day
2.) They tend to drag shows through the dirt if they've been seen by a wide audience
2a.) this does not apply to shows seen before they were on TV, and they will note this.
3.) They make half-ass remarks about fansubs being better than commercial releases solely because fansubs were done by fans, claiming the world about the fansubs being better in every way despite any obvious flaws.
4.) They tend to actively discourage people who are interested in Anime if they have started from stuff like Dragonball Z

Those who think Anime = Pokemon simply don't know any better. Don't worry about them. WHR doesn't exactly belong with DBZ because WHR is aimed at a very different audience, as was Bebop, and several of the Gundam OAVs. Granted the same people might watch them but there are many who will watch DBZ and nothing else.
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Old 2003-11-16, 08:28   Link #3
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I think that people are missing a lot by watching the censored/edited series on most television networks. Here in Venezuela this is less evident (we had once both Saint Seiya and Rurouni Kenshin completely uncut on TV) but now some series (like Inuyasha) have been edited when shown on Cartoon Network.

Sure, watching one of those "slaughtered" series on mainstream TV may be kinda good and serve as an introduction to a horde of new people... However, I think that, if they then become fans they should know the truth. With this I'm not saying anyone should discourage people to watch anime on TV, but at least, when they become interested enough, they should learn about the world of fansubs, legal anime video releases, the uncensored version of the series etc. Think of this edited series as a "light" anime treat or as something like an anime "starter pack". However, the true fan, the one who already knows should avoid this, since it's most probable he's missing a lot from the original content...

Those are my 2 cents... See you on the boards.
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Old 2003-11-16, 08:45   Link #4
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i must admit that if more ppl over here in england were to watch it / if it was to be shown on t.v i wouldnt feel to good about it, i like it how it is over here at the mo, only a few ppl know and watch it ^__^ im not to sure why i dont want tons of ppl to know about it but i just dont ^__^
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Old 2003-11-16, 08:48   Link #5
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Firstly, anime is not a genre.

I think your boyfriend is misunderstanding your objection to anime on cartoon network or toonami (or maybe I am). Fans of fansubs (and to a lesser extent those of us who watch anime raw) dislike the idea of censorship and editing that generally comes part and parcel of being shown on 'mainstream' TV - butchering the director's original vision. Nothing to do with being elite.

I feel sorry for the people that only know DBZ or Pokemon. They don't know how rich anime is, plus they've probably only been exposed to the American dumbed down version of DBZ and Pokemon (where the hell did they get "Jesse and James" from??).
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Old 2003-11-16, 11:59   Link #6
Superchop
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I feel that the mainstream stuff on TV is just like a taste for me, I'll watch it cause right now that's one of my main anime sources...I seriously hate when they cut things out and/or change things around but if it's on tv then i can live with it...If i really like the series i will most likely end up buying the series so i can get it the way it's meant to be...

And fansubs are 2nd best right next to the dvd's...

Normal people that aren't into anime as much as others will most likely not care enough about censorship and just watch what's on tv and not think twice about gettin dvd's or watching the uncut/uncensored versions...and cause they see that people like us hate to see things uncensored and we try to divide it from other series for one reason or another they think we take it a bit too far...but this is our hobby and nothing else...just like some people have their cars, model building, etc etc...we have anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_R
(where the hell did they get "Jesse and James" from??).
I'm not sure where they got the names..but i think someone in the studio had a thing for wild west films....Jesse and James = Jesse James...and the other two from the same team, Butch and Casidy = Butch Casidy i dotn know if this is meant to be like this...but it's just a little thing i noticed...
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Old 2003-11-16, 12:48   Link #7
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Not to be nitpicking here but the word "elitist" don't apply to animefans at all. Looking up the word on dictionary.com:

2 entries found for elitist.
e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.


Which is a bit off the mark i.m.o. A better word would be "arrogance":

arrogance

\Ar"ro*gance\, n. [F., fr. L. arrogantia, fr. arrogans. See Arrogant.] The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption.

I hate not you for her proud arrogance. --Shak.

Syn: Haughtiness; hauteur; assumption; lordliness; presumption; pride; disdain; insolence; conceit; conceitedness. See Haughtiness.


Still not nice being called arrogant but members of any subculture are perceived as arrogant by the mainstream. Everytime you think someone is ignorant or stupid they usuallly think you're arrogant. I don't have a problem with that. It's just the balance of things (or thoughts in this case)...
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Old 2003-11-16, 17:04   Link #8
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The thing I hate about most anime fans is that they think somehow anime is "theirs" and they get all pissed off when it gets bigger than niche/alternative entertainment, just being anti-mainstream.
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Old 2003-11-16, 17:06   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microlith
"Elitists" suffer from a few common symptoms:
1.) They argue about the sub/dub issue to this day
I hate people who blindly say that subs are "TEH OMG BETTARH!" There are good dubs and there are bad dubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by microlith
2.) They tend to drag shows through the dirt if they've been seen by a wide audience
2a.) this does not apply to shows seen before they were on TV, and they will note this.
Well most of the time they do it because they see that really retarded people are watching it. They feel that if people see that they like it they'll feel stereotyped as the same as these blind followers of the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by microlith
3.) They make half-ass remarks about fansubs being better than commercial releases solely because fansubs were done by fans, claiming the world about the fansubs being better in every way despite any obvious flaws.
DAMN THEM!

Quote:
Originally Posted by microlith
4.) They tend to actively discourage people who are interested in Anime if they have started from stuff like Dragonball Z
I agree. Seems rather pointless to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by microlith
WHR doesn't exactly belong with DBZ because WHR is aimed at a very different audience, as was Bebop, and several of the Gundam OAVs. Granted the same people might watch them but there are many who will watch DBZ and nothing else.
Well I personally don't think there would be much to cut, although american censors can be rather harsh.
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Old 2003-11-16, 17:10   Link #10
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The Azumanga Daioh "review" on ANN (scroll to the bottom) is the worst case of elitism I have ever seen.
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Old 2003-11-16, 18:04   Link #11
method
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Why are fansubs truer to anime than commercial releases? Fansubs are not perfect. WHR from what I have heard doesn't fit with the toonami demographic of 6-14 yr olds so Cn will put it on Adult Swim. The problem with some anime fans is want their favorite titles to stay underground and think too highly of that because the evil mainstream audience doesn't know about that title. Also when it comes to airing a title they nitpick the smallest detail whether it is the editing of nudity or language or something inconsequential as that.
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Old 2003-11-16, 18:10   Link #12
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That chat session hosted by one the people who writes for ANN is rather sad.

"To me, to me, the popularity of Azumanga Daioh is the mass movement of thousands of lonely men signaling vainly to each other to give validity to them watching a show about pink-donning prepubescent girls"

Last edited by Flash_Squirrel; 2003-11-16 at 18:27.
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Old 2003-11-16, 18:23   Link #13
method
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That wasn't a review of AzuDai. That was a chat session hosted by one the people who writes for ANN.
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Old 2003-11-16, 19:23   Link #14
Kamui4356
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I have no problem with editted anime on TV in most cases, as long as an uneditted version is available for me to watch. The only time it really bothered me was when they showed a few editted episodes of Evangelion at 4:00 on cartoon network. I was afraid that some little kid would like the series, and have his mother buy it on dvd. Then the mother would come into the room during one of the later episodes, be shocked at what was going on, and create a lot of controversy about that level of violence being in, what in her eyes is, a "kids show". Fortunatly that didn't happen, but if it had it could have been a serious setback for anime in the US. Yes I am aware of the age recommendations on the box, but how many parents actually follow them.
To get more on topic, yes there is an amount of arrogance in anime fans. Personally I like to introduce more people to new series they haven't heard of yet, but I know people who have shown a new series around, then got pissed that other people actually liked it. I'm guilty of being arrogant too, but in a different way. I get pissed at people who only watch DBZ, and people who associate anime with only pokemon, dbz, and Yugi-oh. I think we should all try to remember that to most people animation is just for kids, and anime is animation. Instead of getting mad we should either ignore such criticism or find an anime that the person would like if they actually watched it.
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Old 2003-11-16, 21:21   Link #15
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I think "mainstreamed" anime is ok. It's easier to get someone to watch a fansub if they've already been exposed to an anime on TV, albeit one that's been dubbed, cut, and commercialized.

I can't imagine the shock of going from Tom and Jerry or Bugs Bunny and then seeing Scrapped Princess, Saikano, or Sexy Commando.

I do understand the worry that people won't get into funsubbed anime if the anime they have seen on TV is sanitized. We just have to hope that if they are that intelligent, they will be smart enough to be curious about the original product.

-k
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Old 2003-11-16, 21:36   Link #16
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I have nothing against Mainstream anime, i just like it in Japanese /w subs, period.

Now i know there are good dubs and shit, but i still like it in Japanese, it adds kind of an environment to anime and it seem natural. (engrish = sucky and put me out of anime mood)

What i do have a problem with is most of the lame ass fans that only watch Mainstream and are to stupid to know whats better. For example if you've ever gone to Adultswim.com forums and look at all the Inuyasha-whores posting "OMG INUYASHA AND OMG DRAGON BALL Z AND OMG POKEMON!!!!" wasting god knows how much bandwidth is stupid as hell. (for the record, i have nothing against the anime on adultswim, i just think the watchers need pity and a new religion or lack of one)

but for the most part, Mainstream gets anime more viewers, and i bet that a lot of the Elitist probably began watching some old mainstream anime on TV and got hooked on it, i know i did, sadly, back in the days >_<
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Old 2003-11-16, 22:07   Link #17
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I'm not against mainstream anime either. Or against commercial releases. I prefer subbed over dubbed.... tho there have been some rare occasions where I've watched the dub before the subbed and I can't get into the subbed one. LOL Or vice versa...

I can't stand Kenshin's voice dubbed.... I tried.. I so did but i had to switch back. On the other hand Cowboy Bebop was dubbed VERY well and I rather enjoy the english version.

My bf used the term elitist -_- Arrogance would be a better word probably, but I just going by what he said.

HAHA Kamui! I always fear that too! Like remember when gundam was popular on cartoon network? I can picture some little kid search it up on the internet and finding the massive yaoi fanbase LOL Maybe seeing some explicit pics in the process. As far as Eva... it kinda bugs me that they aired it. It wouldn't bother me so much if it was aired on like... hbo or cinemax, because they are more adult oriented. It would be cool if a random non anime fan turned on hbo and watched eva and saw the depth of some kinds of anime.
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Old 2003-11-16, 22:26   Link #18
method
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Well they only aired the first two episodes and the week failed overall so no damage was done to either group. There are only a few titles that are mainstream and they are kiddy titles like Pokemon. DBZ also, but you can find that one subbed on the dvds
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Old 2003-11-16, 22:30   Link #19
Mr. Bushido
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the reason most ppl dont like dubs is because we're all used to the subs.

i hate dubs because:
they take out lot of asian traditional and cultrual things because they want their kids to be WESTERN as possible
honestly, americans cant get the japanese emotion, just the way japanese cant get american emotion. different voice, different culture, different language.
ppl here think its soley for kids, so most anime comes out on kid hours, therefore they edit a lot of stuff out. I mean look at simpsons, its no edited, cusses, blood, and racial slurs. If they put some anime on Fox at 8pm they could do that too.

i dont have anything against the mainstream, let them make money. But when i turned on Shaman King i just had to turn tat off.
My first anime in the US was pokemon, and i watched in english, and have never heard it in japanese. So i never complained. But when i see the japanese versions of animes i cant watch american versions, they edit too much and the voice doesnt match. Like i said before, its hard to capture the emotion and tone someone has in a different language. I speak 2 different languages fluently, and its hard to get the same tone and emotion in one language to the other.
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Old 2003-11-16, 22:46   Link #20
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Thats why I perfer the subs with japanese dubs, it just sounds better. The english dubs really suck in most animes but I amit their are a few anime series where the dubs are just as good as their japanese counterparts, for ex. Cowboy Bepop, Outlaw Star. But as Zoro said its really hard for the english voice actors to capture the emotions and tone of someone who speaks a different language.
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