Signature of the Month Contest Generic Discussion Thread

[SeedFreedom]

Originally Posted by Solace

**Contest Rules Revision: Version 1.0**

Each month prospective contestants are given a theme to base their entries on. This theme is decided by the winner of the previous contest. The theme can be anything, as long as it does not break forum rules regarding inappropriate material. At the end of the month, voters choose which entry they liked best out of all submitted entries and a new winner is decided. Themes cannot be used twice in a row.

Sorry to break from the crop vs work discussion for a quick sec, but I just have a question about this line. Are you going to limit the voting to one per person, or should it read "which entries they liked..."

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Sorry to break from the crop vs work discussion for a quick sec, but I just have a question about this line. Are you going to limit the voting to one per person, or should it read "which entries they liked..."

It should be in plural I guess, until the amount of entries to vote per persons is subject to change again.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by KasumiGirl

For example, if I took one of KiNA's wallies, cropped it, and maybe added some text, i'm pretty sure KiNA would hit me in the head. That requires no skill, or even...no effort. AND I would have a sore head.

I think this point illustrates the big issue. It's easy to rip off someone's work who isn't related or involved with us on this forum and make the claim that what we're doing involves using other people's works anyway (which is true), but there is a distinction between using a stock image and using a render. The idea of using someone's own work in a competition against them, as pointed out by KasumiGirl, should make most people realize that it doesn't seem quite right.

Being a crop signature maker myself I can attest to the fact that it doesn't require a whole lot of skill or time. I enter my signatures less for seeing how people react to Photoshopping skills and more for the feeling of the signature as well as their response to my placement of elements. It's a different goal than "true" graphic designers, I know, and I can also understand why most graphic designers would have disdain for croppers.

I can also appreciate Sephi's statement about the overall goal of this contest. It isn't about winning, but about learning. Using someone's amazing work in a crop just to win is a hollow victory, because you haven't learned anything. The real prize is in learning new techniques and how to use your program to do different things. This contest spurred me to try things aside from just cropping, to seek out tutorials and learn new functions of the program, and I'm really thankful for it.

It would be very simple to add a rule stating that all source images used must be posted along with the entry, just for verification purposes. I don't know that we'd need to crack down on it unless the atmosphere became more competitive than learning-driven. If the majority of entrants are scouring the net and just cropping wallpapers left and right then the learning goal of the contest isn't being met, and it would likely harm the morale of those who would like to experiment and learn. In that scenario, I think that having such a rule would be necessary.

... with that said, while I don't think that people were referring to my entry for this month as a wall crop, I apparently have a confession to make! When I was originally going through my stocks folders I found that image and thought it was original. Two or three days before the close of the contest I tried to find a higher-resolution version of it due to feedback statements over blurrieness. I found one on a magazine cover, and I'm lead to believe that perhaps the image that I had (downloaded many years ago) was someone's wallpaper work. It would have been easy enough to emulate (render clouds + add some lens flares and light sources), but I ran out of time while cutting out my new-found source. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew how to do the effects, but reading all of this has made me feel rather guilty about entering the image while having the idea that it might have been someone else's render. I'll certainly try not to do that again, and apologize if it offended anyone.

[Deathkillz]

I don't think you did anything wrong in using a stock that may have been someone else's work. Heck all images are like that in the first place (ie, I didn't make the image in my siggy). But the way you work with it to create something unique is what matters...that means using effects such as clouds, flares or otherwise. For a beginner it is quite alright imo to start with simple effects (otherwise how are you supposed to move onto the more complex stuff? ).

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Sorry to break from the crop vs work discussion for a quick sec, but I just have a question about this line. Are you going to limit the voting to one per person, or should it read "which entries they liked..."

It's a typo. Thanks for pointing it out.

[escimo]

2 cents of a noob entering his first sig compo...

I think this is a bit of a difficult question altogether as far as copyrights are concerned. Using a ready made render, or even making your own out of a fan-art or a promo picture can still be considered a copyright violation at least in some extent so as far as legal aspects are concerned there's not much difference in using a render with your own background and effects compared to just cropping a wallie. I'd say that making a good and original signature out of wallpaper stock can be just as difficult as using a render so there isn't necessarily much difference in terms of effort either. However just cut and paste + add border sigs do defy what I and clearly most of the others see as the point of this competition.

I'll use a musical example. Using a ready image, modifying it, retouching it and adding effects to it could be compared to making a remix of a song. In the case of a sigs giving credit to the original author can be a bit of a bitch though since even if you use a render from what ever imageboard it's generally a real bitch trying to find the author of the original picture. Giving credit to the maker of the render wouldn't be exactly right either even as it really is an art form of it's own. The same goes to screencaps etc. I think this is something that's quite widely recognized so I don't think it's really necessary to discuss about the author issue here. Going back to the music analogy you may not be called the author of the original work but the remix is definitely yours.

Then on the other hand just cropping a stock could be compared to just cutting 2 minutes out of a 5 minute song and calling it your own or your "remix". That's just not right. It's just a ripoff.

I can't come up with a single reason why someone would even enter a sig like this. It's not like the prizes are that great. Or does it really feel good to get recognition out of someone else's work? Is it just about cookies? Is winning really that important that something like this wouldn't feel very hollow? And can you really take pride of your work if it's just basically cutting and resizing a picture someone else made?

Going to the other extreme... Hell if a full utter and complete originality of all of the components of the sig would be a requirement for an entry I'm out of the future competitions. I can't draw for shit so I'm stuck with renders.

I did use a ready render in my entry sig. Spent quite a few hours going through a forest of them before coming up with the one that I used. Bg is a heavily retouched crop of a photograph I took. Even as I used a render that someone else made out of a art of a third party I think I can take pride in the work I did. Even, as a complete novice to signature making, I know that I did the best I could with my current abilities and in the time frame available for me. The size limits (both file size and image size) really gave me a headache. So for me this was just as much a technical challenge as it was artistic. I have to say that when the entries were lined up I honestly didn't expect to receive a single vote. The fact that I have already received a couple of votes and some honorary mentions just makes me very happy as someone else recognizes my effort and vision. If I had just scissored someone else's pic I really can't see how I could feel the same.

Anyway thank you very much to everybody who voted for my sig or gave me other kind of feedback. You're giving me a lot of encouragement to try even harder in the competitions to come. This is a prize of it's own.

[kayos]

I think it's safe to say that the majority believes a:

cropped image/wallie + text + border = wrong

but a

cropped image/wallie + modification (to a certain extent) = okay.

As for the legal copyright matters, I think that's another story altogether.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by kayos

I think it's safe to say that the majority believes a:

cropped image/wallie + text + border = wrong

but a

cropped image/wallie + modification (to a certain extent) = okay.

In the context of a competition, yes. The contest is essentially "make your own signature", not "find the best image you can and put a border on it". Cropped sigs in and of themselves aren't wrong. It's the equivalent of tracing a picture, and it's something many prospective digital artists do to start learning how to create more complicated things.

I guess now is as good a time as any to offer my thoughts on the matter. I'll try to do so without citing specific examples as to potentially avoid sounding biased.

Essentially, this contest is just as much about having fun as it is about helping fellow forum goers improve their skills. Fun is important because no one likes doing things that aren't fun. And having a competition is important and intended to give people an incentive to try to further their own skills.

I realize this means that issues like time, effort, preference, skill....they tend to be based on personal bias just as much as common consensus. However I feel it is unfair to the graphic artists who do try, regardless of skill level, to create something that is distinctly "theirs". This is why one particular entry was the root of this discussion while another was not.

When creating a crop signature, there is more effort involved than some might think. Finding a good image, choosing the right parts to crop, creating an interesting way of displaying that image with borders, effects, and text, there is a bit of thought that goes into cropping. This isn't a universal truth, but some people do get praise for good cropping skills, and as I mentioned before, many have cropped as part of the learning process. I'm no exception to this, as many of my signatures have indeed been crops.

In fact, my entry this month is technically a crop. I smudged the background, used filters to give the background texture, added gradients to highlight the characters, used color settings to bring out some parts and downplay others, animated the smoke (first time ever actually, went through two versions), and used text and borders to help enhance the image. Using KasumiGirls examples, my entry is more like her second example than the first one. But, it's still technically a crop.

The issue this month is that one of the entries doesn't appear to have that level of alteration. Comparing it to the original source, very little was changed - border, blur, lens flare. So the complaints leveled are mainly pointed at the signature gaining votes because of the quality of the original image rather than the quality of the sig maker and his/her unique image.

This does bring into question something Klashikari brought up:

The other problem will be the "third case": what about signatures which "look like crops", but that aren't? What about jobs which are quite nice by themselves (as the original picture CG was outstanding from the start), which don't exactly have much APPARENT work to need?

The answer to this depends on perspective. From my perspective, someone who finds a good cg work and just cuts out part of it, adds a border/text, and enters the image isn't really trying. Sure, the image fits the theme. But the person isn't really using their own skills so much as slightly altering the work of someone else and passing on those merits instead. It just doesn't compare to someone who finds an image and significantly alters the image to present something uniquely theirs.

In a contest setting, I don't think this is ok. Purely because for *this* contest, artists should be trying to win based on their skills as a signature maker. The pleasing image is the end result, and from the voters perspective it would be difficult to tell a crop from something with more "effort".

To the sig makers though, this comes across as a little unfair. While we all work with ripped images to some extent, more effort goes into creating and piecing together multiple aspects into one unique image than just cutting a picture out and putting a border around it. So while the voters may have difficulty in seeing the difference, some of the sig makers do and the hard work feels cheapened.

I'm going to have to be blunt and say that this contest isn't a fancy version of the "Rate that Signature!" thread. This contest is for artists who wish to compete with their own *created* signatures. Simply voting for the prettiest picture is missing the point of the whole thing, which is that we're all here to create signatures, improve our skills in doing so, have a friendly competition to see who can make the best one using the monthly theme, and come away each month with an improvement of skills, and have fun along the way. The pretty pictures really aren't as important as the community building and personal skill building that the contest is intended to promote.

While I haven't decided on what exactly to do regarding cropped image *because* it is a debatable issue, I have decided to implement a rule discouraging people from just trying to skate by. Perhaps asking for sources randomly might be a bit much, but when I see the example someone had shown me earlier privately, it does make me consider things differently.

In any case, I want to be clear - I'm not for or against crops specifically. I just want to encourage people to improve their skills, try new things, etc. I don't feel the basic crop signature rises to that calling and its place in the contest is questionable.

I will mention one person specifically here as an example of someone with low skill level who tried very hard: Zaku Hyuga. From his first attempts (using MS paint of all things!) at the beginning of the month to his final entry using Artweaver, he's a great example of someone who tried his best this month. He's a great example of the kind of people the contest is intended to help. Not only did he get helpful tips on improving his entry, but he made a notable improvement from his first entry to his last.

It's a unique work that's entirely his (minus the render of course), and even if it's not an amazing display of skill he shows that with a little effort, everyone has room to grow. I wonder, if the contest hadn't been here, if he would have bothered even trying. I hope he enters again next month, honestly. I think he has a lot of potential.

And....somehow this turned into another novel.

Please keep the discussion going though. It's only through talking about it that we'll find a common ground to work with.

Originally Posted by kayos

As for the legal copyright matters, I think that's another story altogether.

Somehow the deviant art comment and the crop sig discussion got mixed together. Ah well.

[CrowKenobi]

After mulling over this question for the better part of a day, I have figured out my take on this rule:

2. Contestants must submit original works. This means you cannot simply cut a picture out, slap your name on it, and call it your own. Claiming someone else's work as your own is also not allowed, nor is reusing one of your older contest signatures. Anyone caught doing this will have their entries removed from the contest.

I would suggest to change it to something like this:

2A. Unless proven otherwise, all entries made by contestants are derivatives of works made by someone else. Thus, no claim of "ownership" shall be made in reference to the image(s) used in the signature entry.
2B. Misrepresenting someone else's signature work for your own is prohibited and will result in an immediate expulsion of the entry and disqualify the contestant from the current month's contest.
2C. In the spirit of originality, "crop" sigs are frowned upon, but not discouraged; however, the tournament director can call upon all contestants to show the source of their entry(ies) at any time.
2D. Also in the spirit of originality, only new signatures created by the contestants shall be allowed into the contest -- be creative and make something new!

[KholdStare]

I would like to add that I think 65% of this contest is being able to find a good picture/wallpaper/poster/etc... (in my opinion). If I have mad skills but have no pictures to work with, then my mad skills won't show. To be honest, I can pretty much see the difference between something cropped and something with a lot of work put into it, but if the render that is being worked with doesn't appeal to me, then all of the "work" will pass right by my head. Is it bias? Yes, but that's how I rate signatures.

[BearShare]

^That's what composition does for ya.

[KasumiGirl]

Wow. What nice reads everyone has put together.

Anyways, as for the crop discussion, i'd like to sum up my thoughts.
I haven't experienced this just yet, but wouldn't it piss you off if some person choose a cropped sig instead of your non cropped, and mentioned you in their honorable mentions list? You got beaten by someone who cutted out a bit of a picture. How nice.
Back to my argument. The thing that makes me frown upon this besides "ripping" from another person's work, is it suddenly turns into a competition of who can find the prettiest picture.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

I would like to add that I think 65% of this contest is being able to find a good picture/wallpaper/poster/etc... (in my opinion). If I have mad skills but have no pictures to work with, then my mad skills won't show. To be honest, I can pretty much see the difference between something cropped and something with a lot of work put into it, but if the render that is being worked with doesn't appeal to me, then all of the "work" will pass right by my head. Is it bias? Yes, but that's how I rate signatures.

This is sort of what i'm talking about. This is what happens when people use a very much liked character and a crop. Back to my example. If Khold liked Haruhi better then my fallen girl, then obviously he is talking my fallen girl for granted. I wouldn't think it's he is at fault. I just think that if he wanted to vote for Haruhi, at least the sig creator (a.k.a me ) should have not entered a crop. Therefore, I think crops shouldn't be entered. Stock manips are allowed. As Sephi mentioned, it's all about the learning journey. Not which is the best. As for requesting for the source, I don' think that's needed. At least someone here is going to have the same image that he/she used. If not, maybe Solace can ask them if he's feeling a bit suspicious.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

... with that said, while I don't think that people were referring to my entry for this month as a wall crop, I apparently have a confession to make! When I was originally going through my stocks folders I found that image and thought it was original. Two or three days before the close of the contest I tried to find a higher-resolution version of it due to feedback statements over blurrieness. I found one on a magazine cover, and I'm lead to believe that perhaps the image that I had (downloaded many years ago) was someone's wallpaper work. It would have been easy enough to emulate (render clouds + add some lens flares and light sources), but I ran out of time while cutting out my new-found source. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew how to do the effects, but reading all of this has made me feel rather guilty about entering the image while having the idea that it might have been someone else's render. I'll certainly try not to do that again, and apologize if it offended anyone.

Don't worry about this. But I really think in the next SOTM, and anyone does enter a crop, 80% of the FC community will be offended.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by KasumiGirl

If not, maybe Solace can ask them if he's feeling a bit suspicious.

I've already assembled my team of top notch investigators:

[Ledgem]

Now that I've participated twice and have gotten a glimpse at how "true" graphic artists work I can understand the sentiments here. I don't think it clearly matches with the initial description of the contest, though. For all of you who put a lot of effort into designing signatures, the contest really is about skill. To people like me, it's just about designing a signature. Whether it's a crop or whether it involves massive manipulation, a signature is a signature and we're just going based off of that.

If you want it to be skill-based, the way that the submission process occurs needs to be changed. I may have an untrained eye for graphics, but I am highly doubtful that even the best among us can determine what effects were done without seeing the source for themselves. Even seeing the source can't give a full appreciation for the amount of work that went into it. Only by seeing something like this can you really get a sense of appreciation for what was done.

If you make showing the innards of your project a requirement, you're shifting the focus of the competition. The graphic artists who appreciate the effort and technique will be swayed by more complex projects; the new/non-artists will still be looking at the end product. Since Solace is largely the one running it, it's up to him.

If I were going based off of technique, the animated signatures would probably always be getting my votes because they require a lot of work. Even I know that, and thus I can understand KiNa's frustration. On the other hand, my own idea of what a signature is - something pretty to look at that contains a message - is virtually unseen on these forums (these signatures never have a message in text). The effort that goes into my style is different from the effort that goes into an animated signature or a heavy manipulation, but this is where it gets tricky. I understand that crops are looked down upon by people who spend more time, but by expecting everyone to be doing a certain thing (whether animations, C4D, or manipulations) you're requesting style conformity.

I came to that realization when I had the thought that maybe I'd better not enter next time, because people are getting upset that effort isn't being rewarded and that "cheap" signatures are even being entered at all. I don't have the time or skill to do what you all do, and to be frank, my style is completely different from the usual on these forums (even though my entry for this month was heavily warped and catered more toward the style I see here). I spend my time choosing fonts, adjusting text placement, altering font effects, and so on. There's nothing wrong with the fact that my style is different, either... but I'm pointing it out to show that it's not as easy as saying "crops + slapped on text = cheap, bad" (even if it's true in most cases ).

I'm not upset about anything I've stated above, either. If you ban crops or if people get testy about them, I'd still vote and enjoy the contest even if I couldn't enter. I think the premise behind the contest is very worthwhile and has resulted in some fantastic works, including many that have inspired me. As graphic designers, this is your contest. If you want it to be open to everyone and to varying styles, be careful with what you exclude. If you want this to be about technique as you all know it, then you know what you have to do.

[kayos]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

a signature is a signature

So true as in art is art, even a cropped wallpaper must have good composition and working text to have unity. So who's to say that person did not learn a thing or two about composition and choosing/manipulating text.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If you want it to be skill-based, the way that the submission process occurs needs to be changed.

Isolating it to a skill-based competition will filter out any potential new artist by intimidation of having to prove one's software knowledge.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Only by seeing something like this can you really get a sense of appreciation for what was done.

Efforts are always appreciated but that doesn't mean it'll end with a good result. As you have already mentioned we vote for the end results (personal preferences, composition, style, text, etc).

Originally Posted by Ledgem

people are getting upset that effort isn't being rewarded and that "cheap" signatures are even being entered at all.

It's quite understandable why members would get upset when their effort goes unappreciated (hell I do too but that doesn't give me the right to hate on croppers), but this was never a contest to see who put in the most effort. To me I've always thought SOTM was a contest by name but more so a place for helping and inspiring each other. How can people continue to want more filters and limitation, what's next no C4D no entry. Also calling a cropped wallpaper cheap is kind of harsh, that's like calling a abstract splattered painting compared to a portrait painting cheap. Sure the time and efforts aren't exactly the same but still there's some sense of artistic value in them. The thought process of choosing an image that would appeal to the majority and then applying/styling text onto it mush have some sense of value... right?

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by kayos

Isolating it to a skill-based competition will filter out any potential new artist by intimidation of having to prove one's software knowledge.

I think that's a very important point. I played with suggesting submitting the original picture along with your final entry, but that just meant more work for Solace, and of course, new comers might doubt themselves about if they made enough change to the picture and then ultimately not submit their entries. A screencap of layers might be a good idea, but some people, including me, don't do that. I merge down after a minor change, or else I will end up with 50 layers. How did this discussion start anyways? To my knowledge, the winning signatures for the last two months were not cropped sigs.

Note that I do understand the frustration of some, having edited their picture from April first until the final date. As a fellow graphic designer, I have many times faced the situation where I put in a lot of work that went by largely unnoticed. However, if possible, I would like this to be a free for all contest, and what we should do is merely state in the rules that we discourage cropped pictures to preserve the integrity of the competition.

[Solace]

Topics are broken down by number for the "too long didn't read" crowd.

1.

Originally Posted by escimo

I did use a ready render in my entry sig. Spent quite a few hours going through a forest of them before coming up with the one that I used. Bg is a heavily retouched crop of a photograph I took. Even as I used a render that someone else made out of a art of a third party I think I can take pride in the work I did. Even, as a complete novice to signature making, I know that I did the best I could with my current abilities and in the time frame available for me. The size limits (both file size and image size) really gave me a headache. So for me this was just as much a technical challenge as it was artistic. I have to say that when the entries were lined up I honestly didn't expect to receive a single vote. The fact that I have already received a couple of votes and some honorary mentions just makes me very happy as someone else recognizes my effort and vision. If I had just scissored someone else's pic I really can't see how I could feel the same.

Anyway thank you very much to everybody who voted for my sig or gave me other kind of feedback. You're giving me a lot of encouragement to try even harder in the competitions to come. This is a prize of it's own.

Reading back on this post now, I feel it sums up how I've felt about this discussion.

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

After mulling over this question for the better part of a day, I have figured out my take on this rule:I would suggest to change it to something like this:

2A. Unless proven otherwise, all entries made by contestants are derivatives of works made by someone else. Thus, no claim of "ownership" shall be made in reference to the image(s) used in the signature entry.
2B. Misrepresenting someone else's signature work for your own is prohibited and will result in an immediate expulsion of the entry and disqualify the contestant from the current month's contest.
2C. In the spirit of originality, "crop" sigs are frowned upon, but not discouraged; however, the tournament director can call upon all contestants to show the source of their entry(ies) at any time.
2D. Also in the spirit of originality, only new signatures created by the contestants shall be allowed into the contest -- be creative and make something new!

A good breakdown of the intent of the rule.

I've come to a decision. And with this post, might come some blunt words. Just a heads up.

Crop signatures are allowed into the contest. There is a certain type of crop signature that will be banned from this contest however. This type is the kind that differs very little, if any, from the original source. I'm not saying that contestants must heavily manipulate cropped images from now on. What I am saying is that signatures that don't appear to be any different than the source will be called into question and possibly removed from the contest.

This doesn't mean the contestant is removed. But it does mean they'll be asked to try a little harder and be more original. The arguments I've seen from both sides of the coin show me that no matter what I do, the decision won't be popular. Because I don't wish to directly exclude people from this contest, I've chosen to compromise as best as I can.

If you don't like it. Don't enter. Simple as that.

---

2. On to other subjects. The revised rules are going into effect for the May contest. I suggest those who care read them and see if they are agreeable. They're a page or two back. CrowKenobi's breakdown will also be added in to those rules.

---

3. This month's voting results were called into question. I'll explain what happened publicly. I made a judgment call. I did not believe that Utter_iMadness's votes should have been disqualified. While he was very last minute with the votes, the time it takes to make the post and have it show up on the forums can explain the minute he was "late".

The reason I changed the results back to a tie and disqualified his votes was because the complaint had the potential of spilling into a flame fest over my choice. I decided to try and circumvent that with the tie breaker.

Either way I'm going to take some shit for my choices so I chose the route that seemed the most fair to both parties. Had the votes continued to have been called into question, a recount would have been asked for anyway. And likely even more hurt feelings would have resulted.

I once again apologize to Simple 1 for announcing "false" results. I hope he won't bear too much of a grudge against me for the end results.

[KiNA]

Sometimes, making decisions and taking sides hurts.. I hope you persevere and ask for help if need.. There are some willing to help, if you willing to ask

[Utter_iMADNESS]

To tell the truth I think that it was fair to disqualify my vote because I should have voted earlier considering we had one week. When I checked the voting deadline I thought that it was at noon instead of midnight, but when I visited the thread I noticed that others had voted so I thought that I might as well try to give my votes (thus the "Is it too late to vote? Here are my votes just in case:" in my post). I apologize to Simple 1, Klashikari, and to everyone else for my tardiness in voting which resulted in a confusing result. I commend Solace's decision to disqualify my vote and to have a voting phase for the two top signatures. Hopefully I won't make such a stupid mistake again for next month's contest.

[Miko Miko]

I am not sure If i will be participating in the May SOTM, I have SATS next week and am really busy with studying, I have not enough time for graphics..