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Old 2008-04-24, 21:22   Link #281
Sol Falling
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:P geeze...I really don't know where you're getting all of this. Lelouch has been shown to be quite self-sacrificing, this much is true. However, there has been no indication, and furthermore I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody else who agreed with you, that all of Lelouch's actions are done 'for the sake of others'. You guys are claiming that Lelouch is the ultimate altruist here, which is just ridiculous if you look at his actions and motivations with any perspective. Isn't what's attractive about Lelouch his 'human' qualities? Aren't you glad that he's not a 'Jesus Yamato'? Why are you putting him up on a pedestal now?

I don't know, there's so many problems with the plausibility in your arguments there that I don't really feel like going through all of them. I'll just point out that your talk about Lelouch 'extracting' himself from Nunally's life was just a temporary measure. His plan to have Suzaku keep Nunally company while he was off doing stuff with the Black Knights was just to lessen her pain while he was gone, not a permanent solution. As such, he was most certainly not planning to 'watch over her from afar' during that time, so that's not an example of Lelouch giving something up at all.

Bah.
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Old 2008-04-24, 21:37   Link #282
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P geeze...I really don't know where you're getting all of this. Lelouch has been shown to be quite self-sacrificing, this much is true. However, there has been no indication, and furthermore I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody else who agreed with you, that all of Lelouch's actions are done 'for the sake of others'. You guys are claiming that Lelouch is the ultimate altruist here, which is just ridiculous if you look at his actions and motivations with any perspective. Isn't what's attractive about Lelouch his 'human' qualities? Aren't you glad that he's not a 'Jesus Yamato'? Why are you putting him up on a pedestal now?

I don't know, there's so many problems with the plausibility in your arguments there that I don't really feel like going through all of them. I'll just point out that your talk about Lelouch 'extracting' himself from Nunally's life was just a temporary measure. His plan to have Suzaku keep Nunally company while he was off doing stuff with the Black Knights was just to lessen her pain while he was gone, not a permanent solution. As such, he was most certainly not planning to 'watch over her from afar' during that time, so that's not an example of Lelouch giving something up at all.

Bah.
What he does is very human actually, I can very much understand what he's doing for the sake of others if in a selfish way. He took on his own interpretation of how to go about helping others, to the point where he can be cold, calculating, and completely ruthless to anyone he doesn't care about which gives him many flaws as well. He's not an altruist by any stretch, he's too cynical and realistic to believe in such grandiose dreams, but at least for the sake of those he does care for he'll move heaven and earth for them. Personal motivation is something any of us can relate to. Quite a few people actually did come to agree with us, because this wasn't exactly the first time we tried dissecting Lelouch's character, by any stretch I think it is one of the more plausible interpretations. Especially since you seem to have given up trying to rebuff it now

Where in that entire dialog did he say it was a temporary measure again? I don't recall him saying anything other then eventually being no longer able to watch Nunnally one day and that to counter any possible threat like Mao from happening again when he did go he looked for a suitable knight to take his place. So since you can't exactly provide a viable counter with actual support to your statement that contradicts my assessment I think the example still stands. Of couse, I suppose putting a few weeks in running the USoJ was really going to ensure Nunnally's blissful world, eh...? Be a little more reasonable would you, Lelouch took on a job that you just cannot do half-assed and would have required the rest of his life in order to make it work and last for Nunnally to enjoy. Now if you're done with your side of this little banter I too will end this discussion of ours as well...>_>
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Old 2008-04-24, 21:42   Link #283
Dann of Thursday
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All of Taniguchi's comments regarding Lelouch and the kind of man he is as someone who is highly empathetic of everyone around him and as someone who cares more about the happiness of those he cares about then his own. If it came between him being happy and someone he cared about, he would choose that person.
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Old 2008-04-24, 21:42   Link #284
KrimzonStriker
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There, you see, even the director agrees with us!
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Old 2008-04-24, 21:46   Link #285
Dann of Thursday
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Lelouch is doing all he does for those he cares about, with Nunnally at the forefront. His happiness will always come second to everyone else's.
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Old 2008-04-25, 00:07   Link #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
All of Taniguchi's comments regarding Lelouch and the kind of man he is as someone who is highly empathetic of everyone around him and as someone who cares more about the happiness of those he cares about then his own. If it came between him being happy and someone he cared about, he would choose that person.
opposite of Suzuku huh?

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Old 2008-04-25, 00:13   Link #287
Dann of Thursday
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To a certain degree, yes.
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Old 2008-04-25, 05:53   Link #288
Sol Falling
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Altruism isn't a grandiose dream or an ideal, it's a type of behaviour. Here's dictionary.com's definition:

1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

What you guys are saying by claiming that Lelouch will always put the happiness of others above his own is that Lelouch is completely altruistic. It's not a matter of whether he believes it's possible or not, and neither is it an issue of whether or not he extends his altruism beyond a certain subset of individuals. As long as Lelouch is always more concerned about others than about himself, then he is always being altruistic.

You might be right in saying that altruistic feelings are very human, but the fact of the matter is that the perfect expression of altruism is not only unrealistic, it's like the very definition of idealism. I personally don't believe Code Geass is the story of the ultimate 'nice guy', who is nice even though he doesn't seem like it.

Regarding Taniguchi's comments: even if Lelouch will always choose another person's happiness when it comes down to it (which is patently false, as we've seen that the only people whose happiness Lelouch cares particularly about are the people close to him), that doesn't preclude pursuing his own happiness when it doesn't come down to it. All I am saying is, when all of Lelouch's friends and family are happy, and everybody who Lelouch cares about is doing fine and dandy, then Lelouch will pursue the things that make him happy. Lelouch has pretty low standards for the sins and burdens he will take up and carry, but the sum of those burdens is not insurmountable. Not only is there room for Lelouch to act for his own sake, he is not so self-defeating and broken as to not make use of it.

Jesus, it's like you guys are trying to make him out to be Jesus or something. I'm not even trying to make him out to be a bad guy or something. Might I just remind you, being Jesus isn't healthy!
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Old 2008-04-25, 08:15   Link #289
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You can't convince me Lelouch is a purely altruistic character.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2008-04-25 at 08:22. Reason: "witty" insult comment removed.
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Old 2008-04-25, 09:49   Link #290
ashlay
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You can't convince me Lelouch is a purely altruistic character.
oh sure, he's a downright jerk when it comes to his enemies and occasionally to C.C. when he's in a particularly foul mood.

But when it comes to Nunnally or even his friends in many ways, Lelouch is pretty self sacrificing. Like the Pash! 50 questions to Lelouch put it ages ago, for Lelouch, love is something you should give unconditionally.
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Old 2008-04-25, 10:11   Link #291
Dann of Thursday
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Sol, how do you know that Lelouch would do that? When has he ever demonstated a care about his own happiness? There hasn't been any suggestion either that he ever is going to care all that much.

And no, we aren't making him out to be Jesus or some ridiculous notion like that, you are just seeing it that way.
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Old 2008-04-25, 11:54   Link #292
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I wish to remind something from the lead post of this thread:
Quote:
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Do not insult or harass other members for their likes and dislikes. Do not take it so seriously that you end up in an argument with another forum member because they express a fondness for a character you loathe. Discussion and good spirited banter is always welcome, but harassing people won't be tolerated.
While there isn't anything of that kind yet, it is pretty clear that opposition in arguments and such for the moment are going kinda... overboard sometimes.

Please remember that you are all discussing over a fictional character, hence, disagreeing and such doesn't mean the person is arguing about your tastes etc.
So, I'm asking all of you to discuss with composure... as such, please avoid riddles, putting one's arguments into ridicule, sarcasms and such obnoxious form of speechs to prove your points etc.
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Old 2008-04-25, 12:26   Link #293
Dann of Thursday
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Sorry about any comments on my part like that.
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Old 2008-04-25, 12:28   Link #294
Klashikari
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Actually, that comment wasn't aimed to anyone particularly, there is no need to apologize.
That said, it was rather an early warning as it seems debates on this thread and Suzaku's are going a little bit too personal already (be it "defenders" and "bashers").
So obviously, this warning applies in the other threads as well.
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Old 2008-04-25, 12:37   Link #295
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Altruism isn't a grandiose dream or an ideal, it's a type of behaviour. Here's dictionary.com's definition:

1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

What you guys are saying by claiming that Lelouch will always put the happiness of others above his own is that Lelouch is completely altruistic. It's not a matter of whether he believes it's possible or not, and neither is it an issue of whether or not he extends his altruism beyond a certain subset of individuals. As long as Lelouch is always more concerned about others than about himself, then he is always being altruistic.

You might be right in saying that altruistic feelings are very human, but the fact of the matter is that the perfect expression of altruism is not only unrealistic, it's like the very definition of idealism. I personally don't believe Code Geass is the story of the ultimate 'nice guy', who is nice even though he doesn't seem like it.

Regarding Taniguchi's comments: even if Lelouch will always choose another person's happiness when it comes down to it (which is patently false, as we've seen that the only people whose happiness Lelouch cares particularly about are the people close to him), that doesn't preclude pursuing his own happiness when it doesn't come down to it. All I am saying is, when all of Lelouch's friends and family are happy, and everybody who Lelouch cares about is doing fine and dandy, then Lelouch will pursue the things that make him happy. Lelouch has pretty low standards for the sins and burdens he will take up and carry, but the sum of those burdens is not insurmountable. Not only is there room for Lelouch to act for his own sake, he is not so self-defeating and broken as to not make use of it.

Jesus, it's like you guys are trying to make him out to be Jesus or something. I'm not even trying to make him out to be a bad guy or something. Might I just remind you, being Jesus isn't healthy!
Well, what you believe and what the director of the show believes should tell you something about which opinion actually counts in how we interpret the show...

And when the situation allows for such an event where everybody he cares about is happy, or at least he thinks they are happy then we'll talk. Until then he's pretty much dense about his own needs, and who said anything about it being healthy to be Jesus (which you can say he did quite a lot given all his messiah talk...>_>). The one thing I always argued was that it wasn't healthy for him at all which is why I was supportive of him getting some romantic development in R2 and why I was so glad that Rolo showed up in order for him to expand his relationships with others in general. I really wish you wouldn't suddenly judge me like I'm only totting a one-note argument
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:09   Link #296
Sol Falling
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:P damn, somehow I get the feeling that's directed at me...especially with your 'other threads' comment Klashkari >_<. In my defense, I'm an INTP personality type. It's not so much that I think my personal tastes are being disputed than that I'm a bit anal about the precision and clarity in the way things I care about are discussed. Nonetheless, I'll make sure it to keep it down.

Again, nobody's saying that Lelouch isn't altruistic or self-sacrificial. My point has been that he's got a bit (just a tiny wittle bit) of healthy self-interest as well.

For examples where he valued his own self-satisfaction over another's:

-Lelouch gambles despite the fact that it distresses/worries Shirley...
-Well on that point too, Lelouch geass's away Shirley's memories despite her clear protests...I don't particularly think that Lelouch was thinking about what she wanted at that moment, even if he did it for her sake...
-Lelouch resists such things as the gender-changing festival, and basically has to be forced into them. I don't think Lelouch is the type of tsundere who would go "Aw...fine, I'll do it" when faced with a bunch of sad looks from his friends...
-Lelouch tries to force C.C. to "Stay with me." in episode 15...
-Lelouch would have forced Euphie to shoot him in 22 if he didn't know she was doing it for Nunally (which is basically just forcing two of his self-interests against each other, anyway)...
-Lelouch has a habit of verbally putting down nobles.

For examples where Lelouch valued his own self-benefit over others:

-Lelouch manipulated C.C. into letting him go by threatening to shoot himself in episode 7...
-Lelouch made the JLF commit suicide, and then blew them up while pretending they were commiting suicide, in episodes 8 and 13 respectively...
-Lelouch made Suzaku "Live!" to save his own life...not to mention he took advantage of his knowledge of Suzaku's patricide to try and manipulate him into joining the OotBK in episode 18...

Wouldn't trust that to be a comprehensive list, either.

So there we go. Not only have we got some examples of Lelouch disregarding the wishes of his close ones, we also have three instances where he forced people important to him to do things against their will (C.C., Shirley, Suzaku) and another three instances where he sincerely tried to manipulate them but was prevented (C.C., Suzaku, Euphie). You're not going to convince me that there wasn't some component of [selfishness/self-interestedness] in any of those. (Actually, the only one that's even debatable is Shirley. You guys can ignore that if you want 'cause, even if I believe that Lelouch was being selfish with that action, undermining Lelouch's personal loss and sacrifice in that scene is bad for my hopes for the pairing.)

edit for Krimzon:

Again, my interpretation and Taniguchi's statements don't clash. Lelouch may be a character who puts others' needs above his own, but that doesn't say anything about Lelouch's actions when others' needs are fulfilled.

As for examples of Lelouch's selfish behaviour when he believes everybody's needs are fulfilled, look at points 1, 3, and 6 on the list above. Those all occurred when Lelouch wasn't under any significant pressure to act for the sake of his loved ones and are purely for his own benefit/satisfaction. My hope for Lelouch's healthiness is for him to get back to that general lifestyle once everything's over. Obviously our pairing preferences come into play there, though.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-04-25 at 13:22.
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:28   Link #297
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-Lelouch made Suzaku "Live!" to save his own life...not to mention he took advantage of his knowledge of Suzaku's patricide to try and manipulate him into joining the OotBK in episode 18...
I don't agree that he told Suzaku to "Live" to purely save his own live. Sure he wanted to live but at that moment that reason probably ended up being like 40% of what he wanted. The other 60% being that he didn't want Suzaku to just sacrifice his life as if it he was just a pawn.

Remember he didn't say "Evade" or "Get us out of here" but "Live" that in itself says alot of how much he cares about Suzaku. Spending time with him at school has already shown him that Suzaku has changed alot from a selfish kid to someone that is sacrificing himself even if it means his life. At that moment, Lelouch was panicking, he didn't want to die but he also didn't want Suzaku to die. So his mind froze up and his body did what ever instincts was telling him to do.
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:29   Link #298
Dann of Thursday
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-As far as I saw, Shirley never demonstrated openly to him that she disliked him gambling. We saw her make comments, but none to him that I recall.
-He didn't want to really remove her memories, but given the state she was in it was for her own good.
-But he did it anyway.
-She was going off to see Mao who is pretty much a psycho. I wouldn't have let her go either. Besides, what does that incident have to do with happiness?
-But he didn't appear to have any attempt to harm her. She would have probably been forced to leave and thus wouldn't have been an issue to worry about anymore.
I'd go on, but I don't really feel like it. Any of those points are arguable to some degree. Pretty much every act in some way contributed to the goal of either helping the plan for a peaceful world for Nunnally or keeping those he cared about out of danger.

Besides, who said that he was always an altruistic person since most of us admitted he wasn't completely like that at all. Euphemia is probably the only example of a completely altruistic person in this show.

All we're saying is that when it comes down to it in the end, Lelouch's happiness is second to those he cares about.

Of course pairing preferences go into ideas of when everything is over. He won't be going back to school though since everyone would have graduated by then. It would also be sort of a lame ending to win against a world empire and go back to being a simple student with an everyday life, which it seems bored Lelouch quite often with some fun times here and there.
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:43   Link #299
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Originally Posted by meijiOrO View Post
I don't agree that he told Suzaku to "Live" to purely save his own live. Sure he wanted to live but at that moment that reason probably ended up being like 40% of what he wanted. The other 60% being that he didn't want Suzaku to just sacrifice his life as if it he was just a pawn.

Remember he didn't say "Evade" or "Get us out of here" but "Live" that in itself says alot of how much he cares about Suzaku. Spending time with him at school has already shown him that Suzaku has changed alot from a selfish kid to someone that is sacrificing himself even if it means his life. At that moment, Lelouch was panicking, he didn't want to die but he also didn't want Suzaku to die. So his mind froze up and his body did what ever instincts was telling him to do.
It's easier and faster to say live than evade or get out of here.

Live only requires one sllyable afterall
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:46   Link #300
Dann of Thursday
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Well, Taniguchi and Okouchi were arguing for a long time over what that order would be. Okouchi eventually came up wuth "Live." I'd assume given how short and simple it is would allow them to use it in a flexible way.
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