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Old 2008-04-25, 13:46   Link #301
Airi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post

All we're saying is that when it comes down to it in the end, Lelouch's happiness is second to those he cares about.
That's because "his own happiness" is not his goal. But, indeed, he cares a lot about his friends.

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Originally Posted by meijiOrO View Post
I don't agree that he told Suzaku to "Live" to purely save his own live. Sure he wanted to live but at that moment that reason probably ended up being like 40% of what he wanted. The other 60% being that he didn't want Suzaku to just sacrifice his life.
In that moment, he didn't have time to think about Suzaku... It was a matter of seconds and he had to find a quick way to save his own life. But, surely, he cared about Suzaku and he showed it in other occasions.
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:51   Link #302
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I'd say it was more about Suzaku than himself. He didn't like how Suzaku just accepted that he should die just because he was ordered to. Suzaku didn't value his own life at that point.
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Old 2008-04-25, 13:54   Link #303
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If he didn't have the time to think, Lelouch would rather say: "get out of the way !!" or "Go intercept the missiles!" or better "go kill them!!"

"Live!" is a very unnatural order to give if one need to survive and take the advantage of the situation, especially if the ability is a "one use only".
Yet, he was pretty shocked to see Suzaku discarding his life, despite even he knows that he is used as tool to shut down the rebellion.
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Old 2008-04-25, 14:02   Link #304
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
If he didn't have the time to think, Lelouch would rather say: "get out of the way !!" or "Go intercept the missiles!" or better "go kill them!!"

"Live!" is a very unnatural order to give if one need to survive and take the advantage of the situation, especially if the ability is a "one use only".
Yet, he was pretty shocked to see Suzaku discarding his life, despite even he knows that he is used as tool to shut down the rebellion.
maybe....but


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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
It's easier and faster to say live than evade or get out of here.Live only requires one sllyable afterall
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Old 2008-04-25, 14:20   Link #305
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What... after sparing Suzaku so many times we're going to demote Lelouch as a heartless self-server who didn't want to save his friend from himself now? >_>
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-04-25, 14:27   Link #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
What... after sparing Suzaku so many times we're going to demote Lelouch as a heartless self-server who didn't want to save his friend from himself now? >_>

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Originally Posted by Airi View Post
In that moment, he didn't have time to think about Suzaku... It was a matter of seconds and he had to find a quick way to save his own life. But, surely, he cared about Suzaku and he showed it in other occasions.
Please.....read the posts before replying
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Old 2008-04-25, 14:29   Link #307
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Originally Posted by Airi View Post
In that moment, he didn't have time to think about Suzaku... It was a matter of seconds and he had to find a quick way to save his own life. But, surely, he cared about Suzaku and he showed it in other occasions.
Why out of everything he could say he tells Suzaku to "Live" then? Lelouch a guarded person who is someone who doesn't show his true self and feelings to people and thinks his actions over. But at that moment he "threw caution to the wind" reacted instinctively on how he truely felt at that moment and told Suzaku to "Live". Sure he benefits by living but at that moment he was acting instinctively for Suzaku's behalf so he can live.
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Old 2008-04-25, 14:31   Link #308
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Lelouch can come up with about 15 hundred possibilities in a second, and he had quite a few minutes trying to convince Suzaku not to throw his life away while the missles were coming. I think there is sufficent grounds to say that he was thinking about Suzaku's life at least as much as his own if not more so...>_>
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Old 2008-04-25, 15:29   Link #309
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Lelouch can come up with about 15 hundred possibilities in a second, and he had quite a few minutes trying to convince Suzaku not to throw his life away while the missles were coming. I think there is sufficent grounds to say that he was thinking about Suzaku's life at least as much as his own if not more so...>_>
Don't forget fear can do a lot of things to people...
Especially with other emotions going through your head.
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Old 2008-04-25, 17:01   Link #310
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
-As far as I saw, Shirley never demonstrated openly to him that she disliked him gambling. We saw her make comments, but none to him that I recall.
-He didn't want to really remove her memories, but given the state she was in it was for her own good.
-But he did it anyway.
-She was going off to see Mao who is pretty much a psycho. I wouldn't have let her go either. Besides, what does that incident have to do with happiness?
-But he didn't appear to have any attempt to harm her. She would have probably been forced to leave and thus wouldn't have been an issue to worry about anymore.
I'd go on, but I don't really feel like it. Any of those points are arguable to some degree. Pretty much every act in some way contributed to the goal of either helping the plan for a peaceful world for Nunnally or keeping those he cared about out of danger.

Besides, who said that he was always an altruistic person since most of us admitted he wasn't completely like that at all. Euphemia is probably the only example of a completely altruistic person in this show.

All we're saying is that when it comes down to it in the end, Lelouch's happiness is second to those he cares about.

Of course pairing preferences go into ideas of when everything is over. He won't be going back to school though since everyone would have graduated by then. It would also be sort of a lame ending to win against a world empire and go back to being a simple student with an everyday life, which it seems bored Lelouch quite often with some fun times here and there.
Krimzon and Ashlay were arguing that Lelouch wouldn't pursue a romantic opportunity given the chance and circumstances, because he doesn't believe in forcing his emotions onto the people he cares about. Their claim was that Lelouch's altruism extended to such an extent that he would never actively pursue his own happiness.

Again, I will happily concede that Lelouch values the happiness of those who are close to him over his own. I have also happily conceded that Lelouch is a heavily self-sacrificial character. My position has only been that this altruism does not extend so far as to inhibit his ability to pursue his own happiness.

Anyway, on your points of contention (though this may be unnecessary, if you don't want to continue):
-On Shirley complaining about Lelouch gambling, here's episode 4:
Rivalz: Lelouch, what are you gonna do after this? Our classes are cancelled, so how about that thing we were asked about before...
Shirley: Don't gamble!
Rivalz: Don't say such strict things!
-Deciding things for people based on your idea of 'their own good' is a bit selfish, in my opinion. But yeah, I said I'd ignore this part anyway, so I guess you can think what you want.
-He didn't do it, he was basically tied up and bound during the cat festival, I can only imagine what they had to do to get him to go through with the gender change one. Lelouch would never participate in such activities willingly--his pride wouldn't allow it--and this is a clear demonstration of Lelouch choosing his pride over his friends' (though obviously in this case superficial, malicious, cruel and unusual) happiness, even if he doesn't have the power to enforce his decision.
-Lelouch's "Stay with me" was basically, to me, a vocalization of his desperation for some sort of a pillar of support, a confidant and companion, after he gave up his relationship with Shirley. He was lonely, and the only person who could accompany him on the path he had chosen was walking out of his life. Very much a selfish sentiment (and also very understandable), as with C.C.'s immortality and no knowledge of the psychopath Mao had become there wasn't any rational reason for him to fear that she was going to come to any serious harm.
-Lelouch had planned to ruin her reputation, her belief in herself, her trust in him, and most importantly of all her sincere, almost realized dream for the future. If that's not harming someone then I don't know what is.

So basically the first point is uncontestable, and there is (quite a bit of) room to argue for a selfish component in all the other examples. I'm not ignoring their context in the bigger picture of Lelouch's goals, I'm just saying that Lelouch clearly demonstrates some behaviour that indicates that he values his own pride, amusement, accomplishments, etc. over the thoughts of others. This selfish drive allows room for Lelouch to pursue his own happiness when the wellbeing of those he cares about is not in immediate jeopardy. Looking over your position, I don't think you'd disagree?
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Old 2008-04-25, 17:05   Link #311
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Why would he feel lonely after what happened with Shirley? It's not like he spent that much time with her or anything before that outside of school. He was probably still upset at that point, but I wouldn't say he was lonely or anything.

Fine then, Lelouch is an incredibly selfish, cold person willing to do whatever it takes.
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Old 2008-04-25, 17:38   Link #312
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He spent enough time with Shirley for her to build up an incredible collection of pictures of them together and still have him consider her a friend, not a stalker. Several of those photos seemed to be taken in tourist locations or whatever too, like people out sightseeing, with other people like Rivalz appearing in a couple shots as well. Not to mention, since Lelouch basically lived in the student council headquarters, he was obviously spending a lot of time with the entire student council, and Nunally as well. Shirley was very much a part of Lelouch's daily life, so there's no reason to doubt that he would feel lonely. Although...I guess the issue wouldn't be 'loneliness' exactly...I guess I'll elaborate further.

Lelouch had basically wiped away his relationship with Shirley, an integral part of his existence within the student council. Like he said in 14, they would 'never laugh or fight like that again'. Basically, this loss would permanently colour his interactions with those people, in that environment. He had lost a place that he felt comfortable in, that was natural for him. And what did he give it up for? To pursue his revenge as Zero, with the power of Geass. But Zero was a lonely existence, a face that no one knows hiding behind a mask, a leader and his followers, no one trusted, no friends. Who was the only one who could support him and still see him for who he was as Zero? C.C.

That's why Lelouch was feeling lost, and why he needed an anchor of support to keep him on his chosen path. The only possible choice for that anchor was C.C. But C.C. was walking out on him. The person Lelouch thought he could trust to stay with him, accompany him, even push him on his path was leaving. He was truly being left with nothing. So of course he would demand 'Stay with me.' Of course he would fight to take her back. He was the one who needed her now. That's selfish. But very human, and if you want to take it that way, very romantic.

And anyway, I seriously wonder if you even bother to read my posts or are actually trying to make me look bad by misrepresenting my arguments. I never said that Lelouch was some evil entirely self-absorbed person. I just said he's got enough interest in himself to want to be happy, and pursue that happiness if he's given the chance. Just like any normal person. In fact, he's still a nicer guy than most people, ok? Just not some ideally altruistic paragon.
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Old 2008-04-25, 18:29   Link #313
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He didn't seem to know about those pictures at all and there was even one where he was asleep. They were friends along with everyone else in the council. I still wouldn't say lonely though. Sad over the loss of a close friend seems a more appropriate way of looking at it, but that is just me.

I never took that scene as romantic and I would get enough people telling me otherwise to not even bother. That whole scene actually makes both Lelouch and C.C. look bad, though of course Lelouch hadn't heard the phone call between Mao and C.C. yet.

I read them, but take any signs that could envoke a negative view of a character or event as a sign of doom. I do it with everyone.
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Old 2008-04-25, 19:48   Link #314
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hmm, we're basically on the same page then. I guess I might be looking a bit too deep with the loneliness thing, but it really makes sense to me. I'm not saying that the loneliness is focused on Shirley specifically. It's simply that the Student Council is a place that Lelouch feels natural and comfortable in (he smiles, he makes witty comments, he complies with Milly's demands, and we've got his own descriptor of 'laughing and fighting' as well). However, Lelouch has intruded on that 'sacred ground', so to speak, his 'safe haven', by first involving Shirley and then messing with her memories. Because of what he's done, not only has he lost Shirley's friendship, but he must now also lie and decieve his other friends as well (I could go further and interpret Lelouch's reaction to meeting Shirley again in episode 15 as when he first realizes this). Lelouch can no longer just relax and go with the flow in that environment; now he has to put up a mask as well, pretend to be happy or fighting or whatever, and generally just not be himself. So really, what Lelouch lost was more than just his relationship with Shirley--he lost the environment which provided him with a sense of 'belonging'. That's what I'm talking about when I say he was lonely.
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Old 2008-04-25, 20:08   Link #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airi View Post
maybe....but


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
It's easier and faster to say live than evade or get out of here.Live only requires one sllyable afterall
We can argue that "run away" and "live" in japanese both share 3 syllabes.
And if one want to argue about that, "RUN" would work as well (if they are talking in english, in the meta universe, obviously).
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Old 2008-04-25, 22:04   Link #316
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Krimzon and Ashlay were arguing that Lelouch wouldn't pursue a romantic opportunity given the chance and circumstances, because he doesn't believe in forcing his emotions onto the people he cares about. Their claim was that Lelouch's altruism extended to such an extent that he would never actively pursue his own happiness.

Again, I will happily concede that Lelouch values the happiness of those who are close to him over his own. I have also happily conceded that Lelouch is a heavily self-sacrificial character. My position has only been that this altruism does not extend so far as to inhibit his ability to pursue his own happiness.

Anyway, on your points of contention (though this may be unnecessary, if you don't want to continue):
-On Shirley complaining about Lelouch gambling, here's episode 4:
Rivalz: Lelouch, what are you gonna do after this? Our classes are cancelled, so how about that thing we were asked about before...
Shirley: Don't gamble!
Rivalz: Don't say such strict things!
-Deciding things for people based on your idea of 'their own good' is a bit selfish, in my opinion. But yeah, I said I'd ignore this part anyway, so I guess you can think what you want.
-He didn't do it, he was basically tied up and bound during the cat festival, I can only imagine what they had to do to get him to go through with the gender change one. Lelouch would never participate in such activities willingly--his pride wouldn't allow it--and this is a clear demonstration of Lelouch choosing his pride over his friends' (though obviously in this case superficial, malicious, cruel and unusual) happiness, even if he doesn't have the power to enforce his decision.
-Lelouch's "Stay with me" was basically, to me, a vocalization of his desperation for some sort of a pillar of support, a confidant and companion, after he gave up his relationship with Shirley. He was lonely, and the only person who could accompany him on the path he had chosen was walking out of his life. Very much a selfish sentiment (and also very understandable), as with C.C.'s immortality and no knowledge of the psychopath Mao had become there wasn't any rational reason for him to fear that she was going to come to any serious harm.
-Lelouch had planned to ruin her reputation, her belief in herself, her trust in him, and most importantly of all her sincere, almost realized dream for the future. If that's not harming someone then I don't know what is.

So basically the first point is uncontestable, and there is (quite a bit of) room to argue for a selfish component in all the other examples. I'm not ignoring their context in the bigger picture of Lelouch's goals, I'm just saying that Lelouch clearly demonstrates some behaviour that indicates that he values his own pride, amusement, accomplishments, etc. over the thoughts of others. This selfish drive allows room for Lelouch to pursue his own happiness when the wellbeing of those he cares about is not in immediate jeopardy. Looking over your position, I don't think you'd disagree?
Back up, back up a minute, I didn't say anything of the sort and neither did ashlay, what we were trying to get at was that he wouldn't actively pursue it with his current mindset, which is to place the needs others over his own which he does. If the circumstances changes then maybe, but they haven't and can in many respects have a high possibility of not happening as well. What you have to understand is the evaluation we make is based on the present setting, not baseless conceptualizations of what might happen in the future. Anything and everything is subject to change due to new developments, but we can't really make any guarantees on that, so we have to work with the material we actually have and our assessment of his current character is just that. This is what we have to work with at this point, this is how he thinks, and this is what is needed to be overcome if real romantic development is to occur for Lelouch.

One last thing, all your points you just brought up are very subjective, the gambling can be argued as a part of Lelouch's plan to destroy Britannia as well by raising funds for the eventual rebellion as was his practicing of Knightmare Frame piloting in the Ganymade during school festivals, which goes back to wanting to change the world for Nunnally.

The culture festival, there wasn't really anything at stake during the cat dress up thing, nobody would have been any worst off or really upset if he hadn't worn the costume which they only put on him anyway to make fun of him. But, when it really is important to someones happiness he'll put up with it, like when he complained about the Milley's kindergarten dress-up festival but re framed from doing so after remembering Nunnally liked it and relented that if it made her happy it was fine.

About the command to C.C in 15, you will recall that he said that she was more of a liability then anything else if she left which is why he made that order. He can't very well kill her since she is well... immortal... While this is probably the thing he tells himself and would tell the others, I do kind of hope that subconsciously your interpretation of why he did it is correct, though obviously the man is far too dense to realize it even if it was....>_>

Honestly, you can just as well say that what he everything he does can be attributed to the sake of others... and that presently we haven't really come to the point where the needs of others has been fulfilled from his perspective and it doesn't look like they will anytime soon... so until there actually is a change and he does demonstrates such behavior, this is the Lelouch we have to deal with and recognize...<_<
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Last edited by KrimzonStriker; 2008-04-25 at 22:24.
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Old 2008-04-26, 01:18   Link #317
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oh sure, he's a downright jerk when it comes to his enemies and occasionally to C.C. when he's in a particularly foul mood.

But when it comes to Nunnally or even his friends in many ways, Lelouch is pretty self sacrificing. Like the Pash! 50 questions to Lelouch put it ages ago, for Lelouch, love is something you should give unconditionally.
I don't entirely disagree, but that 'unconditionally' part can be troubling. That even means killing your kin, putting millions into war and despair, to all sorts of hell to get to that end? In a way, I do admire that insane zeal. But I find it hard to call it actually 'altruistic'. It's goal driven, sure, but it is pretty paradoxical to pit the two ideas IMO. There's nothing wrong with that of course. That just makes for a more delicious plot.
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Old 2008-04-26, 06:08   Link #318
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Honestly, you can just as well say that what he everything he does can be attributed to the sake of others... and that presently we haven't really come to the point where the needs of others has been fulfilled from his perspective and it doesn't look like they will anytime soon... so until there actually is a change and he does demonstrates such behavior, this is the Lelouch we have to deal with and recognize...<_<
It seems this part summarizes your argument pretty well, right? Although you can argue that everything he does is for the sake of others, it's quite difficult to believe such an argument. For example, would anybody really think Lelouch's primary motivation for gambling is destroying Britannia? We see in Sound Episode 0.916 that he got into it on a whim just so he could make fun of an arrogant noble. So even if you can keep arguing subjectively like that, I can just as easily keep arguing for my side as well, and your side is ultimately harder to try and prove, because you want to say that each and every action of Lelouch's has an altruistic 'for the sake of others' motive.

Anyway, as for your claims that Lelouch doesn't currently have the luxery of acting without considering his loved ones' needs...I'll give you that, but Code Geass is a fast paced show. Things could very well change by the time the ending comes around, wouldn't you agree? And the thing is, like I've pointed out, we already do have demonstrations of Lelouch's behaviour when his friends aren't in danger...the aforementioned gambling, culture festival resistance, and noble berating. I don't think it's a stretch that he would show a similar degree of selfishness if he had accomplished his goals and his friends weren't in danger anymore.
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Old 2008-04-26, 12:36   Link #319
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Uhh, what was he doing at the gambling den of all places in the first place if it was just on a whim then? It's far more likely he went there for that very purpose, and that only the involvement with Rivalz game was on a whim. In any event, perhaps it is a stretch to say each and every, but it's an even bigger stretch to not say this is his core being, his primary mindset that utterly dominates who he is for the most part and one where he will completely ignore if faced with the well-being of others which occurs quite frequently thanks to the life and choices he's made, and I think you're avoiding the problem completely by speaking of what might happen then what could happen.

Yes I can agree that circumstances could change things in any direction, not just the ones in which everything would conveniently fall into place in order for your scenario to work. It's not a sound assessment if you depend on only future developments in order to solve your problems, especially with a show that can go in so many different direction or has so many different plot twists as well. We have to measure it's likelihood based on the context we are given with, so I'd rather you try and fit the possibility into how it can happen now rather then leave it up in the wind. I've argued the same argument you have before, that this wasn't a healthy lifestyle for Lelouch to be leading and that he some how needed to learn to think about his own happiness at times as well before he ran himself into the ground and that would have made nobody happy in the end. But I took his character head-on in that regard, using comments and circumstances in relation to other characters that I hoped would help him realize he did matter, Rolo and his potential romantic developments being among them. And that is why I believe you're own assessment lacks substantial backing in order to make it convincing, you can't avoid a problem and just wait for it to be resolved, if you want to convince people you have to deal with it yourself, like Lelouch said in episode 19 to the rest of the Order about creating their own country.

Oh and I think I basically answered all your points, the gambling up above this post and how it is actually far more likely he was getting ready to destroy Britannia versus traveling all the way to a gambling den and hanging around there even though he was a student just to happen on this particular game with Rivalz. Then there was the festivals where he gave in for the sake of Nunnally whose happiness was paramount over his own discomfort, and as for nobles he also often goes to save those being bullied by them at the same time wouldn't you say?
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg
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Old 2008-04-27, 17:00   Link #320
Dann of Thursday
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I have to say I feel disappointed with Lelouch in terms of character in what happened with episode 4. It was brilliant in terms of tactics, but morally it didn't seem to reflect well on him.

There is the fact that he sees Rollo as nothing more than a tool and is willing to exploit his personality for his own ends and then discard him even if Rollo actually did love him as a brother. I also believe that Lelouch would seriously traded C.C. if it benefited him even if he may possibly have been kidding with Rollo to trick him.

He also still seems to have that idea of becoming a monster. So much for Lelouch becoming more charming.
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