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Old 2008-04-25, 19:38   Link #21
TakCWAL
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You guys know what is interesting, is that we don't know very much about Zjentohlauedy or Meltlandi technology. Yet, most Zent or Melt will tell you their guns are bigger and better than their Miclone counterparts.


Take the Quimeliquola Queadluun-Rau powered armor for example. It has been 5 decades since their introduction, yet, these powered armors still retain their basic designs (no doubt updated extensively) and managed to put up a good fight against the VF-25 in a mock shootout. Now thats a piece of equipment that has endured the test of time. Its too bad we rarely get a glimpse of these powerful weapons.

There had been technical details for the SDF-I Macross, the Valkyries and Desroids, but its a shame we have so little information on Zent/Melt technologies.

- Tak
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Old 2008-04-26, 01:06   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakCWAL View Post
You guys know what is interesting, is that we don't know very much about Zjentohlauedy or Meltlandi technology. Yet, most Zent or Melt will tell you their guns are bigger and better than their Miclone counterparts.


Take the Quimeliquola Queadluun-Rau powered armor for example. It has been 5 decades since their introduction, yet, these powered armors still retain their basic designs (no doubt updated extensively) and managed to put up a good fight against the VF-25 in a mock shootout. Now thats a piece of equipment that has endured the test of time. Its too bad we rarely get a glimpse of these powerful weapons.

There had been technical details for the SDF-I Macross, the Valkyries and Desroids, but its a shame we have so little information on Zent/Melt technologies.

- Tak

probably because the zentradi/meltradi themselves do not really understand the equipments they have used for thousands of years.

they only know how to repair and maintain them, at the time before zentradi/human integration zentradi's were battle harden, efficient fighting race, but had an average IQ of a 5yr old in all other aspects.

the only techy stuff we got is what humans have managed to reverse engineer and manufacture themselves.

also i reckon they aren't in a rush to push out an insane amount of details to leave room for growth, after all macross has survived until know and i won't be surprised if it'll live until we are all grey or dead.

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Old 2008-04-26, 01:33   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post

they only know how to repair and maintain them, at the time before zentradi/human integration zentradi's were battle harden, efficient fighting race, but had an average IQ of a 5yr old in all other aspects.
That depends. The Zents on top of the hierarchy are very intelligent beings. Exedore, for example, is basically a mobile computer and a walking encyclopedia.

Meh, but we will see. Hell, we don't even know anything about the Vajra yet.

- Tak (That, and elven ears seem to be a new feature for the Zents/Melts. The original Zents/Melts never ever had elven features!)
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Old 2008-04-27, 02:10   Link #24
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Not sure if this is spoiler since it IS in the opening, but can someone identify this mecha? I actually didn't even notice it until I pause for a screenshot.

Spoiler for scene:
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Old 2008-04-27, 02:50   Link #25
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That's a VB-6 Konig Monster.

Bastard child of a Valkyrie and a Destroid.

Spoiler for mecha:
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Old 2008-04-27, 08:47   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepiraph View Post
Not sure if this is spoiler since it IS in the opening, but can someone identify this mecha? I actually didn't even notice it until I pause for a screenshot.
You don't know the infamous Konig Monster? *GASP* *Heart stops*

Heh heh. Yeah, thats the Monster alright. The original Monster in Macross was deemed too slow, so the UN SPACY decided to create a mobilized version of the Monster in order to deploy them on a rapid basis. It first appeared on the game Digital Mission VF-X 2 for the Playstation.

Its pretty much a weapon even the Zents would go 'Holy sh*t'!

That beast is equipped with 4 rail guns and 4 missile launchers, and if anyone of you play Warhammer 40K, one certain unit has very similar weapon configuration as the Monster.

- Tak
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Old 2008-04-27, 12:41   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
probably because the zentradi/meltradi themselves do not really understand the equipments they have used for thousands of years.

they only know how to repair and maintain them, at the time before zentradi/human integration zentradi's were battle harden, efficient fighting race, but had an average IQ of a 5yr old in all other aspects.
While the Zentradi don't have as much understanding of their technologies as they may like, they seem capable of designing new equipment from their factory ships. They may be naive in a lot of ways, but stupid or unintelligent they certainly are not - what they mostly lacked was a proper frame of reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
also i reckon they aren't in a rush to push out an insane amount of details to leave room for growth, after all macross has survived until know and i won't be surprised if it'll live until we are all grey or dead.
I think that it's more a case of not giving out details until they become necessary. It's a good way to approach things as it still allows for a sense of mystery, and it avoids the kind of ugly flubs that other franchises make. A lot of this stems from Kawamori, since he's a big time military otaku, and I think that he's quite concerned about getting the numbers wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakCWAL View Post
That depends. The Zents on top of the hierarchy are very intelligent beings. Exedore, for example, is basically a mobile computer and a walking encyclopedia.
And there's other leaders like Britai and Kamjin who were every bit as good as their human counterparts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepiraph View Post
Not sure if this is spoiler since it IS in the opening, but can someone identify this mecha? I actually didn't even notice it until I pause for a screenshot.
Anything that shows up in the OP is fair game - it'd only be considered a spoiler if any discussion of the OP is based on things that haven't aired yet (either from a manga, or game, or what have you). As ReddyRedWolf and Tak pointed out, it's the Monster, and it's an iconic Macross mecha. Moreover, I believe that it's the only mecha to have appeared in both Macross Zero and the other animated works (which means that the basic design has lasted from 2008-2059!).
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Old 2008-04-27, 12:58   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
While the Zentradi don't have as much understanding of their technologies as they may like, they seem capable of designing new equipment from their factory ships. They may be naive in a lot of ways, but stupid or unintelligent they certainly are not - what they mostly lacked was a proper frame of reference.
They didn 't designing thier weapons, they have automat factories that can create weapons, with the desing the have incorporated from the time when they were build, the zentraedi didn't have culture so they can create anything nor repair things, that is one of the premises from the original macross
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Old 2008-04-27, 13:20   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Cadorna View Post
They didn 't designing thier weapons, they have automat factories that can create weapons, with the desing the have incorporated from the time when they were build, the zentraedi didn't have culture so they can create anything nor repair things, that is one of the premises from the original macross
Interesting, as I've never came across source materials that stated the Zentradi were unable to repair their equipment, nor have I encountered any evidence to indicate such in the original show. We just never see them do it.

Although it would be impossible for the Zents not to have field medics, since losing an Exedore, a Vrlitwhai or a Boddole would dealt a great blow to an entire Zent fleet.

However, judging from the VF-X or Macross VO games, the Zents have shown an aptitude of creating and incorporating new technology into their equipment. Such as the creation of a Zjentohlauedy-exclusive variable fighter.

- Tak
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Old 2008-04-27, 14:04   Link #30
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that traits for create weapons, was adquiried from the human after their firts encounters, i don 't know anything about the medics, but i think is the same.
if you see the original SDF Macross ep 10 to 12 they speak about the Zent and they lack of culture
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Old 2008-04-27, 15:50   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Cadorna View Post
that traits for create weapons, was adquiried from the human after their firts encounters, i don 't know anything about the medics, but i think is the same.
if you see the original SDF Macross ep 10 to 12 they speak about the Zent and they lack of culture
They lack culture, but lacking culture and being able to repair one's own ship or perform medical necessities are two different things. Once again, the original Macross or associated source materials never stated the Zents could not perform medical and/or other restoration feats.

Notable Zents like Exedore is possibly far more intelligent than humans, being the primary archivist and pretty much a walking computer. He is seen often trying to collect samples and analyzing the said specimen.

Creating new weapons notwithstanding, prior to meeting humans, the Zents had absolutely no need for new weapons and/or technology. The SDF Macross to them was nothing more than a gunboat, which they had many in possession equal in size and power. Even as far as variable vehicles go, it simply just wasn't popular amongst the Zents, who prefer powered armor and battle suits. Episode 4 in Macross F pretty much indicated that some weapons left from hundreds of years ago are still terribly potent, and perhaps even more powerful than their human counterparts. Therefore, what reason is there to create newer guns when old designs can get the job done?

- Tak
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Old 2008-04-27, 16:57   Link #32
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i think they can repair, after all, it is one of the basics of army requirements. Even if you cannot manufacture new weapons, you must be able to keep your weapons functional.

ask any soldier and they will tell you that they have to be able to field strip a standard weapon for cleaning and repairs. or a Tanker and he will show you have to repair the tracks or fix the engine with available spares.

i have in no doubt the zentradi will be able to do this for their rifles and armoursuits

however, the fleet themselves don't seem to mention anything about "factory" ships, as in having an entire ship to manufacturing new equipments.

since they mentioned that all equipments was provided by automated factories, in which they also give a specific mention of when the LAST one stopped production.

it is in my opinion that all zentradi ships were able to manufacture it's own supplies of spare parts and simple weapons and equipments to at lease keep all the remaining troops armed with functional weapons.

i don't think the zentradi had the capacity to create new weapons or equipments, but i think they will have a high degree of improvisation, in that they will be able to repair weaponry from other parts, this intuitive instinct of being able to improvise weapons and use them efficiently would be idea for a warrior race, but the lack of imagination or culture will prevent them from designing new things.
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Old 2008-04-27, 18:18   Link #33
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Onizuka-GTO the reason why Kamjin in Macross said it was an irony that Humans giving Zentradi culture would mean their destruction is that they did not have the technical skills to maintain or repair their equipment until the Humans taught them how to.

Notice the level of disrepair on Bretai's flagship. It tells you that the Zentradi back then had squat engineering ability.

As Klein Klan said their equipment has a satisfaction guaranteed stamp, so it doesn't need a waranty.
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Old 2008-04-27, 18:42   Link #34
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Onizuka-GTO the reason why Kamjin in Macross said it was an irony that Humans giving Zentradi culture would mean their destruction is that they did not have the technical skills to maintain or repair their equipment until the Humans taught them how to.
The reason why Quamzin said it was ironic because the shock-factor of culture no longer worked as a viable weapon against Zent forces, as Quamzin had demonstrated near the latter half of Macross.

You will also note that there were approximately 1,000 ~ 2,000 Zent fleets still in the known galaxy, each with 4 million vessels or more mentioned in Macross. According to other materials, after Space War I, UN SPACY encountered some such forces and had a rather difficult time pacifying them since they were introduced with elements of culture or had the capacity to filter out culture (such as the Minmei attack).

With this kind of overwhelming numerical superiority, the ability to repair and reconstruct suddenly becomes secondary. That is, regardless of the Zents' knowledge to perform the said tasks in the first place.

However, the first wave of Zent spies into Macross (the trio) were shown to have the capacity to maintain their tactical pod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
As Klein Klan said their equipment has a satisfaction guaranteed stamp, so it doesn't need a waranty.
Quran Quran's exact lines were "ゼントラーディの武器は優秀だ!" simply indicating the excellence of Zent weapon design. She did not, however, resolve the question of, "gee, what if it was damaged (by external forces or by accident)?"

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-04-27 at 21:20.
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Old 2008-04-27, 18:45   Link #35
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i remenber one scene where the Max plane broke one monitor and for the entire series the monitor is broken and nobody care about repairing it.
Other example is the glaug

" The Glaug was customarily used much more frequently in the Zentradi mecha forces but has become somewhat of a rarity in the modern age of Space War One. Roughly 280,000 cycles before the present era, the Supervision Army succeeded in an all-front attack upon the Roiquonmi fully automated weapons factory, thus seriously reducing the Zentradi's supply of Glaug mecha. The rarity of the Glaug remained so since until roughly 3,700 cycles before the present era, a supply of nearly new Glaug units was recovered from an opened weapons storage facility leading to somewhat of a small renaissance for the Glaug. Kamjin Kravshera repeatedly made use of a Glaug during his campaigns in Space War One and possessed a supply of the mecha to replace damaged units. "

This is quouted from one of te macross mecha book in a site
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Old 2008-04-27, 19:07   Link #36
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i remenber one scene where the Max plane broke one monitor and for the entire series the monitor is broken and nobody care about repairing it.
You do notice that the same flagship never really stopped at a supply joint to get repairs? It was always on a sortie, and parked only a few light years away from the SDF-1 Macross because that was its mission. A broken glass is not severe to the entire vessel's well being. In fact, I applaud the animator's consistency on the matter.

Even modern naval vessels we have would not store 'spare' glass on board or other important equipment. To get repairs and resupply, you will always have to stop somewhere. For the US navy, in order to replace important equipment, naval vessels most certainly need to stop within the military ports of the US, for it is only there could they get replacements in the required specs.

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" The Glaug was customarily used much more frequently in the Zentradi mecha forces but has become somewhat of a rarity in the modern age of Space War One. Roughly 280,000 cycles before the present era, the Supervision Army succeeded in an all-front attack upon the Roiquonmi fully automated weapons factory, thus seriously reducing the Zentradi's supply of Glaug mecha. The rarity of the Glaug remained so since until roughly 3,700 cycles before the present era, a supply of nearly new Glaug units was recovered from an opened weapons storage facility leading to somewhat of a small renaissance for the Glaug. Kamjin Kravshera repeatedly made use of a Glaug during his campaigns in Space War One and possessed a supply of the mecha to replace damaged units. "
The lack of means to reproduce is not equal to the lack of means to restore.

Thus this made maintenance all the more important. Notice how Quamzin always came back with that same Gluag, but most definitely repaired? The Zents also had salvage ships to recover damaged units.

Then there is Milia. who had that one special suit. Moreover, Milia was shown to be severely hurt after her duel with MAX (DYRL), but she apparently returned to full-health within days. Clearly an indication that they have medical technology.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-04-27 at 23:55.
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Old 2008-04-30, 02:08   Link #37
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In honor of the Queadluun-Rau finally making it back to Macross television...
From the Macross Mecha Manual:

Quote:
Quimeliquola Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit



Technical Data

Equipment Type: Zentradi female division high-maneuverability battle suit
Government: Zentradi Army
Manufacturer: Quimeliquola 74710020692nd Zentradi Fully-automated Weapon Development and Production
Accommodation: pilot only
Dimensions: height 16.75 meters (18.8 meters including antennae); width 18.4 meters; length 10.8 meters
Mass: total mass 32.5 metric tons
Power Plant: two 2.1 GGV class Quimeliquola thermonuclear converters
Propulsion: two booster thrusters; many x vernier thrusters
Design Features: main cockpit screen; main sensor mounted in head; many x other sensors; Quimeliquola special inertia vector control system.
Armament:
  • 2 x medium-bore fire-linked impact cannons (mounted front torso)
  • 2 x air-to-air high-speed-rotating tri-barrel laser pulse guns (one per arm)
  • 4 x close-combat short-range super-miniature missile launchers (one per
left/right engine mount and one per left/right knee) with 21 x high-maneuverability missiles each (overall standard payload: 126 missiles)
The Queadluun-Rau was the most powerful of the original Zentradi mecha, and they were exclusively piloted by elite female pilots. Even though it was the largest of the Zentradi mecha, it was also the most maneuverable (thanks to the vector control system), and probably the best acceleration as well (based on what we see on-screen). With its huge arsenal of missiles, it can (and does) do massive damage against an enemy formation, and speed away before they can react.

Unfortunately, there are no concrete performance notes for the mecha, but there's plenty that can be drawn through interpretation of what data we have. Compared to the VF-1, the Queadluun-Rau is greatly superior in just about every way except for a lack of long-ranged weapons and having a much larger target profile. Therefore it's not much of a stretch to assume that it can match the VF-1 in every performance envelop (with the possible exception of atmospheric flight).

As a development platform, the Queadluun-Rau has seen a great deal of longevity: it served as the basis of the both the YF-21's battloid configuration and its own vector system. Moreover, as we see in Macross Frontier, there's an updated version of the mecha in production; and its employment suggests that it's been given a similar developmental consideration to the brand-new VF-25. Since the external cues and weapons layout are almost identical between the new and vintage models of the Queadluun-Rau, that speaks volumes as to how highly its original concept was viewed by the military.


On a personal note, the Queadluun-Rau is my favorite SDF Macross mecha to have never shown up in Battletech (admittedly, there aren't all that many that didn't ), and it's one of my favorite mecha in general. Nothing says "female mecha" better than this particular design (even though it's more or less headless ), and I'm very happy to see it get a new lease in Macross.
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Old 2008-04-30, 12:16   Link #38
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i do like the headless configuration, i mean it's such an obvious target.

Why have all your sensors concentrated in an appendage that can be simply shot or knocked off, when you can just add it low, towards the body where it won't be picked off as easy and be better armoured? Most Zentradi armour reflect that, unless the are wearing the armoured suits.

but anyway, its true, a good design is one that stays consistent, like the Valkyrie plane configuration, although they don't need the atmospheric design anymore, since engine power and anti-gravity mass-dampers are available, a flying brick would work just as well if you want vehicle that can be used in space and on a gravity well.
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Old 2008-04-30, 16:01   Link #39
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
In honor of the Queadluun-Rau finally making it back to
The Queadluun-Rau was the most powerful of the original Zentradi mecha, and they were exclusively piloted by elite female pilots. Even though it was the largest of the Zentradi mecha, it was also the most maneuverable (thanks to the vector control system), and probably the best acceleration as well (based on what we see on-screen). With its huge arsenal of missiles, it can (and does) do massive damage against an enemy formation, and speed away before they can react.
I absolute agree with the Queadluun-Rau being one of the finest machines in Macross. It was also beautiful, to boot. It had excellent speed, maneuverability, protection and to-the-point-no-bullshit firepower. If anyone played ANOTHER CENTURY EPISODE, you will know what I am talking about.

Although I am a bit unsure on its status within the Zentradi/Meltlandi equipment hierarchy. The Nousjadeul-Ger units were clearly meant to be a match (especially if you take DYRL into account), and the Meltlandi would not pilot anything BUT the Queadluun-Rau. Hundreds were shot down in the original TV series, as well as in DYRL.

Aside from Milia, there simply wasn't any notable Meltlandi aces until Chlore was introduced in Macross 7 (who, like Milia, doesn't seem to age). Milia was simply too good of a pilot, and managed to make the Queadluun-Rau to shine even brighter. The only male to ever have the honor of piloting the Queadluun-Rau was Max. Kudos to him, that lucky bastard.

On a Side Note

I am glad the Queadluun-Rau did not make it into BTech. Then again, if it did, BTech would have to come up with a rather lengthy description. It looked uniquely Alien in Macross, and would definitely look out-of-place within the BTech universe.

Another unit that had the fortune of being left out from the BTECH universe was the 'MONSTER' Desroid. Imagine if the MONSTER made it into BTECH, which ever faction to receive them would immediately become the most popular. Four rail guns are just too difficult to resist...

- Tak
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Old 2008-04-30, 16:16   Link #40
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you know, i never really understood the practice of this so called "unseen" i know they had to drop destroids designs due to being sued, but they did still used some of them due to this "unseen" practice.

can anyone explain to me, how come this manage to get around the lawsuit?
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