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Old 2008-04-28, 18:24   Link #2821
harmonious
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Frankly, there is nothing in Dominura's storyline to indicate that she didn't know if she wanted to be a man or woman which is the crux of Onashia's background. She wanted to be at the Spring to guide others so they didn't make the same mistake she did.

There are other indicators that they aren't the same such as Onashia and Dominura being of two different heights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Onashia couldn't be embraced because of the changes her body went through when she decided not to change her gender. I think the series stated pretty clearly that she had to cover her skin because it would whither away if she didn't.
Yeah, what's your point?

Onashia didn't lament over what she had lost, but of what she couldn't have, indicating she never had it to begin with. Dominura has Limone and there is nothing in the story to indicate that they are at any point separated, ever.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-04-28 at 18:38.
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Old 2008-04-28, 18:39   Link #2822
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Frankly, there is nothing in Dominura's storyline to indicate that she didn't know if she wanted to be a man or woman.
Umm, have you been paying attention? She was running away from her choice. When she is together with Limone before performing the Emerald Ri Maajon, she tells her she found her so impressive because of the sheer defiance of the rules she had, and that their future was to be found escaping from the impositions the world had placed upon them. Watch the episode again and you'll see it.

Quote:

Onashia didn't lament over what she had lost, but of what she couldn't have, indicating she never had it to begin with.
She was a Sybilla! She was a member of Chor Dextra, just like Dominura. Have you been paying attention to the series at all? She never said she was always like that. She said her turning into such a being was due to her not choosing her gender.
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Old 2008-04-28, 18:45   Link #2823
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Umm, have you been paying attention? She was running away from her choice. When she is together with Limone before performing the Emerald Ri Maajon, she tells her she found her so impressive because of the sheer defiance of the rules she had, and that their future was to be found escaping from the impositions the world had placed upon them. Watch the episode again and you'll see it.
There is nothing there to suggest she was running away from her choice.

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
She was a Sybilla! She was a member of Chor Dextra, just like Dominura. Have you been paying attention to the series at all? She never said she was always like that. She said her turning into such a being was due to her not choosing her gender.
There were many members of Chor Dextra and many many attempts at completing the Emerald Ri Maajon. No one said she was always like that. Onashia's words indicate that she never had anyone to love prior to her transforming. Dominura clearly did have someone to love, Limone.

Please, explain the height difference. Did Dominura grow 10 cm when she became sparkly?
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Old 2008-04-29, 00:52   Link #2824
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Quote:
There is nothing there to suggest she was running away from her choice.
I think we're either watching different series, or you didn't interpret Dominura at all the way, I believe, most people did. For you, then, what are Dominura's intentions, and how can you explain her fixation on Limone? What is her reason to attempt the Emerald Ri Maajon? What is her drive? Did you really understand the character, or did you really ask yourself these questions when watching the series? Posing such questions is vital when trying to understand and enjoy a series based on character development.

Quote:
Onashia's words indicate that she never had anyone to love prior to her transforming. Dominura clearly did have someone to love, Limone.
I will quote Onashia's exact words, from the now-unnameable fansub translations that originally delivered the series to us:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onashia, beginning of episode 24
I have lived for all these years... without ever making a decision. This [her withering body, and also referring to her inability to touch another person]... is my penance. I was unable to become an Eternal Maiden. Nor was I able to go to another world. I remained here. Never to touch another, never to be held by another. Yet still... I remained here.
The scene ends with her saying she was chosen as the keeper of the Spring to serve as an example, and Yun walking away. I'm certainly puzzled as to where you find in her words that she says she never had someone to love. She does say, however, that she was waiting for someone like Yun, but that someone is referring to a person who will willingly carry the weight of her sin to liberate her from her punishment.

Quote:
Please, explain the height difference. Did Dominura grow 10 cm when she became sparkly?
That is certainly something that can either be explained in a silly way (as in, "she grew up"), or simply not have a clear explanation. But I think dismissing all the possibilities of perfecting Dominura and Onashia's development as characters as a huge red herring based simply on such an inane characteristic is, well, quite silly.

But it's up to each person to believe what they want. As I explained numerous times, the reason why I choose to believe that Dominura is Onashia is because it strengthens the development of both characters, and as I said, dismissing it as a huge red herring without a true explanation makes the plotline regarding both characters a huge blunder.

I'm curious as to what Kaoru Chujo has to say on this point, as one of the most devoted members among the Simoun fan community.
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Old 2008-04-29, 15:03   Link #2825
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I think we're either watching different series, or you didn't interpret Dominura at all the way, I believe, most people did.
Great that you can speak for most people.

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
For you, then, what are Dominura's intentions, and how can you explain her fixation on Limone? What is her reason to attempt the Emerald Ri Maajon? What is her drive? Did you really understand the character, or did you really ask yourself these questions when watching the series? Posing such questions is vital when trying to understand and enjoy a series based on character development.
Originally she wanted to do the Emerald Ri Maajon because that was what she was assigned to do it, her loyalty to the Holy Land and Tempus Spatium motivated her. Then the reason switched to Limone wanting to do the Emerald Ri Maajon. In fact, Limone was her sole reason for going on living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I will quote Onashia's exact words, from the now-unnameable fansub translations that originally delivered the series to us:

The scene ends with her saying she was chosen as the keeper of the Spring to serve as an example, and Yun walking away. I'm certainly puzzled as to where you find in her words that she says she never had someone to love. She does say, however, that she was waiting for someone like Yun, but that someone is referring to a person who will willingly carry the weight of her sin to liberate her from her punishment.
I simply say it implies that she never had a lover. No motivation to choose a sex, similar to Yuna. Dominura has Limone, there is no reason to make me think that they would separate or that Dominura wouldn't choose a sex. If they separated, there would be no reason for Dominura to continue on with her existence as Limone is the center of her world.

The conversation makes me think that she was alone and unable to become an Eternal Maiden because she had no co-pilot to fly a Simoun.


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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
That is certainly something that can either be explained in a silly way (as in, "she grew up"), or simply not have a clear explanation. But I think dismissing all the possibilities of perfecting Dominura and Onashia's development as characters as a huge red herring based simply on such an inane characteristic is, well, quite silly.
No clear explanation? You are trying to put a square shape in a round hole. The only fact there is, is that Onashia is 10cm taller. Either Dominura is really 19 and can technically grow a bit taller and the sparkly stuff coming from her means nothing more than a sign of being past 17 or she is much older than 19 in which she can't grow taller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
But it's up to each person to believe what they want. As I explained numerous times, the reason why I choose to believe that Dominura is Onashia is because it strengthens the development of both characters, and as I said, dismissing it as a huge red herring without a true explanation makes the plotline regarding both characters a huge blunder.
You believing that Onashia and Dominura lack in their in development is a biased motive for wanting to try and connect them together. I think Dominura being one of two that went back in time to teach the first settlers how to fly is quite significant as far as the plot goes.

If you want to base it on lack of development, I think Amuria is on the top of the list. Anything can be speculated. Amuria is the only one missing completely, thrown somewhere in time. It was also pointed out that Amuria and Aeru, who wanted to live eternally, were very similar and Amuria really wanted to complete the Emerald Ri Maajon. Naturally she would join Chor Dextra if given the chance.
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Old 2008-04-29, 16:24   Link #2826
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Quote:
Originally she wanted to do the Emerald Ri Maajon because that was what she was assigned to do it, her loyalty to the Holy Land and Tempus Spatium motivated her. Then the reason switched to Limone wanting to do the Emerald Ri Maajon. In fact, Limone was her sole reason for going on living.
lol

I'm sorry, but I can do nothing more than to laugh. People who read my posts here know that I'm seldom disrespectful towards another poster, and that I'm open to different interpretations, especially when it comes to art. But when something as beautiful as Dominura's tragic development is simplified in such a hideous way, I can't do anything else but laugh--not a laughter of joy, though, because I feel you've watched Simoun and barely understood anything from it, or at least regarding Dominura's development.

Loyalty to the Holy Land? Dominura's main motivation towards the end of her development as a character has to do with running away from her responsibilities! Limone piques her interest in such a passionate way because she represents defiance--one of their first interactions involves Limone telling her to "go away". Limone's initial development in the first episodes (due to Aaeru's influence) has her turn from a dutifully respecting child into a rebellious girl. Dominura is fascinated by this, because Limone represents her inner desire to run away from the pressure around her--which includes both the pressure from the church to complete the Emerald Ri Maajon and the social requirement of finally growing up and maturing, which is represented by the choice her gender. The main reason why Dominura is so fixated upon Limone is very probably related to the fact that the latter is still a child in every sense--she's not even an adolescent, and she lacks the responsibilities older people have to deal with. That's why, in the final conversation in the forest before their Emerald Ri Maajon, Dominura tells her that they're both alike. Limone is a child without responsibilities, and Dominura wishes to remain as one.

Now, this whole circle regarding Dominura's development comes to a perfect close when we know of Onashia's fate for not choosing her gender and the final scenes of Dominura living in "another world" are shown, where she is getting weaker and ultimately begins to leave the same golden sparkles Onashia did. Dominura's story is a tragic one indeed, because, even if she's not Onashia, she ends up suffering the same demise. Now, I believe a much, much more beautiful and perfect way of soldering the relationship between Dominura and Onashia would be to consider them as the same character--you're free to believe what you wish, because the show doesn't explicitly pronounce itself in one way or the other. But, given the numerous hints we are give, I consider the show would be much, much more beautiful if we do consider that possibility.

Quote:
I simply say it implies that she never had a lover. No motivation to choose a sex, similar to Yuna. Dominura has Limone, there is no reason to make me think that they would separate or that Dominura wouldn't choose a sex. If they separated, there would be no reason for Dominura to continue on with her existence as Limone is the center of her world.
Well, okay, perhaps my Dominashia theory is crazy, but at least it's grounded on several hints the series provides us. Yours about Onashia is grounded in absolutely nothing at all. Nothing in the series says anything that may help us draw that conclusion about Onashia and her lack of a lover. Why would she need a lover to choose her gender? I mean, more than half of the Simoun cast does so without having one. What Onashia says, at least to me, implies that she wanted to run away from her responsibilities. You know, the whole series is based on the contraposition between the freedom of a child and the responsibilities brought about by maturing. Aaeru and Neviril are the perfection of eternal childhood--Onashia, and ultimately Dominura (even if we don't consider them as the same character) represent the failure of the "eternal maiden".

Quote:
No clear explanation? You are trying to put a square shape in a round hole. The only fact there is, is that Onashia is 10cm taller. Either Dominura is really 19 and can technically grow a bit taller and the sparkly stuff coming from her means nothing more than a sign of being past 17 or she is much older than 19 in which she can't grow taller.
As I said before, it's a silly minor detail. I would much rather sacrifice those 10 cm and have a perfectly closed circle than to claim "Onashia can't be Dominura, even though we have a lot of hints pointing in that direction, because... umm, she's taller! Yeah!". I'd rather have Matrim's respectable speculations than base myself on such a silly detail. If you choose to do so, go ahead, I have no problem about it.

Quote:
You believing that Onashia and Dominura lack in their in development is a biased motive for wanting to try and connect them together. I think Dominura being one of two that went back in time to teach the first settlers how to fly is quite significant as far as the plot goes.
Hell yeah it's biased, because we're talking about art and interpretation. However, I repeat myself for the umpteenth time, what would you rather have? A number of hints that are not solidly connected to each other, acting as a huge red herring, or a "biased" approach (*gasp!* The horror! The viewer making an interpretation out of a piece of art!) and close the circle in a beautiful manner that leaves the characters much more richly developed?

Quote:
If you want to base it on lack of development
I never said that. I think the characters are developed even if you don't take into account the Dominashia interpretation, but doing so closes the circle in a more beautiful manner. It would make Onashia seem much less disconnected to the Simoun cast than what she seems right now (her lack of appearance and relevance throughout the whole series is a bit of a weakness in her development, which is nevertheless very good), and it would make us see and understand the true consequences of Dominura's choice and her tragic future.

Quote:
I think Amuria is on the top of the list.
Probably, but we're not discussing Amuria, are we?
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Old 2008-04-29, 16:59   Link #2827
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Old 2008-05-19, 19:32   Link #2828
Sezren
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post

As I said before, it's a silly minor detail. I would much rather sacrifice those 10 cm and have a perfectly closed circle than to claim "Onashia can't be Dominura, even though we have a lot of hints pointing in that direction, because... umm, she's taller! Yeah!". I'd rather have Matrim's respectable speculations than base myself on such a silly detail. If you choose to do so, go ahead, I have no problem about it.
The 10 cm are not a silly minor detail. They are a clear distinction. However they are actually an indication for Onashia = Dominura. Why? When do humans stop to grow? When they have "grown up". So if she never "grows up" there is reason to assume that she will not stop growing. So it would not be surprising to have her grow 10 cm in 400 (or whatever) years.
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Old 2008-06-04, 13:15   Link #2829
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Eternal growth hormone? Interesting idea.
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Old 2008-06-04, 19:44   Link #2830
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The glittering was never specifically shown to have come from Dominura, it could have been coming from Limone and Dominura as a couple, as far as I could see.

Also I'd say 2-4 years had passed since they'd landed in the other world, isn't it possible that anyone who doesn't choose a sex will start glittering eventually, but because Onashia was running away with nowhere to run to, she was chosen to be the keeper of the spring to make sure nobody else would suffer her fate ?

The Dominashia theory is as crazy to me as Mikuru = Kyon's Sister, probably because I like to remain optimistic about the future of Limone and Dominura
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Old 2008-06-09, 01:08   Link #2831
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*is about to start watching Simoun*

I keep seeing this mentioned in "shows that more people need to watch" threads (it couldn't be as bad as History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi in this field, though; it seems like Simoun threads pop up on /a/ once every few weeks, where as Kenichi talk anywhere is kind of rare, and I definitely notice the latter more than the former when its around, since I like Kenichi a lot) and keep hearing talk about how likable the characters are, so I figured that I'd check it out.

Of course, I have yet to see a lesbian animu that I really liked (unless you count Mai HiME, but Mikoto, Shizuru, and the glasses chick were all supporting characters with unrequited love, so I don't really consider that to be a lesbian anime), and I've seen people compare it with Last Exile in terms of how it tells its story (which I enjoyed, but more in a 7/10 kind of way... the story telling felt kind of slow for some reason; looking back, I don't think that I'd rewatch it), so...

Also, Floe and Yun are hot. >_>

I'll comment as I'm watching.


Episode 1:

-OP is exactly what I expected it to be from the look of the show: .hack mid-episode music-sounding OP. I always find these forgettable, even if I watch the OP a dozen times over the course of the series.

-The king demands that all female pilots make out before takeoff!

-The art style kind of looks like it was supposed to be budget friendly...

-You're an idiot, Naviril. That's a fighter jet, and you're a guard. They're not maintaining the simouns (and paying for fuel if it needs it) and paying to train you and have you fly it just to "please the divine will".

-Drawing magic seals in the sky with fighter jets. That's an interesting concept.

-Hey, we're about to be shot down unless we do something. Let's make out.

-Good job, Neviril. Your hesitation got your partner killed.

-Sky diving without a parachute.

-The others need to learn from Aearu's backbone.

-This episode didn't remind me of Last Exile at all aside from both of them having planes as compared to mechs.


Episode 2:

-Aearu don't need none of your fancy magic seals to shoot the enemy down!

-All people in Simoun come out of the womb female? I'm surprised that half of them chose to be men. Getting a sex change would be beyond awkward.

-Persistence works.

-"If I don't become a man, I'll limit my career choices!" Wow. That's a surprising thing to hear considering that they all start off as girls. Do they forbid women from some career fields in order to provide incentive for them to turn male?

-You know, for constantly being praised for being beautiful, Neviril isn't all that hot.

-Onashia looks evil.

-Prepare to sprout a dick.

-Don't worry. I'd cry too if my manhood was going to fall off and turn into a slit over the course of course of the next year or so.


Episode 3:

-Haven't really seen much of any of the characters except for Aearu and Naviril (like the former, indifferent to the latter), but I get good vibes from Floe and Morinas too. (I get dull vibes from the rest, though) Looks like this one is going to focus on Morinas, and she's with Floe in the OP... Morinas and Floe episode?

-"If you want to become simoun sybyllae. you should walk proudly, without fear." You wouldn't guess that that was part of their code what with all of them cowering in the first episode and 3 of them running away afterwards. >_>

-Actually, my opinion on Neviril is starting to border on dislike...

-Now that I think about it, its kind of surprising that Aearu and Morinas want to pair up with someone that's pouting in their little corner. They both seem like the sorts that have no patience for procrastination


Episode 4:

-Paraietta is just jealous because she's not as likable or awesome as Aearu and Morinas.

-You're so tasteless, Aearu. Morinas >= Floe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naviril.

-Argh. Quit holing yourself up in your room and acting all self-important, Naviril.

-Not quiet as good in hand-to-hand combat as she is at flying a simoun.

-He's so sick that he even thinks in pained gasps.

-Protip: Keep a gun on you in case you ever happen to crash near the enemy.

-No, you standing there and yelling and waving your hands wouldn't make the ploy obvious at all if he were still alive to fall for it.

-*Limone cowers and cries* This is why lolis don't belong on the battlefield.


Episode 5:

-Limone's been traumatized.

-First an incompatible partner, then a traumatized partner who's not as good as she was a few days ago... Aearu's just not having any luck.

-I like Floe otherwise, but she needs lighten up on Limone.

-At least Floe's trying to empower her a bit now.

-This is what you get for putting a traumatized loli in the pilot seat.


Episode 6

-It would really suck to become a man in Simoun-verse... unless you get lucky, you're always going to have a girl's or little boy's voice. Even if you become rugged and muscular, you're never going to be truly manly.

-The uptight tool X the glasses ***** that's a jerk to her sister. My OTP.

-I can see a wrecked mental state from shock or grief or loneliness or something, but THAT'S why she hasn't continued piloting yet? It pretty obvious just from the bit that they showed of Amuria that she'd get on Naviril's case for not continuing to lead and pilot.

-At least the glasses ***** has Neviril right. Damned spoiled brat.

-Don't forget who you're talking to, Kaimu. Paraietta is Naviril's *****.

-"I think she's probably lonely. Everyone must be." And having Naviril go back to being in command will fix that? Naviril may give them some organization, but she doesn't like the type that would help the group socialize and have fun. That seems like Aearu's, Floe's, and Morinas' territory. They're the cheerful social butterflies. Then again, I guess that Naviril back in command = they start getting missions = they stay busy + they start working together more = they're not lonely.

-Kaimu's more likable when she's not interacting with her sister. Then again, she has a crush on Paraietta, so...

-Incest, sister, test, etc.

-She was afraid of betraying Paraietta again? That's even dumber, considering that Paraietta has made it clear that she'd prefer it if she continued piloting.

-So she's given up on her? Does this mean that Paraietta is going to stop being a tool now?

-You wouldn't guess that Aearu was any good in melee combat from the way that she got her ass handed to her by that fatally ill guy.


So far, as far as yuri series go, it already has KnM beat just by having main characters that I actually like (I was always split on Himeko and thought that Chikane and Soma were merely decent; the only characters I liked were on the villain side), and it doesn't seem like its going to suffer from the same problem that killed YamiBou (boring lead and irritating antagonist), assuming that it doesn't REALLY shift the focus away from Aearu and onto Naviril, which I don't think it will. (I get the feeling that they're going to have the duel lead with equal focus thing going on once Naviril finally decides to stop moping, kind of like what Nanoha does, except with both leads being well developed)

As of episode 6, Aearu's my favorite, though I like Floe and Morinas too, and Paraietta and Kaimu have potential to become likable. Limone is alright.

I don't like Naviril... and for some reason, I'm getting the feeling that I'm going to dislike her for some reason or another throughout.

Last edited by Bloodseeker; 2008-06-09 at 03:25.
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Old 2008-06-09, 09:52   Link #2832
LaFajita
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All due respect, Bloodseeker,

But you're overlooking some important things here:

The king does not command the lip-locking, the simouns do. The things won't fly unless the crew swaps spit. If your anticipated maneuver is a real gobstopper, shove your tongue down the auriga's throat. It could work.

Naviril, you are not an idiot. You are a daughter of a privileged class (and you are sitting in that simoun because you are a member of that class) who is very good at offering Ri Maajon prayers to Tempus Spatium. That the pretty patterns have lethal consequences is not part of your normal workday. The simoun choirs have been used to swat down the occasional interloper, but now at least one nation has been driven to attempt a massive invasion and now your prieshood has "volunteered" your services, because your country, though offering rich rewards for your elite, does not possess enough poor people to slaughter their poor people, thus your leaders cannot maintain their power unless they prostitute your religion. You shouldn't be doing this, and even your head priestesses know this. Therein lies a central conflict in this story, which will be revisited time and time again.

Some other conflicts worth mentioning:

Scenes from the class struggle in Simulacra. You get a hint of this in ep #2 (the train ride), but is really gets in your face when Mamina shows up, and even more so when she leaves the series.

Losing my friends: This could be my biggest gripe about the series. Nevril spends the next seven eps emoting over her lost Amaru, but the two girls who went down in the first combat are apparently chopped liver. They're not the last ones. Two more opt for the Spring, because this isn't what they signed up for, and they still have the right to do so.

Losing my nation: Too many spoilers here, so sit back and enjoy the show, particularly ep#22. The "Defense Minister" gets an interesting "Hitler-in-the-bunker" moment, among other things.

Losing my religion: Revisited at various times, particularly between Dominura and Waporif, the ongoing dialogue concerning the origin of the simouns, and the occasional interventions of a rival priesthood.

If you have a Netflix subscription, rent out Piece of Cake, a Masterpiece Theatre production from the '90's. The parallels in the two stories are quite surprising, particularly when it concerns some warriors who find themselves dumped into the middle of a war.

If you're a hisory buff, reflect on the Japanese experience in WWII, particularly as concerns the war in the Pacific.
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Old 2008-06-09, 18:02   Link #2833
Bloodseeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFajita View Post
All due respect, Bloodseeker,

But you're overlooking some important things here:

The king does not command the lip-locking, the simouns do. The things won't fly unless the crew swaps spit. If your anticipated maneuver is a real gobstopper, shove your tongue down the auriga's throat. It could work.


I'll leave it at that until you figure out why I'm rolling my eyes.

Quote:
Naviril, you are not an idiot. You are a daughter of a privileged class (and you are sitting in that simoun because you are a member of that class) who is very good at offering Ri Maajon prayers to Tempus Spatium. That the pretty patterns have lethal consequences is not part of your normal workday. The simoun choirs have been used to swat down the occasional interloper, but now at least one nation has been driven to attempt a massive invasion and now your prieshood has "volunteered" your services, because your country, though offering rich rewards for your elite, does not possess enough poor people to slaughter their poor people, thus your leaders cannot maintain their power unless they prostitute your religion. You shouldn't be doing this, and even your head priestesses know this. Therein lies a central conflict in this story, which will be revisited time and time again.
So what, they need the Ri Maajon to kill people in order for it to keep its power? Because that's the only way that what you just said makes sense.

Even if you control with fear, you don't need to leer in rule breakers to slaughter to keep that fear in place, just so long as you remember to harshly punish those that do step out of line.

And you'd think that they'd know that learning an art with mass destructive capabilities = they're going to be called upon to use those mass destructive capabilities sooner or later. They were already brought in in order to scare off invaders prior to the series starting. When you think about it, its actually pretty stupid for them not to be trained and bred as warrior-priests when they're the country's guardians. There's no good reason for them not to be. (in before THATS NOT WHAT THEY ARE EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE USED AS THE CENTRAL SCARE TACTIC TO KEEP THE COUNTRY SAFE THE ONLY THING THAT THEY DO IS OFFER PRAYERS IN THE SKY)

Quote:
Some other conflicts worth mentioning:

Scenes from the class struggle in Simulacra. You get a hint of this in ep #2 (the train ride), but is really gets in your face when Mamina shows up, and even more so when she leaves the series.

Losing my friends: This could be my biggest gripe about the series. Nevril spends the next seven eps emoting over her lost Amaru, but the two girls who went down in the first combat are apparently chopped liver. They're not the last ones. Two more opt for the Spring, because this isn't what they signed up for, and they still have the right to do so.
Just because I don't comment on it doesn't mean that I didn't notice, you know.

Quote:
Losing my nation: Too many spoilers here, so sit back and enjoy the show, particularly ep#22. The "Defense Minister" gets an interesting "Hitler-in-the-bunker" moment, among other things.
I figured that the leader that they currently follow would be the villains eventually. The government and church are ones that control with fear (learning our trade secrets = eternal damnation) and hog valuable resources. And the invading nation has been made to be sympathetic, where as the one that they fight for doesn't really have a sympathetic argument going for it.

Also, could you avoid dropping hints or spoilers, please?

Quote:
Losing my religion: Revisited at various times, particularly between Dominura and Waporif, the ongoing dialogue concerning the origin of the simouns, and the occasional interventions of a rival priesthood.
Like I said, avoid hints or spoilers, please. Though I already accidentally glanced over earlier in the page and saw Dominura's identity. D:
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Old 2008-06-10, 01:59   Link #2834
Bloodseeker
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Episode 7

-Man, that other Chor have sticks stuck up their asses.

-This episode looks a little lower budget for some reason.

-The simouns aren't all government property? That's a surprise. With the way that they refuse to let other countries have them and forbid people to take them apart, you'd think that it'd be illegal for a party other than the government to own a simoun.

-Floe's partner isn't going to the spring until she gets her incest, dammit!

-No, Alti. You're the cuter sister. You must remain a woman.

-...And here's reason #3 why I started watching this show. Yun. <3 (the first two being the generally positive reception and Floe)

-Covering up their religious symbols because it might offend the visitors... what a bunch of pussies.

-"Hey everybody, I bet she'll say something like 'Chor Tempest, you don't live up to your reputation.'" I don't see why they find that funny.

-And then they find it funny when she actually says it. "lol she says that we're shitty pilots and its true"

-Aearu doesn't find it funny.

-Its about time that somebody forced Naviril out of her room. Something tells me that she's going to continue to be a prick about it for a while, though.

-Naviril refuses to bond willingly. Time for raep.

-Goddammit Aearu. It was time for raep. You do not interrupt raep time. Mamiina agreed. Don't bother her about it.

-"The new member attacked one of you for interrupting intimate raep bonding time. This team is disbanded." At least this pretty much proves that Neviril is about stop moping since Chor Tempest is done if she can't convince her father to take back his decision.

Episode 8

-Its kind of odd how much strife there is between the chors. You wouldn't think that the groups would hate each other as a whole to the point where they refuse to hang out in the same room.

-"We only flew these weapons capable of mass damage to offer prayers in the sky. We never considered the idea that we'd ever be called to use their mass damage-dealing capabilities in the case of an invasion."

-Protip: Theocracies tend to make for unhappy countries with lots of unfair laws and mentalities. This is why most countries keep church and state separate.

-Haha, "Plumbum". I'd hate to live in a country called Plumbum.

-What a nice priestess. You can see that she clearly wishes for peace by the way that she's pointing a gun at Kaimu's back.

-They really need to invest in some guns. This is the second time that the sybyllae have proven that they're helpless in ground combat up against an enemy with a gun.

-Let me guess, Aearu sharing the same name as Plumbum's (I don't think that I'm ever going to be able to say or hear that without snickering) word for the highest form of love isn't going to be just because her parents thought it was a nice name.

-Looks like Neviril's done sobbing in the corner. Good. Only took her 7 episodes.

-Neviril telling Aearu to fight... role reversal much? Well, Aearu's just in shock from what just happened and probably because she remembered something (that reaction of hers is going to be really stupid if she reacted like that just because she shared the same as a foreign word for love), and she stood up and got ready to go quickly, so maybe not.


Episode 9

-Its your lucky break. You get to be save the day heroes and gain leverage to help prevent you from being disbanded. What convenient timing. Is this what they call a Deus Ex Machina plot device?

-Yeah right. They get a new leader and suddenly they're able to fly perfect formations. That's a skill on an individual level thing, not a leadership thing.

-Does this have something to do with the stupid Japanese mentality of one member steps out of line = the entire group is stepping out of line? Because as far as I can tell, Mamiina's the only one that attacked anybody in the group and the others just restrained her and Aearu who was in defense mode.

-"It was not a battle!" *facepalm*

-Regardless, this is a dumb argument. They're hostile invaders. There's nothing evil about self defense.

-She didn't even argue in favor of keeping the tempest chor together. Now if she had led that into argument that argued in favor of giving them slack due to emotional trauma or something rather than going on a rant about how priestesses are being forced to kill...

-Has there ever been a minister-type character that didn't put an irritating emphasis on rules over practically?

-"Heresy! One army slaughtering another army is NOT fighting a battle. Its praying a prayer!" Oh dear God. Brought in for a ridiculously stupid reason, giving a ridiculously stupid argument in defense (that wasn't even really an argument in favor of keeping the chor together; "BAAAAWWWW we lost comrades and we're priestesses that don't fight"; its almost like she didn't care if they got disbanded; you're a good friend, Naviril, putting ranting about your ideals higher on your priority list than keeping the chor together; and regardless of what she says afterwards, the only thing that she did there was tell the people in charge that they were wrong for making them fight), and then getting chastised for said argument for a ridiculously stupid reason. This is just ridiculously stupid. I want to beat the minister over the head. And all of the authority figures that thought that this hearing was justified. And the chor tempest for not making sure that they had all the facts and attempting to defend themselves from something that dumb. And Naviril for making such a ridiculously stupid argument. And the writers for using this kind of logic. (though maybe ruining the lives, careers, or hobbies of a group for the action of one or two members that weren't acting on behalf of the majority is viewed as justified in Japan for some stupid reason; Bamboo Blade did something like this too)

Last edited by Bloodseeker; 2008-06-10 at 04:39.
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Old 2008-06-10, 06:51   Link #2835
LaFajita
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Bloodseeker,

First of all, *AHEM!* you are on the last of 142 pages of discussion, wherein all details of the story are revealed and much discussed upon, so I can hardly claim to have stolen your innocence as regards Simoun. If you haven't read thru the previous pages, please take the time to do so, as some of the discussion is quite fascinating.

What you say about rule by fear makes perfect sense if the story were being told from the viewpoint of the actual rulers themselves, but this story is being told through the eyes of the Chor priestesses, and the story is largely that of their progression from "light duty", in which their duties are almost exclusively pastoral, and there is an ethic to the occasional slaughter of some unseen interloper who is widely regarded as collateral damage, to "heavy duty", wherein the slaughter pretty much justifies itself.

Please keep in mind that Simulacra has not faced a serious rival power in a long time, and because of this, they just aren't very good at war. The only significant force they possess, the Simoun Chors, are a bunch of oblivious little princesses who can still come and go as they please, even until rather deep into their story, and their irreplaceable aircraft, which their parasitic nation-state has literally dug up out of the ground (Dang! There I go again!). Until our story begins, the simouns of mass destruction have never been severely tested, therefore no aircraft have been lost, and no priestesses killed. There is an awareness of the destructive power of certain patterns, and there is dedicated research into the mystery of the helical motors (which may at some point have been partially solved) but their actual use in "battle" has been in very short, one-sided contests which more resemble the stamping out of vermin.

Please respond to this as you wish. I suspect we agree more than we disagree as to whatever it is that makes the Simoun choo-choo go down the track.
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Old 2008-06-10, 12:06   Link #2836
WanderingKnight
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I think we had already covered the fact that it was the first time the priestesses were driven into battle a few pages ago.
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Old 2008-06-13, 05:56   Link #2837
Bloodseeker
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Why do I get the feeling that the rest of the series isn't going to be free of the kind of stupid shit that the last few episodes had?

Episode 10

-You didn't just snatch their glory away, you snatched it away because one new member that had just joined like a day earlier was a little messed up in the head.

-That's right, Mamiina. Its not your fault that you tried to rape Naviril, tried to kill Aearu when she stopped you, and ended up getting the whole crew demoted because Naviril's influencial father was looking for an excuse to disband Chor Tempest. (its kind of dumb how they're content to just accept that they're somehow all to blame for what happened, when pretty much all the fault from Chor Tempest's side lies with her, and she should have been the only one to take a fall; having the cast act that there's no unfair bullshit going on makes me think that the writers think the scenario was fair and reasonable)

-But Rodoreamon's braids are ugly.

-"Your performance was wonderful too, Naviril." No it wasn't. She just BAAAAAAAAWWWWWed about being forced to fight. She didn't even try to turn it into an argument in the Chor Tempest's defense. The way that they're portraying this, its almost like the writers think that she was making a good argument.

-They really need to just forget about the whole trial and the circumstances around it. That was poorly done, and it doesn't seem like the writers realize it enough to turn it into something good.

Episode 11

-How is it that Floe always gets turned down? She's the cutest member of the cast.

-Not as if the Simoun looked all that cool to begin with.

-I guess that Floe doesn't always get turned down.

-"I'll protect you." And how exactly do you plan to accomplish that? Simoun aren't exactly precise weapons, and sibyllae fail as ground soldiers. Well, I guess that Simoun do have guns...

-Stop acting like a little bitch, Mastif. Towns can be rebuilt. Floe and the other sibyllae just saved your ass.

Episode 12

-But that's not as hot as Alti and Floe kissing. >_> And Paraietta and Kaimu are amongst the more unlikable/boring members of Chor Tempest, so its best if they get stuck together.

-Looks like Kaimu's always an unlikable bitch when she's not interacting with Paraietta.

-Yeah, you sibyllae typically fail pretty hard at ground combat. Its probably best if you don't get out and look around an enemy ship.

-Somehow, Aearu seems like the better choice to get out and look around an enemy ship than Naviril.

-So... you hate Alti because you made her sex you and then blacked out the fact that it was you that did it?

-Is Kaimu going to make up with Alti and stop being an unlikable bitch now?

Episode 13

-"Hey, let's do the technique that killed your old partner lol" "O_O D: D: D: D:" "Oh, right, you and your old partner weren't good enough to do it." "D: D: D: D:" "lolwut"

-Floe fails at explaining what the problem is.

-Aearu doesn't even know what romance is?

-"*curls up into a ball* "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" No, Neviril isn't being overdramatic about this at all.

-Oh boy, she even lost consciousness.

So far, I have kind of a mixed opinion of this show... on the one hand, I like Aearu, Floe, Mamiina, and Morinas, and most of the others are alright, but on the other hand, Neviril, Kaimu, and Paraietta piss me off, and the writing gets on my nerves sometimes.

Edit:

http://character.biglobe.ne.jp/speci...oun/ninki.html

*sigh*

Why did I know that Paraietta was going to be popular and Floe was going to be towards the bottom of the poll? Way to put 2 out of the 3 characters that piss me off in the top 5.

At least they got putting Aearu in first and Kaimu in last right. (well, maybe I'd put Paraietta a little lower than Kaimu... Kaimu's had a couple of scenes where she's hinted at being likable, where as Paraietta's been a constant bore/agitation)

(of course, I'm only half way through, and Simoun likes to make its characters grow somewhat, but I just can't see Paraietta AKA Naviril's bitch ever becoming interesting or likable; at least Kaimu has potential to become likable if she starts acting how she does when she's bonding with Paraietta around the others instead of being a jerk)

Last edited by Bloodseeker; 2008-06-13 at 07:43.
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Old 2008-06-13, 21:35   Link #2838
darthfury78
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Glad to see that the Simoun trend is still going strong after I had stopped posting last December. Keep up the good posts!!!!
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Old 2008-06-23, 00:38   Link #2839
Kaoru Chujo
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Oh, man, it's exciting to return to this thread after a long absence and see the rip-roaring discussion continuing, with many new names involved. I won't really join the discussion, because I think the million words I wrote when the show was airing two years ago exhausted my desire to talk about it, rather than just rewatch episodes now and then. It's still my #1 anime all-time.

I'm here to try to tempt people who like this show into trying an episode or two of the current show The Daughter of Twenty-Faces (aka, Nijuumensou no Musume; and Chiko, Heiress of the Phantom Thief). It's not yuri, although there are some moments in ep10 that could be misinterpreted that way. But it's a show with outstanding voice-acting, great relationships and character development, and an unusual story. I can't figure out how to describe the story without spoiling some powerful stuff in episode one, but you can find blog entries via Anime Nano, if you want.

The reason it reminds me of Simoun is that it's a show I love and admire for its subtlety and freshness but that is getting very little attention either in Japan or abroad. It reminds me of when we decided in frustration that Simoun had to be subbed and started doing it ourselves. At least Live-eviL and sudo are already subbing Daughter of Twenty-Faces.

I'm hoping that since I love it and loved Simoun, some others who like Simoun may find it interesting. It stars Hirano Aya, who is at her absolute best in it, far better than as Haruhi or Konata. More like her work as Layla in NANA. Intelligence, taste, and emotion. And the old pros that surround her are good, too: Uchida Yuya, Touma Yumi, Arai Satomi, Satou Rina and others.

By the way, I will say a couple of things about the discussion. Although there are many things in Bloodseeker's interesting posts that I don't feel the same way about, it's refreshing to find someone else who likes Furoe, who got so little love when the show was on. Her VA, Aizawa Michiru, who was apparently only 13 when she did Furoe, has now shown up in the new OVA series Amuri in Star Ocean, which features 3DCG character design and a bizarre "story" involving lolis in space. And I don't mean spaceships, I mean hard vacuum. Makino Yui and Saitou Momoko are the other two stars.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2008-06-23 at 00:54.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:05   Link #2840
Fweakin
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Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
By the way, I will say a couple of things about the discussion. Although there are many things in Bloodseeker's interesting posts that I don't feel the same way about, it's refreshing to find someone else who likes Furoe, who got so little love when the show was on.
I think the problem with Floe initially was her......more unusual voice. I remember hearing her character speak and thinking "What the hell was that?". I think it was more the inflection with her speech, curt and clipped in odd parts. It's something that I found to be endearing after a while (I think around ep 10 or so).

She ended up being one of my favourites by the end, I think partly because she was so impulsive and reactive to situations. That and she was a bit of a contradiction - part old soul, part immature snot. And I liked her banter with Aaeru and Alti - it was fun.

If I had to rank favourite characters I'd go:
1/ Yun
2/ Aaeru
3/ Morinas
4/ Neveril
5/ Floe
6/ Alti
7/ Waporif

then all other characters sitting on the same level

followed by Kaimu and Parietta way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the bottom. They deserve one another. If they were paired more frequently, that would have meant less screen time wasted with one or the other on the screen. ::Sigh:: My dislike for the two is quite immense.
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