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Old 2008-04-23, 10:48   Link #141
KrimzonStriker
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The Emperor's a jerk as far as I'm concerned, all he does is repeat the cycle and how is that supposed to enable our evolution exactly? Complacency and decadence are very much still a part of Britannia despite his heralding of competition. While what he says is true at the basest of levels, it has been in no way the actual answer to actually evolving, for how is repeating the same thing an act of evolution? A contradiction if there ever was one. It is when we overcome our natural instincts that will prove we have indeed evolved, which is why I applaud Lelouch, and by association why I place more faith in Marianne and C.C to watch over him.
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Old 2008-04-23, 10:49   Link #142
Dann of Thursday
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Who knows what Marianne and C.C. want though? For all we know it could be something not much better than the Emperor's policy.
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Old 2008-04-23, 10:51   Link #143
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Meh, I'll leave that up to the plot to unfold it then, but if its just because they support Lelouch then I will give them a slight edge over Charles at the moment >_>
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Old 2008-04-29, 05:06   Link #144
Esper 28
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Well, I pretty much read through most of this entire thread and I have to say, there are some really remarkable ideas being thrown around and while I really want to address all of them, I don't want to go on and on. Not only that, but at this stage of the game, nobody in this thread is more right or wrong than another. Which is something I think we need to remember when discussing things like this.

First, I'd really like to address the remarks made concerning Norse mythology. Personally, I'm a huge, huge fan of Norse mythology and I've read quite a bit dealing with the Aesir and the Vanir. Honestly, guys, I can't see where there are any real Norse connections with the show, excluding the mention of Ragnarok. To be fair, it can't be overlooked the prevalence of Germanic oriented stuff. I mean, Schneider (Schneizer? How does he spell it?) sticks out in my mind as a huge flashing light. So, while I think, down the road, we could see more Norse/Germanic themes ushered in, I don't necessarily believe they'll have much to do with C.C. Then again, it could easily be argued that the carvings on the door of the ruins may have resembled Yggdrasil. However, at this point in time, I don't think that has much to do with C.C.

However, I personally am on the side of C.C. being a type of Goddess or, as nobody's suggested, a God in Goddess form. In other words, typically, the character she's based off of or personifies, would be a male, but in the anime, they made him into a female character for whatever reason. (To be honest, while reading, I briefly entertained the idea that C.C. was a female version of Loki, but eventually dismissed it.) I think she's embodies something with a touch of the divine for sure, but as to who or what, I don't know and nobody here could know. The argument made for Eris was a good one, however, I think I'm more inclined to fall in line with the Morrigan group. Perhaps the green hair has forced me to associate her with the Morrigan from the classic Darkstalkers video game, but from what I know of Morrigan in myth, which I'll admit isn't much, it would seem that C.C. would probably fit well with her description.

Though, if I were to really commit to any suggestion made in this thread, it would have to be, absolutely have to be, the connection with the Arthurian tradition. I read that a few of you were saying that the Arthurian tradition is applied solely to the machines of the series, but I disagree. I think, yes, the Knightmares are named after a knight, but that name also carries with it the characteristics of that character. For instance, Lancelot is notorious for acting first and not exactly having a strong head on his shoulders. Personally, I would make the argument that this description fits Suzaku quite well. Without going into a real in-depth look at the Lancelot/Gawain dynamic, it's clear that those names, while applied to the knightmares, has other meanings that do affect the characters.

That being said, I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I mean, here we have Lelouch in the knightmare called Gawain with a green haired sidekick at his side. If you haven't read the poem, you can quickly Wiki it and get a gist. I realize that the Green Knight in the poem is far from identical with that of C.C. in the anime, but I think the motifs are still there. I think C.C. is there to test Lelouch and that she is both his friend, as well as his enemy. I also feel that, like the Green Knight, C.C. has a touch of the mystical about her. I can't stress enough that I don't mean she is a literal copy of the Green Knight, but that she is doing for Lelouch what the Green Knight did for Gawain. I think that just by reading through the Wiki article, you can understand what I mean.

To summarize, I think C.C. is Lelouch's Green Knight and while I realize that doesn't give a real definitive answer as to what exactly C.C. is, I think it hints to what she could be and, ultimately, what role she will play in the finale of the series. And by extension of that, I strongly recommend we analyze the Arthurian tradition in order to discover the true meaning behind C.C. and her origins.

Sorry for such a long post...
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Old 2008-04-29, 06:13   Link #145
Dann of Thursday
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But the Arthurian references are just that, references. There hasn't been anything to suggest they are anything, but that. That could change, but they haven't given any reason for one to think so yet.

Of course, if the legends are any real indication then that just confirms she is going to die even more.

And if the Green Knight thing is true then she is really is just using Lelouch as a tool along with Marianne and will end up being the final antagonist.
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Old 2008-04-29, 06:57   Link #146
Esper 28
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After making my post earlier, I felt compelled to get my copy of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight out and basically just browse through it. I found some incredible similarities between C.C. and the Green Knight and I would like to share them with you guys now.

I'll quickly summarize the initial meeting of Gawain and the Green Knight to give an idea. Basically, Arthur and his crew is sitting around celebrating the New Year and the Green Knight walks in. He issues a challenge to Arthur saying that Arthur can get a free shot at him with his axe, which Arthur could then keep, and in a year and one day, Arthur would have to find the Green Knight and then the he, the Green Knight, would get a free shot on Arthur. Well, Gawain, proclaiming himself to be the weakest of the knights, asks to have the honors. Gawain gets up and chops off the emerald hued knight's head. Well, the Green Knight walks over, picks his head up, and just sorta leaves.

Okay, so that's like, the main idea. Doesn't sound very much like it has anything to do with C.C., right?

I think the one thing that sticks out the most is how when Lelouch first met C.C., she was killed and in turn, gave him the Geass. This is the same as Gawain killing the Green Knight and, in turn, receiving his axe.

Also, the Green Knight is obviously immortal and able to bounce back from just about any fatal blow. Similar to how C.C. is able to be shot, stabbed, or burned and she keeps on coming back. Obviously, this implies the mystical aspect of C.C. in the same way that the Green Knight has some sort of magic surrounding him.

I would like to quote a line from the poem, "Recount we are contract, ere you come further." In this part of the poem, Gawain is coming over to chop off the Green Knight's head, but before the Green Knight enters into a "contract" with Gawain, he wants to know his name. It goes without saying that part of C.C.'s character is the fact she repeatedly tells Lelouch that they have a contract.

Gawain knows nothing about the Green Knight, yet he still enters into a contract with him. Similar to how Lelouch enters into a contract with C.C. without really knowing the details, heck, without even knowing who, or what, she is. Again, the Green Knight has green skin...what is he?!

It's also worth mentioning in this encounter that Gawain calls himself "weak" and I thought that was a pretty clear parallel to Lelouch's situation where his father proclaims him to be weak. Could imply the father is Arthur? Just an added tidbit.

To do a little bit of fortune telling, I look to the end of the poem. After Gawain has had a huge adventure, and has faced many perils, finally, he finds the Green Knight. The Green Knight goes to chop off Gawain's head and Gawain flinches. The Green Knight tells him he reneged on the agreement 'cause he didn't flinch when he got his head hacked off. Then Gawain convinces him to do it again and this time, the Green Knight just sort of nicks Gawain's neck. Gawain spasms out and tells the Green Knight he has fulfilled his agreement. It is then explained, by the Green Knight, that he had orchestrated all of the perils that Gawain had gone through.

Perhaps this is going to be how C.C. handles Lelouch in the end of the series? Where it proves once and for all that she was simply manipulating him as a way to achieve her own means. C.C. strikes me as the manipulative type and I definitely think she's got her own agenda in mind.

Oh, and just to add fuel to the Goddess theory: Morgan le Fay made the Green Knight into the Green Knight and, well, she was basically behind the whole poem.

Please, take that as you will.
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Old 2008-04-29, 07:48   Link #147
Dann of Thursday
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Wow, that fits perfectly with C.C.. I guess that means she was the mastermind behind Marianne's "assasination" and pretty much every ad thing that has ever happened to Lelouch. Meaning she doesn't give a damn about Lelouch or anyone else and is only concerned with getting what she wants and is willing to manipulate anyone to do it. This could mean all those little scenes in season 1 where it looked like they were getting closer were just her manipulating him.

She'll probably try to kill Lelouch in the end if he fails the contract or more likely intends to not fufill becuase he learns how evil and selfish she truly is.

Good twist with making us think she actually had emotions and actually cared about anyone other tha herself. Marianne may also fill one of these roles as well and may have only had Lelouch so she could use him later to her own ends.

The Marianne thing was all some huge setup to get Lelouch started and they probably made sure Nunnally was there too so she could be injured. The Emperor may have had the body removed becasue he found out and wanted to stop their plan. Sending Lelouch and Nunnally away was probably to help them while seeming cruel. The Emperor and V.V. are actually trying to help Lelouch and the world while C.C. and Marianne are doing the opposite. Lelouch should have listened to Suzaku all along.
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Last edited by Dann of Thursday; 2008-04-29 at 09:29.
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Old 2008-04-29, 09:41   Link #148
KrimzonStriker
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Oh Lord it does not essentially mean anything, there are certainly parallels with Arthurian mythology but by no means is Code Geass defined by it to a literal tee that C.C orchestrated everything and what not or that she doesn't give a damn about Lelouch... Charles is certainly not King Arthur by any stretch even if he has his own version of the Round Table....>_>
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Old 2008-04-29, 16:44   Link #149
Esper 28
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Oh Lord it does not essentially mean anything, there are certainly parallels with Arthurian mythology but by no means is Code Geass defined by it to a literal tee that C.C orchestrated everything and what not or that she doesn't give a damn about Lelouch... Charles is certainly not King Arthur by any stretch even if he has his own version of the Round Table....>_>
You're right, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. However, I think the similarities between C.C. and the Green Knight are uncanny and deserve to be considered when analyzing the character. Inspiration for a character is by no means a ways of interpreting an entire character, it is simply a great way to get insight into what the character may be thinking or her motives for doing something.

I am, in no way, suggesting the C.C. has orchestrated everything. I think, personally, that she is more of an opportunist and is able to manipulate events. I think that while Lelouch thinks he's manipulating everyone else, he is, in fact, being manipulated. Think of it as a puppeteer manipulating a puppet which is also manipulating it's own puppet(s).

Also, considering C.C.'s age, wouldn't it be more practical to suggest that the first king of Britannia was Arthur? If that line of thinking is true, you could infer that, possibly, her goal is to dethrone Arthur's heir. This would mean that Charles can be whatever type of character he wants while still having ties to the Arthurian legends. And just because Lelouch is comparable to Gawain, doesn't mean he has to be the spitting image of the character.

Please, don't think that I'm saying C.C. has to share all the same qualities with the Green Knight or Morgan le Faye. I'm simply saying that the similarities are striking and, perhaps, could be an indication of the type of character C.C. is.
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Old 2008-04-29, 16:47   Link #150
Dann of Thursday
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Exactly, he is just a tool to her and nothing more. Something to be cast aside when he has fufilled his usefulness to her. She is just as bad as Charles seems to be if not worse.
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Old 2008-04-29, 17:08   Link #151
KrimzonStriker
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Oh it's not you I'm really talking too Esper, it's Dann and how how he seems to be interpreting everything to a depressed and bias literal Tee again!!
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Old 2008-04-29, 17:45   Link #152
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Exactly, he is just a tool to her and nothing more. Something to be cast aside when he has fufilled his usefulness to her. She is just as bad as Charles seems to be if not worse.
Don't say that as if it is fact. It's only a theory.
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Old 2008-04-29, 17:49   Link #153
Dann of Thursday
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Yeah, but there are plenty of signs given all the suspicion regarding Marianne and how C.C. generally seems to be.
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Old 2008-04-29, 17:54   Link #154
ashlay
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Yeah, but there are plenty of signs given all the suspicion regarding Marianne and how C.C. generally seems to be.
crying in front of him? making a reverse contract in 15? Being constantly badgered to look after Lulu by his mother? Kissing him on the lips instead of just touching his forehead or something?

Oh yeah, C.C. has absolutely no emotional attachment to Lelouch, none at all.
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Old 2008-04-29, 18:00   Link #155
Dann of Thursday
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The crying could even be a slight moment of weakness or good acting on her part. Reverse contract doesn't mean much other than that C.C. was able to get the situation to work to her advantage and draw Lelouch in further. Of course Marianne would badger her since Lelouch is needed to fufill the wish. Kissing him could just be further emotional manipulation on her part.

Any of those situations could be worked to show that she doesn't care.
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Old 2008-04-29, 18:01   Link #156
ashlay
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Any of those situations could be worked to show that she doesn't care.
exactly. could.

remember to use that word next time.
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Old 2008-04-29, 18:02   Link #157
KrimzonStriker
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Just give up it people, Dann's emo-ness on C.CXLelouch can be as wacky as my tirades that Nunnally is EEEVVVVIIILLLL!!!!
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Old 2008-04-29, 18:07   Link #158
Dann of Thursday
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exactly. could.

remember to use that word next time.
I don't think they would be so ambiguous if she actually did care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Just give up it people, Dann's emo-ness on C.CXLelouch can be as wacky as my tirades that Nunnally is EEEVVVVIIILLLL!!!!
You are usually joking to some degree while I am being serious. To a point.
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Old 2008-04-29, 18:14   Link #159
ashlay
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I don't think they would be so ambiguous if she actually did care.
then say that, don't state your opinion like its a fact.
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Old 2008-04-29, 18:35   Link #160
Dann of Thursday
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Fine, I'll use the word "if" and "could" more.
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