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Old 2008-05-03, 11:22   Link #24041
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True. Simply saying Mid is better at 'long range magic' is a bit bland.

Noted. And I may use this when I get to writing a more tactical fight with Tesla. Granted, since she is a Belkan knight (and an Ancient Belkan knight at that) she won't be using the exact same skills, but the basics of jamming shouldn't have been a stranger to Belka.
Spoiler for This turned out a fuck ton bigger then I expected:
Seriously this why you shouldn't get me started on this shit I'm liable to start out with a simple comment then ramble out a thousand words in 20 minutes. I didn’t start out intending to write beyond like the first paragraph and… well the result speaks for itself. It dosen't help that I'm very tired I ramble more when I'm tired and not nearly that well either so sorry if none of that made sense and it's full of typos.
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:31   Link #24042
Wild Goose
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at above

This is a bit too late in the day for me to be taking in tactics, but it does make sense as a whole.

Also, there's been something I've been thinking. If the TSAB is crap - alright, scratch that, we know they suck ass in tactics and strategy - but are still the dominant power, it would tend to suggest that the bulk of the magical world - where the TSAB is in control of - is worse off than them, since the TSAB is the top dog of the Nanoverse.

...either that or they got more guns than anyone else.

Actually as TK posits above it makes a crapload of sense. There probably ain't anyone who can outgun the TSAB in a straight up firepower battle, which is why Jail went the way he took; like how no nation on Earth can beat the US military in a conventional war, but 11 guys in planes caused 9/11.

Again, my offer to do grammatical touch-up remains open. Think of it as a punctuation/grammar makeover And yes, like Rose, I'm good with them.
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:38   Link #24043
Comartemis
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Quote:
Well fuck... this why you shouldn't get me started on this shit I'm liable to start out with a simple comment then ramble out a thousand words in 20 minutes.
Ah, but given the quality of your ramblings, we should do this more often, TK. There is yet more I can use here in my own work, though the fall of Belka has little do to with the fall of its' core magic system.

On a related note... my work on Rico and the backstory of the Belkan Empire has brought me, somewhat unexpectedly, to the creation of the Spiraleritter; the Helix Knights. Take a wild guess where they come from.

With Kamina, Kittan, and the rest of the Dai-Gurren Brigade being ported into Belkan history (and Rico being the last of their number), I'm wondering if there's a way to implement Spiral Energy without making it completely h4xx. My initial thought is that SE is what permits limit breaks like Vita's Zerstörungform (and how convenient that said limit break involves a drill....), a subtype of magical energy possessed by all living creatures but one that is excessively difficult to harness even under ideal conditions. Thoughts?
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Old 2008-05-03, 11:39   Link #24044
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
@TK: Am reading your 3000 word essay right now, and I'm finding it interesting reading but God the lack of punctuation and stuff argh....
Aren't you in china and isn't it like 1AM there? I'm not saying some of it isn't me, but if the above is true some of it could be you as well cause while I won't claim it's newspaper quality or something a quick glance has it looking reasonably well punctuated to me.

Quote:
...Tell ya what, how about I take it and clean it up a bit, make it easier to read? <.< Comma here, comma there, adjust spelling abit...
I didn't proof read it that throughly and like I said it's basiclly a published draft. Commas have always been a sticky thing with me IMO there's a fine line between comma use and comma abuse. I admit I often come out short of them. Probably becasue the "rules" for the things have so many fucking exceptions that even calling them rules is basically bullshit IMO.

Quote:
Also, nice profile on Rose *nodnod* And more delicious ideas *nodnod* But darn I'm not sure I could have an EW mage in the OFM... it'd attact too much attention.
Yeah the only problem with most jamming is that it's like covering the sounds of foot steps by yelling with a bullhorn. If the other guy expects your coming and you don't care it's great if you're trying to be covert it's much tricker to use. That said it's hardly impossible IMO although how it would be used on a covert mission would indeed be rather different then it's role in open aerial battle. (wide area barrage jamming probably out for instance.)

Quote:
Also: Rose is cute. And well-endowned.
Rose? Where are you getting that from? Well I posted a char name Rose like a month ago, but she's borderline Loli... Assuming you mean Rebbecca I acutally originally wanted her to have pink hair (I don't really know why honestly), but then I saw that pic and was like "fuck it that's her she has brown hair now." I personally think she's pretty average though in the pic she's kind of puffing her chest out which is making her look bigger IMO; although she's obviously not flat by any stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Ah, but given the quality of your ramblings, we should do this more often, TK. There is yet more I can use here in my own work, though the fall of Belka has little do to with the fall of its' core magic system.

On a related note... my work on Rico and the backstory of the Belkan Empire has brought me, somewhat unexpectedly, to the creation of the Spiraleritter; the Helix Knights. Take a wild guess where they come from.

With Kamina, Kittan, and the rest of the Dai-Gurren Brigade being ported into Belkan history (and Rico being the last of their number), I'm wondering if there's a way to implement Spiral Energy without making it completely h4xx. My initial thought is that SE is what permits limit breaks like Vita's Zerstörungform (and how convenient that said limit break involves a drill....), a subtype of magical energy possessed by all living creatures but one that is excessively difficult to harness even under ideal conditions. Thoughts?
*TK rubs his temples wearily*

Not the TTGL shit again… fuck it I’m too tired to get into it now, but suffice to say allot of this shit has been attempted to be ported before and frankly I never really liked any of it as it just dosen't fit for shit IMO.
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Old 2008-05-03, 12:25   Link #24045
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Ah, but given the quality of your ramblings, we should do this more often, TK. There is yet more I can use here in my own work, though the fall of Belka has little do to with the fall of its' core magic system.

On a related note... my work on Rico and the backstory of the Belkan Empire has brought me, somewhat unexpectedly, to the creation of the Spiraleritter; the Helix Knights. Take a wild guess where they come from.

With Kamina, Kittan, and the rest of the Dai-Gurren Brigade being ported into Belkan history (and Rico being the last of their number), I'm wondering if there's a way to implement Spiral Energy without making it completely h4xx. My initial thought is that SE is what permits limit breaks like Vita's Zerstörungform (and how convenient that said limit break involves a drill....), a subtype of magical energy possessed by all living creatures but one that is excessively difficult to harness even under ideal conditions. Thoughts?
....no. Just FUCKING NO.

*Enters AbareKiller Mode*

*Goose henshins into AbareKillerGoose*


Alright, first off. Giga Drill Breaker is already taken and in use. As I've stated, it's Franz's Ougi, his Limit Break, his most powerful spell, which has actually been written. The fact that he doesn't use it so much is a recognition of the fact that while it's an awesome Limit Break it's not really that practical.

Spiral Energy is, quite frankly, haxxed. And frankly, Franz should be pwning everyone - he's very much in the Gurren Lagann mold - but note that the Stoic Glen always pwns him. Ditto Stoic Chief.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Spiral Energy is otherwise known as the Linker Core. Frankly what's the point in Spiral Energy? There's the Linker Core. It works. At some point you have to stop inserting things for the sake of coolness and take a long hard look at things and see if they fit. Which is why there isn't any scenes of Ivanovich with a SPARTAN laser. Yet. So far. (Fuck, why does he need a SPARTAN laser when he has Harvest?)

And at this time of the night, I have no particular interest in trying to make it work. Talk to Keroko or someone else. I can tell you this straight up: don't expect dehaxxing work on Spiral Energy, because it doesn't fit into the Nanoverse.

...dear god I sound like ark. Oh well, we're both Chinese. Meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Aren't you in china and isn't it like 1AM there? I'm not saying some of it isn't me, but if the above is true some of it could be you as well cause while I won't claim it's newspaper quality or something a quick glance has it looking reasonably well punctuated to me.
It's 1 now, but I ain't in China - Kuala Lumpur. It's quite possibly the time, but I've been really tired lately. I'll sleep and reread this tomorrow. Probably it's both of us.

Quote:
I didn't proof read it that throughly and like I said it's basiclly a published draft. Commas have always been a sticky thing with me IMO there's a fine line between comma use and comma abuse. I admit I often come out short of them. Probably becasue the "rules" for the things have so many fucking exceptions that even calling them rules is basically bullshit IMO.
To be honest when using commas I tend to go with feel What I was thinking more is just some minor touchups: comma here, comma there, inserting a couple of words you missed, some missing letters, just trying to make it flow better (and to keep the feel of a TSAB officer writing a paper).

For some strange lulz reason I have an image of Cipher writing that essay.

Quote:
Yeah the only problem with most jamming is that it's like covering the sounds of foot steps by yelling with a bullhorn. If the other guy expects your coming and you don't care it's great if you're trying to be covert it's much tricker to use. That said it's hardly impossible IMO although how it would be used on a covert mission would indeed be rather different then it's role in open aerial battle. (wide area barrage jamming probably out for instance.)
Pretty much. I think jamming is certainly out but passive EW and scanning may show up; I'll discuss it with Kagerou. To be honest though I was more thinking that since your 3k word essay implies that the EW community is fairly small, thus anybody who goes to a small nameless low-reputation unit like Contractor Group O would lead to a few raised eyebrows on the level of "What the FUCK are you doing in a crappy outfit like that?" and might lead to snooping as to WTF is Contractor Group O, WTF is a crap outfit like it doing snapping up EW mages (well, maybe 1. Or 2), leading to a possible blown cover.

Ivanovich: "Who needs EW mages! We've got our own two eyes!"

Something I just thought about is that in their own way the OFM may be quite traditional and stubborn; many of their senior leadership had their baptisms of fire during the Erusian War... Ivanovich for instance went with unguided magical projectiles when he was putting together the concept for the OFM's mage sniper storage device rather than any guidance packages simply because that was how he shot as a sniper, using unguided rounds.

Quote:
Rose? Where are you getting that from? Well I posted a char name Rose like a month ago, but she's borderline Loli... Assuming you mean Rebbecca I acutally originally wanted her to have pink hair (I don't really know why honestly), but then I saw that pic and was like "fuck it that's her she has brown hair now." I personally think she's pretty average though in the pic she's kind of puffing her chest out which is making her look bigger IMO; although she's obviously not flat by any stretch.
Argh I meant Rebecca. -_- And brown hair can be cute And in a book I read, "How to Draw Manga", it stated that when drawing boobs, boobs tend to appear bigger when they're hanging down, so Rebecca's got 2 things going for her: gravity pulling them down and her puffing her chest out.... and I'll shut up now.

*me RUNS(

Quote:
*TK rubs his temples wearily*

Not the TTGL shit again… fuck it I’m too tired to get into it now, but suffice to say allot of this shit has been attempted to be ported before and frankly I never really liked any of it as it just dosen't fit for shit IMO.
To be fair, I think the idea of Spiral Energy in the Nanoverse has some merit. Then again, so did the idea of antitank suicide attack dogs used by the Soviets, and we all know how that turned out (the dogs blew up Soviet tanks, not german tanks, because that's what they were trained against).
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Old 2008-05-03, 12:33   Link #24046
Comartemis
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Fine, fine. Jesus, don't bite my freaking head off, Goose, it was just an idea.

Well it's a bit late to be abandoning this little sub-project now, so I'll post what I've got so far.

Spoiler for The Helix Knights:
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Old 2008-05-03, 12:37   Link #24047
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
at above

This is a bit too late in the day for me to be taking in tactics, but it does make sense as a whole.

Also, there's been something I've been thinking. If the TSAB is crap - alright, scratch that, we know they suck ass in tactics and strategy - but are still the dominant power, it would tend to suggest that the bulk of the magical world - where the TSAB is in control of - is worse off than them, since the TSAB is the top dog of the Nanoverse.
I still stand by my opinion that the TSAB is millitairy capable, its just that Seven Arcs wasn't. To the casual viewer there is nothing wrong with the tactics the TSAB used. heck, even I thought it was all okay (with the exeption of the 'no devices inside the building' rule) untill the millitairy maniacs started pointing out the flaws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Belkan or something like it probably came first given that swords and such were the first real weapons of war used by humans a style based on enhancing them likely originated and became dominant first.
Actually, Belkan has been stated to be a split-off of the Mid style, so Mid was first.

Imagine that. In an era where conventional weaponry was common usage, there actually were people that created a melee-centered magic style. and judging by how well known Belka is, and all the hubhub behind it, it was a pretty damn succesfull style too, lasting several centuries at the very least and even growing their own Empire. :3

This also means that Belka was initially pretty capable of kicking Mid's ass. And indeed, when looking at A's, the Belkan style is very capable of doing so. Ranged combat is only a relative thing when you have a style centered around physical enhancement. After all, speed is one of those enhancements. I imagine Belkan mages using the 'get close fast, slaughter the ranged expert when up close' aproach. Like how the best way to beat mages in an MMO is to get close. Once you get close, mages are generally toast unless they can get away.
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Old 2008-05-03, 12:40   Link #24048
Wild Goose
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Henshins into AbareKillerGoose:

Comar: Keep going and leave out all Spiral Energy references. It has promise.

As for biting your head off, you misunderstand. I don't want to bite it off. There's less fun to be had that way.

*cackles madly, and smirks the way AbareKiller smirks*

Keroko: I actually wilfully ignored all the flaws at first. Then I came to Nanoha OC and had to sigh and take note.

On Belkans and speed, if they're moving so fast they can take Mid mages off-guard, then normal people don't really have much of a chance. It's like, they're moving faster than you can realise or react to.

Also I just realised something: even if the mages or knights are still subsonic, or high subsonic, they could theoretically still dodge bullets. How?

Flashmove Sidestep. Or ducking behind cover - people have dodged enemy fire before - though admittedly more through luck...
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Old 2008-05-03, 12:59   Link #24049
Comartemis
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Quote:
Comar: Keep going and leave out all Spiral Energy references. It has promise.
Actually, that was just about all the information I'd thought to include. Am I missing something important?
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Old 2008-05-03, 13:00   Link #24050
FlameSparkZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Maybe I should poke around in some of the other forums for an OC-thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
By the way, how heavy a sleeper is Koji? I kinda need this for Uomo's introduction scenario (I'm planning for the two to have been roomies in the academy, Koji's acceptance of everyone makes him the perfect candidate for rooming with a trap).
Hmmm...let's see...it takes him a while to fall asleep when he goes to bed, and when he does go to sleep, he's partially conscious of his surroundings (fighter's instinct?)
But, if he's exhausted from a day of training, he'll just sleep like a log until the next day

Also, as portrayed in a previous chapter, he has trouble sleeping with someone in the same room...until he gets used to that person.
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Old 2008-05-03, 13:17   Link #24051
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by keroko View Post
Actually, Belkan has been stated to be a split-off of the Mid style, so Mid was first.
No it's not. The point keeps getting raised and forgotten. Mid and Belka styles were competitors, with each being used by nearly half of all mages once. Not that Belka was a Mid-derivative. That was a mistranslation.

Quote:
Once you get close, mages are generally toast unless they can get away.
The problem is getting close while tanking all the damage the ranged fighter is throwing at you without being able to hit back until you're within arms' reach of him. Even worse, while you're closing, he can choose to continue shooting or move back to keep the range open. And in the air, keeping out of the melee fighter's reach is even easier. There may be no cover in the skies, but there are no obstacles either.
Heck, in A's ep5, the Bureau's deployment was less than optimal. The best way to neutralize the Wolkies is to gang up on them. There's no way any of them can cope with two ranged fighters pouring the hurt on them while evading their attempts to close for the kill. Nanoha and Yuuno on Vita, Fate and Arf on Signum, half the extra mages to keep Zafira at bay, the other half to help Chrono find the remaining knight, Shamal.
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:03   Link #24052
Melodius Trueheart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post


The problem is getting close while tanking all the damage the ranged fighter is throwing at you without being able to hit back until you're within arms' reach of him.
And the problem with that is that there's no guarantee that the ranged fighter can actually hit the melee fighter, especially if the ranged fighter doesn't have any "quick-strike" spells. While a slower melee mage might have to tank hits, a faster one lops off the mages head before he/she can get off a spell.

And Yunno doesn't, as far as I know, have offense. At best he would be a distraction.

I've been sort of talking about something called the "Lords", I think they need an explanation.

Spoiler for The Lords:


Speaking of Lords, here is the second Bishop of The Remnant Empire of Belka, Alejandro De Sevilla

Spoiler for Alejandro De Sevilla:


Finally, a short note about the magic system they use

Spoiler for Remnant Belkan Magic:
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:11   Link #24053
Tempy
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Ahh I knew it was good to wait until the weekend. Much more active.

Alrighty folks. This here is the revised character.

Spoiler for Noland ver. Beta:

Just for kicks, here's the Spell List too

Spoiler for Spell List ver. Beta:

If everyone approves, this will be also be the official working version. ...Until next revision, at least. I hope it's acceptable; I'll make some fancy dedicated post thing for linkage and reference later.
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:14   Link #24054
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
Hmmm...let's see...it takes him a while to fall asleep when he goes to bed, and when he does go to sleep, he's partially conscious of his surroundings (fighter's instinct?)
But, if he's exhausted from a day of training, he'll just sleep like a log until the next day

Also, as portrayed in a previous chapter, he has trouble sleeping with someone in the same room...until he gets used to that person.
Hmm, not what I'd hoped for, but workable. I'll just have to write a training routine beforehand.

Actually... concidering they'd be slaved in Academy, this will work just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Keroko: I actually wilfully ignored all the flaws at first. Then I came to Nanoha OC and had to sigh and take note.
Feh, I still willfully ignore them. Heck, I still hardly notice them. If I want to know why the spread of forces in the last few episodes was so wrong, I'll have to dig through the millitairy thread, and I still don't understand what Hayate did wrong during the attack on the HQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
On Belkans and speed, if they're moving so fast they can take Mid mages off-guard, then normal people don't really have much of a chance. It's like, they're moving faster than you can realise or react to.
Plus, Belkans specialize in physical enhancement magic, which means that on average a Belkan mage is faster then a Mid mage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also I just realised something: even if the mages or knights are still subsonic, or high subsonic, they could theoretically still dodge bullets. How?

Flashmove Sidestep. Or ducking behind cover - people have dodged enemy fire before - though admittedly more through luck...
Screw the Flash Move, any far-off shot in the series has shown us on multiple occasions that even 'normal' speed in a mage battle is freakishly fast, so even hitting them is not going to be simple. Flash moves are just icing on the cake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
No it's not. The point keeps getting raised and forgotten. Mid and Belka styles were competitors, with each being used by nearly half of all mages once. Not that Belka was a Mid-derivative. That was a mistranslation.
Blergh, forgot that. So what is the real translation of that scene then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
The problem is getting close while tanking all the damage the ranged fighter is throwing at you without being able to hit back until you're within arms' reach of him. Even worse, while you're closing, he can choose to continue shooting or move back to keep the range open. And in the air, keeping out of the melee fighter's reach is even easier. There may be no cover in the skies, but there are no obstacles either.
Speaking in MMO terms to give an example, the worst fear of a mage is a Warrior's 'charge' abillity, which basically is a move that allows the warrior to nearly instantly close in on a mage. Belkan mages specialize in physical enhancement magic, so they would be able to outrun the average Mid mage. If a Mid mage chooses to run, then a Mid mage already puts himself in a dangerous spots, as most of his moves require him to stand still and shoot. If the Belkan mage then throws in speed boosting spells, the the situation really starts to turn against the Mid mage.

Of course, this is but one example, and obviously in favor of the Belkan mage. But it shows that the Mid style is not inherently superior just because it uses range, and it shows that range in a magic battle is only one advantage, and one that is counterable as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Heck, in A's ep5, the Bureau's deployment was less than optimal. The best way to neutralize the Wolkies is to gang up on them. There's no way any of them can cope with two ranged fighters pouring the hurt on them while evading their attempts to close for the kill. Nanoha and Yuuno on Vita, Fate and Arf on Signum, half the extra mages to keep Zafira at bay, the other half to help Chrono find the remaining knight, Shamal.
*scratches head* o-kay, and what are you trying to tell me with this? I mean, if two Belkan mages gang up on one Mid mage, then the Mid mage is screwed as well.
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:44   Link #24055
Sheba
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That Belkan vs Mid-Childa reminds me the long talks in Shoryuken.com and Dustloop.com about Keep-away vs Rushdown.
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:45   Link #24056
Keroko
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Lemme guess, the conclusion was that both methods are equally good, and its the better player that would win?
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Old 2008-05-03, 15:56   Link #24057
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Lemme guess, the conclusion was that both methods are equally good, and its the better player that would win?
It depends on the player's skill and game systems. Games like King of Fighters tends to favor rushdown and grapplers against zoners. Street Fighter games tend to favor footsies and zoning. Marvel vs Capcom push the emphasis on keep-away and zoning to its paroxysm.

But if I take a game system that would be the closest to how Nanoha would be, it should be Immaterial and Missing Power.

By the very nature of the game, characters like Patchouli seems to have a natural advantage because of their projectiles, but against Remilia who seems to lean more toward rushdown and melee, she'll lose on the long run. But in this game, tournaments got examples of characters usually bottom-tier coming in top, showing that it lies in the players' hands.
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Old 2008-05-03, 18:10   Link #24058
FlameSparkZ
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, not what I'd hoped for, but workable. I'll just have to write a training routine beforehand.

Actually... concidering they'd be slaved in Academy, this will work just fine.
Isn't that what happens in the Academy? Training and more training until they can't lift a single finger
Or maybe that's how Nanoha does it

*runs*
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Old 2008-05-03, 19:05   Link #24059
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keroko View Post
Blergh, forgot that. So what is the real translation of that scene then?
Something like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by selkirk View Post
TL: A long time ago, it was a magic system that, along with Mid style, divided magic influence between the two of them. (bleh, I can't tl today... sounds really weird)
Not "splitting off" from Mid-style, but each sharing a half of the total influence.
In essence, it rivaled Mid-style in popularity / number of users, not "split off from" Mid-style.
Quote:
I mean, if two Belkan mages gang up on one Mid mage, then the Mid mage is screwed as well.
But in that ep, the Bureau did have the Knights outnumbered. Yet, they wasted their numerical advantage.
I got real life mixed up in this. I shouldn't have. Magic bolts are significantly slower than bullets and everyone has shields to tank hits better. Those are the only things that give melee fighters a chance against ranged fighters.

Quote:
and I still don't understand what Hayate did wrong during the attack on the HQ.
She did nothing. Even if she gave no orders, trusting in her officers, she should have done something to stay in the loop, monitor the situation, be ready to step in if she's needed. And with the large number of drones flying around, her wide-area attacks would have been very helpful in clearing them. Instead, she's holed up in the conference room "briefing" people. Something that Carim could have done.

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2008-05-03 at 19:34.
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Old 2008-05-03, 23:00   Link #24060
Comartemis
He Who Smites Shippers
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Alright ladies and gents, here's the updated lineup of the Divine Phantasms. This is concurrent with my recent timelines, so barring any dramatic changes in my mood, this should be the final draft of the character lineup. Now for the characters themselves....

Spoiler for The Divine Phantasms:
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Kill the Darkfic.
Burn the Angst.
Purge the Bad End.
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