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Old 2008-04-30, 16:18   Link #41
SpaceDrake
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Another unit that had the fortune of being left out from the BTECH universe was the 'MONSTER' Desroid. Imagine if the MONSTER made it into BTECH, which ever faction to receive them would immediately become the most popular. Four rail guns are just too difficult to resist...
There's a lot of speculation that the Behemoth was based off of the concept of the Monster.
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Old 2008-04-30, 16:22   Link #42
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can anyone explain to me, how come this manage to get around the lawsuit?
They still use these 'unseen' mechs in back-stories. I guess as long as they do not produce any more 'unseen' models or have them used in the actual game, they won't be facing a lawsuit.

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Originally Posted by SpaceDrake View Post
There's a lot of speculation that the Behemoth was based off of the concept of the Monster.
Thats actually a lot more akin to the Zentraedi "Glaug" Officer's Battle Pod than the Monster. The Monster had different weapon specs.

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Old 2008-04-30, 16:30   Link #43
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Yeah, but as you must know the Glaug was stolen wholesale. The Behemoth is at the top end of the weight class, features railguns/gauss rifles, and the chassis does resemble the wider configuration of the Monster. It does seem like they were putting another Macross mech into the game without actually ripping another design off directly.
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Old 2008-04-30, 17:25   Link #44
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It does seem like they were putting another Macross mech into the game without actually ripping another design off directly.
Not surprised, they actually have a new Rifleman that looks strikingly similar, but not quite.

Nonetheless, the 'Behemoth' simply does not resemble a MONSTER imo. The cockpit, the legs, the weapon load-out, all too very 'Glaug' to me.

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Old 2008-04-30, 17:28   Link #45
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Although I am a bit unsure on its status within the Zentradi/Meltlandi equipment hierarchy. The Nousjadeul-Ger units were clearly meant to be a match (especially if you take DYRL into account), and the Meltlandi would not pilot anything BUT the Queadluun-Rau. Hundreds were shot down in the original TV series, as well as in DYRL.
I'm partly drawing my information from the listing in the Macross Mecha Manual, but it seems consistent with what we saw in the show itself. We never saw the Meltrandi fight all that much, but nothing precludes other units from using Reguld battlepods (and in fact, Laplamiz eventually does so herself), and the Queadluun-Raus manage to inflict a disproportionate amount of damage compared to other Zentradi units.

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Aside from Milia, there simply wasn't any notable Meltlandi aces until Chlore was introduced in Macross 7 (who, like Milia, doesn't seem to age). Milia was simply too good of a pilot, and managed to make the Queadluun-Rau to shine even brighter.
That's true, and I'm pretty sure that Milia's initial appearance played a big role towards how the Queadluun-Rau is perceived in general. Do keep in mind though that the Macross in general doesn't really do the "ace" thing - especially when it comes to larger-sized wars. There really hasn't been any notable Zentradi aces between SDF Macross and Macross 7 as well.



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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
you know, i never really understood the practice of this so called "unseen" i know they had to drop destroids designs due to being sued, but they did still used some of them due to this "unseen" practice.

can anyone explain to me, how come this manage to get around the lawsuit?
The lawsuit against FASA only covered the images of the Battlemechs, not the rest of their designs. So what FASA did was to withdraw the disputed images from any new publications, even though the old names may be constantly mentioned. They were perfectly in their rights to do so; and to release new designs based on the old statistics and names.

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There's a lot of speculation that the Behemoth was based off of the concept of the Monster.
I sort of doubt it. The Behemoth came out at a time when FASA was very different from the blase attitude that led to their use of the original designs. Moreover, it looked very different from the Monster.
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Old 2008-04-30, 23:04   Link #46
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Do keep in mind though that the Macross in general doesn't really do the "ace" thing - especially when it comes to larger-sized wars. There really hasn't been any notable Zentradi aces between SDF Macross and Macross 7 as well.
The more I watch Macross, the more I think about Gundam, and cannot help but to have this feeling of the latter simply abusing that entire 'Ace' concept. Not that Gundam battles are small (although they are significantly smaller than anything in Macross), but nothing decisive could ever be achieved unless they drop one or two of them 'aces' into the fray.

Way too much personal duels, and the amount of philosophical exchanges sometimes drive me nuts.

Macross is a huge contrast to Gundam's ace concept. While certain characters in Macross do play significant roles, their importance isn't overwhelming. Call it realism if you will, but I like it that way, heh.

- Tak (Share my happiness, for I just obtained http://valkyria.jp/)

Last edited by Tak; 2008-04-30 at 23:14.
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Old 2008-05-02, 02:21   Link #47
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Well, as of episode 5, we now have confirmation - the Vajra units' protection scheme doesn't seem to be any more exotic than a regular Valkyrie's energy-conversion armour. That's rather interesting, considering their apparently superior toughness, but perhaps they simply have better power generation capabilities which give the armour an extra boost...

The analysis also noted that they have such a small brain it might as well be nonexistent for the purposes of thinking and higher-level functions... which is again rather curious, since the attack force in the Deculture Edition was shown jamming the first wave of Ghosts. Was that a preprogrammed response (in which case, why did they only jam the Ghosts, while telemetry from the VF-171s remained unaffected?), or was there a C4ISTAR craft lurking around somewhere?
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Old 2008-05-02, 03:15   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Well, as of episode 5, we now have confirmation - the Vajra units' protection scheme doesn't seem to be any more exotic than a regular Valkyrie's energy-conversion armour. That's rather interesting, considering their apparently superior toughness, but perhaps they simply have better power generation capabilities which give the armour an extra boost...

The analysis also noted that they have such a small brain it might as well be nonexistent for the purposes of thinking and higher-level functions... which is again rather curious, since the attack force in the Deculture Edition was shown jamming the first wave of Ghosts. Was that a preprogrammed response (in which case, why did they only jam the Ghosts, while telemetry from the VF-171s remained unaffected?), or was there a C4ISTAR craft lurking around somewhere?
maybe it's instinctive? the situation was for a quick and stealthy attack, thus they sent of jamming signals.

its a biological weapon, right?

Proto-culture biotechnology was very advanced, it won't be impossible to imagine that these "warriors" have a set of pre-defined responses encoded in it's DNA, so that when it meets a certain situation, the most appropriate response will be activated.
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Old 2008-05-02, 08:37   Link #49
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maybe it's instinctive? the situation was for a quick and stealthy attack, thus they sent of jamming signals.
The thing is, though, jamming tends to work against stealth - you're signalling that something's out there, even though the recipients may not know exactly what it is.

Besides which, they only started jamming after they'd already raised the alarm by blowing the VF-171 picket ship away - after all, the jamming was targeted at the quick-response flight of Ghosts arriving to investigate the recon bird's disappearance. Neither did the jamming appear to continue after the Ghosts had been dispensed with.

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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
Proto-culture biotechnology was very advanced, it won't be impossible to imagine that these "warriors" have a set of pre-defined responses encoded in it's DNA, so that when it meets a certain situation, the most appropriate response will be activated.
Possible, but it's interesting that the Vajra appear to be able to distinguish Ghosts from Valkyries (since they jammed the Ghosts, yet the Valkyries had no trouble at all with their sensors, comms and telemetry) and select a highly effective ECM option on the fly, all apparently based on the preprogrammed responses of a unit with little or no capability for independent analysis.

Did the masterminds behind the Vajra encounter another UN Spacy force somewhere, perhaps, and obtain some equipment samples to study? Or might there be a command ship hanging back out of sight to coordinate and direct the action?
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Old 2008-05-02, 08:44   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Did the masterminds behind the Vajra encounter another UN Spacy force somewhere, perhaps, and obtain some equipment samples for analysis?


Megaroad 01, First colony fleet.

Maiden flight: 2012

Commander of the UN Spacy Escort: Ichijyo Hayase Misa

Last contact: 2015-2016 (Missing)

Last Location: Near the Galactic Centre

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Old 2008-05-02, 10:01   Link #51
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Well, yes, but I was thinking of something a bit more recent. A forty-year-old example of a Ghost really shouldn't be enough to devise a preprogrammed ECM mode capable of completely disabling the latest models (unless, of course, somebody went and made Microsoft the UN Spacy's prime software contractor).

Of course, the Vajra could be simply using sheer brute-force white noise on the command frequencies, but if they have that kind of power output then why aren't they simply blanking out the sensors and comms on all the Valkyries too? Take away their missiles and computer-controlled gunsights, and those VF-171s suddenly aren't even worth stopping to deal with - just ignore them and blow past toward the capital ships. SMS's VF-25s would be more of a threat, but even their effectiveness would be reduced, and saturating the fleet's inner defences would be much easier than it actually turned out.
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Old 2008-05-02, 12:06   Link #52
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Given that the Vajra are biological weapons of mass destruction it is not surprising if it's lifeforce is increased by sound energy. (Macross 7)

It is intriging that the ones controling them may be themselves Anima Spiritia users.
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Old 2008-05-02, 12:48   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Well, yes, but I was thinking of something a bit more recent. A forty-year-old example of a Ghost really shouldn't be enough to devise a preprogrammed ECM mode capable of completely disabling the latest models (unless, of course, somebody went and made Microsoft the UN Spacy's prime software contractor).

Of course, the Vajra could be simply using sheer brute-force white noise on the command frequencies, but if they have that kind of power output then why aren't they simply blanking out the sensors and comms on all the Valkyries too? Take away their missiles and computer-controlled gunsights, and those VF-171s suddenly aren't even worth stopping to deal with - just ignore them and blow past toward the capital ships. SMS's VF-25s would be more of a threat, but even their effectiveness would be reduced, and saturating the fleet's inner defences would be much easier than it actually turned out.
well if you want something recent, you could say they learnt it from the 117th (research) fleet that they wiped out 11yrs ago

after all, all fleets have some form of UN Spacy escort, as evidence of Ozma present at the scene.

But i personally think it's a brute force method as well as a combination of at leased a rudimentary knowledge of UN Federation communication technology.

You notice in the first episode, that the Vf-25 and the 117th comms were affected as well, they had static and video-link degrading.

Obviously the manned fighters have better EM protection then robots, due to the fact that you only need to shield vital system and not the entire system including the piloting A.I. itself.
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Old 2008-05-04, 02:20   Link #54
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well if you want something recent, you could say they learnt it from the 117th (research) fleet that they wiped out 11yrs ago
That's a great point - the Ghost X-9 would have had 8 years to go into full production by then, so the research fleet could very well have had some of them.

The events of the deculture episode would make a lot of sense if the Vajra had discovered some weakness in the command protocols or AI; first jam the link back to the mothership, then broadcast your own attack transmission that screws up the Ghosts completely.

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You notice in the first episode, that the Vf-25 and the 117th comms were affected as well, they had static and video-link degrading.
Yes, but I'm not convinced that was any worse than what would normally be expected under combat conditions.

More importantly, we could clearly see the effects of the jamming on the flagship's tactical display; the areas of effect popped up as marked spheres, and the Ghosts' telemetry cut off as soon as they entered those zones. By contrast, when the VF-171s engaged the Vajra the tactical display remained perfectly clear, and the Valkyries' telemetry data was completely uninterrupted up until the point where they were shot down.

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Obviously the manned fighters have better EM protection then robots, due to the fact that you only need to shield vital system and not the entire system including the piloting A.I. itself.
Even if that's the case, EM hardening counters EMP attacks, not jamming.

Moreover, I'm not sure that the difference is that significant. The Valkyries are still dependent on electronics for everything from engine management to cockpit instrumentation and flight control. The AI is just one more black box to shield.

And even if the AI is extremely delicate and difficult to harden, the first things to be fried in an EMP attack against either a Valkyrie or Ghost are still likely to be the sensors, because they have to be both exposed and sensitive in order to do their jobs. A blinded Ghost is a kill, of course, but even on a Valkyrie it's a mission-kill; the pilot can still fly by looking out the window, but combat effectiveness will drop to nearly zero.
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Old 2008-05-04, 10:30   Link #55
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I'm thinking the ghost that were jammed in the beginning didn't have the advanced AI like the Ghost X-9. After the Sharon Apple incident there may have been a huge back lash against AI and having people and technology combine. Hence why artificial "enhancement" is illegal in some places.

The unmaned ghost in the beginning could have just been remotely controlled from the fleet. The jamming would be effective enough for the Ghost to lose their control signals and end up drifting like they did. Also we do know from the decultured special ep 1 the VF 171 was able to increase their EM protection.

Also from the preview at the end of ep 5, it appears the Macross Galaxy has different Valkyries. The main body and fixed wing looks very much like th VF-11. Though it seems it has a modified super pack to accommodate the fold booster

Last edited by squaresphere; 2008-05-04 at 10:41.
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Old 2008-05-04, 23:29   Link #56
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post

Also from the preview at the end of ep 5, it appears the Macross Galaxy has different Valkyries. The main body and fixed wing looks very much like th VF-11. Though it seems it has a modified super pack to accommodate the fold booster

Its looks like a successor to the VF-4 lightening III, well i hope it is.

Because if it IS a VF-4, then Galaxy's equipment a REALLY outdated, as they supposed to be phase out for the VF-11 thunderbolts (seen in Macross 7) that is now seems to be phase out with VF-171.


edit: yeah. i'm right, it's a successor of some sort.

It doesn't have the extra boosters on top of the wings, but it still has the legs folded under the wing.












It was first seen in flashback.


It's nice to see it animated again.

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Old 2008-05-04, 23:42   Link #57
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Its looks like a successor to the VF-4 lightening III, well i hope it is.
I went back and watched Episode 5 again, freezing the frame as the mysterious unit in question appeared. Upon closer inspection, it does not even look like its a variable unit, nor is it armed, at all.

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Old 2008-05-04, 23:54   Link #58
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I went back and watched Episode 5 again, freezing the frame as the mysterious unit in question appeared. Upon closer inspection, it does not even look like its a variable unit, nor is it armed, at all.

- Tak
A plane in Macross Universe that's just a.....plane?

It doesn't transform? just....flies?


HERESY!


*burn Tak with marshmellows*

Umpossible.

I won't believe a word of it.

beside i too freeze framed it and when you look at the back of the plane where the thrusters are, they look similar to the Vf-4.

So it doesn't have the typical "feet" the vectoring fins, but I have yet to see a plane that is just a plane!

*ignores the passenger plane from the beginning of Decultured ep1*

It's commercial! It's not military!

*ignores the Ghost Fighters*

A.I fighters not included either!


Stop analysing me!
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Old 2008-05-05, 00:17   Link #59
Tak
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post

but I have yet to see a plane that is just a plane!

*ignores the passenger plane from the beginning of Decultured ep1*

It's commercial! It's not military!

*ignores the Ghost Fighters*

A.I fighters not included either!


Stop analysing me!
Hmm, adding salt to injury, we have...

The SF-3A Lancer II in the original MACROSS
The SB-10/10 Starwing in MACROSS PLUS
The Drone units in MACROSS PLUS

and never mind the actual F-14s and Mig-29s in Macross Zero, eh?



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Old 2008-05-05, 14:03   Link #60
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Well just to throw more petrol on the flames of debate i present to you....

A picture that suspiciously looks similar to the ship from M-Galaxy.

It's a Vf-4, but is different from a Lightening III version.

notice the lack of extra thrust on the wings.


the second picture below it, shows the Vf-4 with a fast pack.

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