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Old 2008-05-05, 14:57   Link #701
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Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-05-05, 15:16   Link #702
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Spoiler:
Spoiler for Gendou's motives:
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Old 2008-05-05, 15:29   Link #703
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Old 2008-05-06, 01:13   Link #704
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I'd just like to add that I think Gendo Ikari was a serious D-Bag and so too were the the old SEELE men. I probably didnt have to point that out but I just felt like saying it...

Its a shame Shinji was only 14, because if he were a couple of years older and with all those rising testosterones...Im pretty sure he would have swung at his old man in no time. Gendo deserves it. I hated when Shinj had to come back under his command...if it wasnt for the world, Shinji would have told him to F' off ages ago!
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Old 2008-05-06, 01:23   Link #705
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Its a shame Shinji was only 14, because if he were a couple of years older and with all those rising testosterones...Im pretty sure he would have swung at his old man in no time. Gendo deserves it. I hated when Shinj had to come back under his command...if it wasnt for the world, Shinji would have told him to F' off ages ago!
Well, I believe you're what you're seeing here has to do with the context of the Japanese society. The contrast within your own desires and the pressures society puts on your shoulder is one of the key Japanese stigmas on which an analysis of this series (and of most of the Japanese cultural production) has to be based on.
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Old 2008-05-06, 06:48   Link #706
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Its a shame Shinji was only 14, because if he were a couple of years older and with all those rising testosterones...Im pretty sure he would have swung at his old man in no time. Gendo deserves it. I hated when Shinj had to come back under his command...if it wasnt for the world, Shinji would have told him to F' off ages ago!
In the manga he almost did that (after he got imprisoned for trying to trash NERV with Unit 01 - shortly after the Touji debacle) - had it not been for Kaji Ryoji's intervention, Shinji's fist would have definitely connected with his father's face. But let's also amend this by remarking that Sadamoto's version of Shinji is drier and more sullen than its TV counterpart, so it comes off as no surprise that he did snap, whereas in the TV he was more...amorphous.
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Old 2008-05-06, 08:38   Link #707
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Gendo doesn't deserve a fist, he needs a swift palm stift to the chin.BAMM!

Out like a light, hope he bit his tongue as well.

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Old 2008-05-06, 10:16   Link #708
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Objectively, Gendo Ikari was the one character who probably helped save the ENTIRE humanity in the story. His coldness and crass attitude aside, that is. Actually that's one of the major things I dislike about the story. That the more crass you get, the better results you get? I can't agree with that kind of dynamic personally.
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Old 2008-05-06, 10:58   Link #709
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Objectively, Gendo Ikari was the one character who probably helped save the ENTIRE humanity in the story.
Hmm? How come? It's true that he generated the Shinji that finally makes the "right" choice, but I believe that choice can be attributed to Shinji and Shinji alone. Remember that, in the end, nothing went as he initially planned it.

If we get to the bottom of it, yes, he created the scenario in which Shinji makes the right choice, but I don't believe that was his intention in the first place. He was so fixated upon Yui that I don't even believe he was thinking about it.

PS: BTW, I'm one of those people that believe that Shinji didn't necessarily make the "right" choice
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Old 2008-05-06, 11:31   Link #710
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Gendo may not have personally put too much faith in to Shinji, but at least Seele foresaw it. I don't think Gendo is as naive as the way he led Shinji to believe. Also, it strikes me as too convenient that his backup plain in Rei basically was the key to the salvation of mankind. Gendo must have foreseen what was going to happen to a degree even with his infatuation with Yui.

It still doesn't make me like Gendo any more as a person, but I still can't find any other single character who made it more possible than Gendo. Shinji was basically just along for the ride. Ever since episode 1.

And as for the whole 'right choice' thing, I don't think there was much of a choice to begin with. Either ends up with humanity progressing in some forms, sacrificing their current forms in a major, cataclysmic way. Though I do think the illusion of choice was there.
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Old 2008-05-06, 12:15   Link #711
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Gendo may not have personally put too much faith in to Shinji, but at least Seele foresaw it. I don't think Gendo is as naive as the way he led Shinji to believe. Also, it strikes me as too convenient that his backup plain in Rei basically was the key to the salvation of mankind. Gendo must have foreseen what was going to happen to a degree even with his infatuation with Yui.
See, I don't believe that such a person as Gendou, as we see him throughout the whole series, could really care about the salvation of mankind. Remember that his final plan is ultimately ruined by Rei, who develops an affection for Shinji he never thought possible. He manages to see Yui in the end, but the final form of the Eva 01 devouring him is his atonement for the wrongness he put Shinji through (and his ultimate personal redemption, as he willingly undertakes it).

Quote:
It still doesn't make me like Gendo any more as a person, but I still can't find any other single character who made it more possible than Gendo. Shinji was basically just along for the ride. Ever since episode 1.
I think that every character was "along for the ride". I do believe that is one of the main points of the series--as I said in a previous post, your inner desires versus what society expects of you. Every character finds a conflict like this in one way or the other--every character except Gendou, arguably enough. Though he still maintains the appearances and bows before Seele throughout the majority of the series.

Quote:
And as for the whole 'right choice' thing, I don't think there was much of a choice to begin with. Either ends up with humanity progressing in some forms, sacrificing their current forms in a major, cataclysmic way. Though I do think the illusion of choice was there.
Well, then the magic of the ending is lost in you. Yes, I'm also a firm believer on the inevitability of things and the illusion of free will, but I don't quite think that is the point EoE wanted to make. For once in the series, Shinji made the choice, his own selfish choice. It's the first time he considers what he really wants for himself when choosing his path. He could have chosen a "perfect" future, but he chose imperfection in order to retain his current humanity and the possibilities of the unpredictable. Whether you think this was inevitable or not I believe is not really important for the point Anno wanted to make.
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:04   Link #712
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Give Gendo a break, he is a normal father it's Shinji who has troubles and perceive him as a cruel and cold guy, he thinks he hates him but it' all the self centerd Shinjis imagination.
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:18   Link #713
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Give Gendo a break, he is a normal father it's Shinji who has troubles and perceive him as a cruel and cold guy, he thinks he hates him but it' all the self centerd Shinjis imagination.
Really? So being abandoned when he was nothing but a helpless kid is Shinji's fault? Never having any contact whatsoever for a bunch of years and then suddenly getting called just to get on the Eva 01 is also Shinji's fault?
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:25   Link #714
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Really? So being abandoned when he was nothing but a helpless kid is Shinji's fault? Never having any contact whatsoever for a bunch of years and then suddenly getting called just to get on the Eva 01 is also Shinji's fault?
I thought that in the end they would give a good explanation for all of that, but what we got? A sentence: "I did all of that because when I was near of my son I only hurt him." Seriously, WHAT THE HELL?
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:30   Link #715
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I thought that in the end they would give a good explanation for all of that, but what we got? A sentence: "I did all of that because when I was near of my son I only hurt him." Seriously, WHAT THE HELL?
Two words: AT Field.

PS: Forgot to add "Hedgehog's Dilemma".
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:48   Link #716
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Two words: AT Field.

PS: Forgot to add "Hedgehog's Dilemma".
So...? I don't know about you, I was expecting something more.
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:54   Link #717
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Gendo's the same as Shinji in that aspect so it served as a nice foil in the end. Makes sense to me actually.
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Old 2008-05-06, 13:55   Link #718
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So...? I don't know about you, I was expecting something more.
What more do you want?

AT fields are the barrier between human souls so they can never truly understand each other and will keep them separate.

Hedgehog's Dilemma is the idea that humans will consistently hurt each other when they try to get close to each other. However, under the right conditions/approach, they can come together and create something beautiful.

Gendo and Shinji just wasn't able to find a way that worked for both of them.
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Old 2008-05-06, 14:01   Link #719
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Yeah, it made sense and it is what Evangelion is all about. But, as I said, I was expecting something more, I don't know, maybe a twist of the sorts. That is just my opinion.
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Old 2008-05-06, 14:16   Link #720
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Well I guess the twist was Yui and Rei's decision to leave it up to Shinji.

Gendo and Shinji's relationship was just too damaged without some serious and continuous intervention by someone both cares about.
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