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Old 2008-05-06, 23:33   Link #461
nutype
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now that I thought about this....this new revelation that the organization creates youma makes for a disturbing loophole. Since the organization is clearly the biggest evil in the world of claymore, clare might just ditch her revenge plot and might even join up with priscilla or somekind of varation in order to beat the organization.

I'm uncertain as to where the story is heading now. I'm not sure whether we will ever get to see the 'outside' world or even if the story will progress that far. The story up until now was very simple and linear. All awakened being and the organization needed to be wiped off along with saving raki but now I'm wondering if the author will take the manga further and extend the revenge plot outside the AB experimental continent and into the heart of the mainlands. Up until now it was prascilla that clare wanted revenge on and now that she knows everything.....i mean EVERYTHING is the fault of the organization she really might just ditch Priscilla and go after the organization itself. I really do think this is the path Clare will take.

ONE MORE THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED: Assuming the organization is indeed making youma or maybe youmas are failed claymores......anyways my question is - why dont claymores like galatea know when youma are being made? shouldnt they be able to detect the presence of youma if these things are created at the organizations base? Im guessing the author probably wont touch up on this but it is an interesting question that needs to be addressed. How is it possible for the organization to get away with this with nobody being the wiser?
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Old 2008-05-07, 01:06   Link #462
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Wow, been a while.

Various motivations have had me catching up on the JP release of Claymore (up until last week I'd still only read the Viz releases), and it's some amazing revelations coming out.

What I find interesting and amusing is how well some things jive with speculations made a year ago (eg: World of Claymore thread), especially in regard to the production rate of Claymores.

Some thought Teresa's 77/182 number meant long generations and lots of candidates per generation. Instead it's pretty clear that it was the short generations and few candidates per generation that I expected (2.4 new Claymore per year on average).

The lab started 100 years ago. Teresa was generation 77, thus probably year 77. Tack on another 5 years til she met Clare, 10 years til Clare shows up in the manga, and the 7 year timeskip, and that puts us at year 99. The numbers can be tweaked a bit here and there and the "hundred years ago" comment still pretty much holds true.

I speculated on the size of the continent being the size of the United States, or possibly a good chunk of North America, due to the travel time within territories. It's obviously not nearly that large. A land mass of that size would be a prime target for resources for a land at war.

Something I'm sure has been mentioned at some point, but I can't actually recall at the moment, is that Japan has 47 prefectures - the same number as the number of Claymores on active duty. Total land area in Japan is around 375k square km. An island/island chain 1200 km x 300 km would be on the lower end of what I think would be an appropriate size for the area, yet at the same time small enough to not get too much attention from countries at war in a land the size of, say, Asia.

You could probably double or triple the size and it still wouldn't gain too much notice. Something the size of Australia would be 20 times the size of Japan and easily able to accomodate a large and diverse human culture as well as the climactic variances. The question is whether something that large would start to attract undue notice by the enemy states, something you wouldn't want in an experimental laboratory. At best, I think the known Claymore world/continent/island is around 5-10 times the size of Japan, and I'd be more inclined now to consider it 3-5 times the size of Japan.


@Awakened:

On the idea of Clare vs Miria, I think that's a false comparison. Clare undoubtedly has the greater physical potential, and it could very well be that she's reached a point now to be on par with Miria (in fact, I find it quite likely). However, what would determine the winner in a true contest between them (as opposed to just a raw sparring match) would be planning.

Clare has shown herself to be a good tactical thinker. Put in a situation she knew she couldn't win (the fight with Ophelia and the AB), she got the hell out of Dodge, and also came up with a moderately clever ploy to ditch Ophelia entirely.

Miria, on the other hand, is a strategic planner. Put in a situation she knew she couldn't win (far more hopeless than Clare's), she came up with a plan to save as many lives as she could while at the same time getting the Org off their tail. It also failed somewhat, but more due to unexpected interference (Rigaldo) than poor design or lack of execution (as in Clare's case).

Given a particular objective, I'd certainly place my money on Miria to be able to accomplish it if she is given enough time to research and plan. Thus Clare vs Miria becomes a bit like Superman vs Batman (though not as extreme). If you look only at raw power, Superman wins; however the reality is that more often than not Batman would win due to superior planning and strategy.

///

From older speculation threads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorine
another theory is that yoma are former male humans. Take note of what rubel said. "the north always needs new troops" Maybe this is in relation to a war being fought with another country over a mountain range or maybe it is in relation to a yoma breeding program in which men are infected with some sort of yoma'ness and become the normal gut eating yomas we have seen.
Can anyone remember where Rubel said that? I'm going to have to re-read the series to look for other hints that point at the recent revelations. Have to completely rebuild the world in my head, look for more things to speculate about


And regarding Miria dying: Now that the seed has been planted, I can't see it turning out any other way. Taking down the Org is Miria's goal, and she will do anything to accomplish that. It doesn't take a genius to know that it will be far from easy, with many of them put in life-threatening situations. Therefore the final battle is almost certainly going to involve Miria sacrificing herself to both save the team and destroy the Org.

Doing so also removes the "Seat of Infinite Wisdom" from the team. As it stands now, we can realisticly expect Miria to know a bit about pretty much everything. Destroying the Org (along with most of its archives) is most likely going to be the stepping stone for moving the team to a new continent (in order to gain the keys they need to ultimately defeat Priscilla), and with the physical power-ups they have received, their greatest weakness will be lack of information, planning, and leadership. If they can't depend on Miria to take care of that for them, it will require them to grow up and branch out a bit more as individuals.

(Can just see it now: "Undercover" Helen with trench coat and shades, plus her partner "Ice" Deneve, trying to dig for information in a small-town bar...)
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Old 2008-05-07, 01:53   Link #463
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Originally Posted by Ryuken View Post
Me also think definitely not the end of power ups.

PS - A Yoki manipulating power up would be nice.
Even better, should be powerful enough to freeze an AO dead in its tracks.
Now that would be something wouldn't it.
i agree. If clare will have to kill Priscilla she needs more power. If all they can do when they had an encounter with riful is escape. hehe.. then they still have a lot more to work on.

yoki manipulating? if i remember correctly she can do that ever since the fight with duph. remember, she pulled jean back. but she admitted it was not possible or it would be hard on her as it strains her mind too much. Maybe now she trained to do it.

If you think of it. Maybe if clare heads back to the organization, she will stand as the number 3 i guess.. whoah when all the renegades go back to the organization. I wonder what would be the number of the current memebers with Clare, Miria, helen, deneve, yuma, cynthia, tabitha, galatea, raphaela, and irene perhaps. Then Clarice would be number 57.. lol...

Who's you're favorite Claymore? AO?
Mine - Clare and Riful hahah.. if they team up they would make a big prob to the organization.
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Old 2008-05-07, 01:54   Link #464
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Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post
Can anyone remember where Rubel said that? I'm going to have to re-read the series to look for other hints that point at the recent revelations. Have to completely rebuild the world in my head, look for more things to speculate about
Welcome to the up-to-date thread. Nice post.
Rubul said it right before Pieta - when Clare and Jean meet Raphaela.

Quote:
And regarding Miria dying: Now that the seed has been planted, I can't see it turning out any other way. Taking down the Org is Miria's goal, and she will do anything to accomplish that. It doesn't take a genius to know that it will be far from easy, with many of them put in life-threatening situations. Therefore the final battle is almost certainly going to involve Miria sacrificing herself to both save the team and destroy the Org.
If Luciella is dead, then I'm almost positive that the next to die will be Raphaela. Just a feeling...

Quote:
Doing so also removes the "Seat of Infinite Wisdom" from the team. As it stands now, we can realisticly expect Miria to know a bit about pretty much everything. Destroying the Org (along with most of its archives) is most likely going to be the stepping stone for moving the team to a new continent (in order to gain the keys they need to ultimately defeat Priscilla), and with the physical power-ups they have received, their greatest weakness will be lack of information, planning, and leadership. If they can't depend on Miria to take care of that for them, it will require them to grow up and branch out a bit more as individuals.
I'm no longer convinced that Pricilla is going to be a final boss. I think somewhere along the way, Clare's motives for revenge will fizzle out. Remeber - Raki and Pricilla have been... cohabitating... for a while now. I don't know if Clare can just show up out of nowhere and kill Raki's special friend.

Likewise, I'm not convinced that the story will move onto the continent - there is no reason to. It's not like there is any indication of any of the characters WANTING to leave for the continent yet. They're only care is to what's going on on the island.

The only real way I think we'll see the main continent after the main story of Claymore is done, and Yagi wants to create a Claymore 2, where some/all of the survivors of Claymore willlingly segregate themselves to the mainland after dispatching all youma/ABs on the island. We'll have to see how long Yagi enjoys writing about the Claymore universe to see I guess.
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Old 2008-05-07, 01:59   Link #465
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ONE MORE THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED: Assuming the organization is indeed making youma or maybe youmas are failed claymores......anyways my question is - why dont claymores like galatea know when youma are being made? shouldnt they be able to detect the presence of youma if these things are created at the organizations base? Im guessing the author probably wont touch up on this but it is an interesting question that needs to be addressed. How is it possible for the organization to get away with this with nobody being the wiser?
Maybe the creation facility is a little off premises because of that.
Hey - I got an idea!
What if it's in the forest? You know - the forest that Raphaela found Teresa wandering around in. It's supposedly "full of youma" (according to Raphaela who probably never explored it quite as thuroughly as Teresa did). Would also explain why she knew about the organization creating youma.
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Old 2008-05-07, 02:51   Link #466
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Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post


Can anyone remember where Rubel said that? I'm going to have to re-read the series to look for other hints that point at the recent revelations. Have to completely rebuild the world in my head, look for more things to speculate about
I think it refers to when Rubel explained Raki being taken to the North by slave traders. I don't remember a mention of "troops".
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Old 2008-05-07, 03:18   Link #467
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@ Kinematics: Fun post. For the Clare vs. Miria thing I think Miria might win if she controlled the situation with her research, but if something goes haywire she seems shuts down. Miria did very well in the battle against the 3 AB's when her planning worked, but against the 6 armed AB or against Rigardo she was the last one to go in as if she were struggling to figure out what to do next or something. Clare thinking quickly on her feet is one of her major advantages. I loved the batman vs superman comparison. I love it when batman beats up superman (dark knight style baby).

@Cyclone: does claymore have to spread into the outer world? Or will the outer world come to them? Now that we have seen these dragon descendants someone is going to have to meet them at some point. Yagi went to the work for character design which means they will show up (just like I think we will see Clare's awakened form... There are some elements we have already been exposed too but I'll post that somewhere else). The organization is definitively evil at this point but they are only the research and development branch of a larger group it seems. Without knowing more about their structure of the true organization who is to stop them from doing it again?

I do not think we know the full reasons behind the organization. No one in Claymore has remained a solid evil character. Even Ophelia got a little tiny bit of redemption as she cheered Clare on as she killed her for being a monster. Priscilla, the woman I hated the most for taking Teresa and slaughtering her own team seems like a hapless school girl with an epic hunger she cannot control now. I think the organization is going to be far more complex and might even have some good reasons for doing what they are doing.

Also now that the organization has achieved what they wanted with Alicia and Beth what is to stop them from making more of them? Why make 1 weapon when you can make two?

As for Raphaela, I really want to see her again. She has so much potential to the story. Awakening is huge in this world and Raphaela is an unaffiliated agent who knows how to soul link; something the organization has been working on for years. Not just that but she is a #1 level character who has never swung her sword that we have seen. She has to have something with a soul link and she has to fight before she dies. That is what I am hoping to see.

Something I just thought off: Nothing in the claymores world can dent their swords that we have seen. Their symbols are engraved into the swords and that could not be done on the island. Even Claymores cannot damage other Claymores. The symbols were engraved before the organization gets the swords. A claymores symbol might have much more meaning in the future. We do not even know WHY claymores have symbols yet. It identifies them but it is not like they need an ID check much. What do the symbols actually mean to the experiment in awakened beings?
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Old 2008-05-07, 03:56   Link #468
ergon
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Maybe the creation facility is a little off premises because of that.
Hey - I got an idea!
What if it's in the forest? You know - the forest that Raphaela found Teresa wandering around in. It's supposedly "full of youma" (according to Raphaela who probably never explored it quite as thuroughly as Teresa did). Would also explain why she knew about the organization creating youma.
Thats an interesting thought.

I wonder how significant it is that Miria said they change humans into monsters, rather than mix humans with monsters. Could yoma be some sort of induced mutation? Maybe thats where the slave boys go. If thats the case maybe Riful has discovered a way to revert/advance the mutation, using yoki manipulation.

I still think a possible ending is the Island being forgotten by the mainland and purged of evil creatures. Ruled by the iron fist of Queen Miria
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Old 2008-05-07, 04:37   Link #469
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@Ergon: ooh, humans boys used to make youma. That is creepy. Fun idea. Youma have the ability to steal memories and the process does not seem to be as simple as just eating the people. Youma are very messy eaters and often seem to almost show off their handy work. No one even knew Zaki was gone so either the youma hid the body (in which case he probably should have hidden all the bodied he consumed which youma do not seem to do although Agatha seems to) or it has something to do with the process of stealing the memories.

Ergon, you will probably be better able to decipher the text the zaki youma tells Raki in scene 1. The part that I am unsure of is when the youma is saying he took zaki's mind and body whole on page 38. I know it says the youma explicitly ate the parents but I am unsure of the usage of itadaku. I have heard it used for getting things that one does not eat.

It is still very interesting to me that Claymores were not made to hunt youma; youma were made so that claymores could be created and eventually awaken. Awakening is not an accident. It is what the organization has wanted all along. It just came with some negative side effects.
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Old 2008-05-07, 05:31   Link #470
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Old 2008-05-07, 06:08   Link #471
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@ mods, sorry about that

I think "itadaku" literally means "to partake of" or sometimes "obtain". Its sometimes used in a mocking sort of way, like if you were to rob somebody while saying "I'll just help myself to this, mkay?"
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Old 2008-05-07, 06:49   Link #472
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I think "itadaku" literally means "to partake of" or sometimes "obtain". Its sometimes used in a mocking sort of way, like if you were to rob somebody while saying "I'll just help myself to this, mkay?"
As you can see, if you use a bit of common sense (for example, the post above) it is possible to discuss the meaning of a word or phrase.

There's a big difference between posting the translation of the complete (or partial) chapter contents and that of posting the translation of a word or phase.

Clearly to discuss the manga you may want to ask the meaning of something but that doesn't mean you have to link the scans or post the entire translated page.
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Old 2008-05-07, 07:55   Link #473
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@ergon: That is kind of what I figured the youma meant by it. I like the "I'll just take this, mkay" example . Maybe you get a different meaning from the first youma's discourse than I did but it seems that the youma did not just eat Zaki but stole his body and mind whole somehow. Not exactly sure the process or what happened but Zaki seemed very much alive even after the youma took him; his memories and behaviors were indistinguishable even to his brother. Zaki's tear ducts were still under Zaki's control or at least the control of his memories (is that any different?) even though he could not stop the youma from attacking his little brother. The idea that eating someones brain will give you their memories seems a bit strange to me for some reason so I am imagining something much more on the level of possession or parasitic control for youma to steal memories. Claymores and AB's have never shown any evidence of an ability to steal memories or transform into anyone but themselves from their awakened form although Claymores bodies do have the ability to morph quite a bit (like Clare's vocal chords).

If that is the case it leaves me with a lot of questions about youma and their relations to claymores especially in discovering that they are both projects from the organization. Why would youma be designed to steal memories perfectly? Seems like a great weapon right there if they were loyal at all. If youma can take someone like Zaki and turn them into a youma somehow or transfer bodies... well, there is a lot to be speculated about. For instance, couldn't youma/claymores be an immortality project as much as a weapons project? Claymores do not age and are much stronger and more resilient than any human. They heal crazy fast and need next to no food. Awakening is the main issue they have but if it were not for the whole hunger for human innards then really awakening would be awesome all around. With a claymores soul able to actually be held by another through the soul link I wonder just where the project's goals end.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:14   Link #474
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True, Riful probably has intended to do so this whole time, and could be why she wanted a strong yoki manipulator (or she might be able to do it herself). I agree with you.

But, if the Ghosts take out the Organization, could they somehow control Alicia + Beth themselves to wipe out all the yomas and ABs that are already out there? (Except for Priscilla. If Priscilla is going to die, it'll be by Clare's hands.)

That might solve the problem of dealing with all the existing yomas and ABs out there if the Organization is gone.

IMO riful needs as much yoki manips as she can get. Probably to do something with the soullink. But that does not mean that she is unable to do yoki manipulation on her own. She's perhaps even the best yoki manip of all AB's. But IMO she needs reinforcement to do what she wants to do. Perhaps she even needs several persons which have to do different yoki manip tricks and tasks at the same time or she needs the reinforcment to let them do something together, focussing all the power on one task, who knows at the moment...
IMO as long as clare doesn't reincarnate into theresa they will probably need riful to control the orgs weapon because riful has the large yoki resources of an abyssal one. But this is all pure speculation and we make the assumption that riful wants do do something with the soul link.


What i like on yagi is that he uses comon sense:
Examples:
1.Galatea had to be blind and without eyes - surprisingly at first, but absolutely logical because she had to hide her silver eyes
2.The claymores unbreakability is something we all thought it was simply because yagi was to lazy to take in account that swords can break but he planed that from the begining and if we think about how the org handelt things all the time it isn't that surprise that the island is only an laboratory for awakened beeings.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:18   Link #475
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Seems that the youma inputs their DNA into the host that they want (similar to a parasite/virus) and then that DNA quickly takes over since it's so similar. The Youma Strain must be very potent indeed.

The Strain that's given to the girls to make Claymores is much less potent than the Strain used to make youma. It alters their composition slightly (stronger, faster, flexible, healing, etc) but other than that, it doesn't do much to them unless we consider the psychological effects.

Youma would make terrific soldiers...if their opponents were just weak humans. But it seems that they are little less than fodder material, as are the Claymore rankings with anyone higher than 10.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:22   Link #476
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Maybe the creation facility is a little off premises because of that.
Hey - I got an idea!
What if it's in the forest? You know - the forest that Raphaela found Teresa wandering around in. It's supposedly "full of youma" (according to Raphaela who probably never explored it quite as thuroughly as Teresa did). Would also explain why she knew about the organization creating youma.
Well, depending on how exactly yomas are produced (or reproduced), it is very possible that yomas are not made in "creation facilities", but rather in their hives, or nests.

One such nest was the town where Noel, Sofia, Irene, and Priscilla congregated in. Noel or Sofia named it such. Massive amounts of yomas.

It used to be an ordinary town that was wiped out by yomas. It could have been a town that didn't pay the Organization, and the MiBs decided to send a force of yomas to take it out and the yomas stayed in the town.

Regardless of its origin, it's the single largest amount of yomas congregated in one place that we've seen anywhere in the whole story. The dead yomas in the alley with Priscilla may be the single largest amount of yomas shown in one panel shot.

With each yoma pretending to be a person living in the town, it is the perfect place for creating more yomas. How will others know? The town could be growing like an ordinary town, just with a different type of residents.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-05-07 at 08:34.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:29   Link #477
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Originally Posted by chibamonster
The idea that eating someones brain will give you their memories seems a bit strange to me
this would be interesting because clare gave rubel theresas head. Will she get theresas memorys? During thhe dream in which theresa was dancing with her claymore, i had the intention that she "showed" clare how to use the preemptive aura protection really good. Clare was totally knocked out and slept until miria awakened her. She layed in the mud and even the raintrops didn't disturb her. IMO the fight against miria wasn't that much exhausting. IMO yagi didn't do that without a purpose.

IMO yoma aren't parasites. They eat the guts and the brain of her victims and then simply shape shifting into it. they don't take it into "possesion" like the body snatchers. And i thought about the technological know - how the org had. If they could manipulate DNA to build a weapon like the claymores they must be more advanced than our culture today. They must have clusters and supercomputers with extremly high benchmarks. IMO that would ruin the claymoreverse and the best argument against that is, that the org couldn't plan how strong a claymore will become. It is like playing dice and that is good because else the org would be able to make theresas, priscillas and miatas as they like. Imo they copied from nature to make claymores. I'm not sure about the issue that the zemas are alicia and beth. IMO the org stole twins from all over the continent and the most capable of all are alicia and beth. The zemas served only as an example for that. Or is there evidence that alicia and beth ARE the zemas? Why i talk about the zemas? If the org only stole the zemas this would strongly indcate that they could make claymores as strong as they want when they want it.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:43   Link #478
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From the way I see it, the Org is pretty much like Umbrella (Resident evil) There is no way of completely destroying the organization. Sure, you can take down one in an unknown island, but another one will spring up in another unknown island or country.

Both do dangerous research and make deadly soldiers and then test it out on unexpecting victims.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:33   Link #479
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@chiba: I've only read chapter 72 and onward in Japanese. So I was just going on "itadaku"

@tempest: Yeah so maybe "yoma" is a strain, poison, virus etc. of some sort. The first creation could have been a Yoma or an AB. Then they took it down a notch, and made Claymores. Although it could be that the ABs were something new, the next stage of "evolution". maybe Riful has the secret potion but can't use it effectively without yoki manipulation.

Oh wait, revelation...they experiment with different doses, and that, along with the way it reacts with each individual, determines the Claymores strength. Clarice wasn't a failure but an experiment! It turns out her and Miata (the weakest and the strongest) make a good team, so they are sent on a quest to see what Clarice, (and Miata) are capable of. The monsters they encounter are sent in waves, "survival mode" style by the Organization to see how effective Clarice can be in combat, and if she gets in a jam, ironically it is Miata who has to be her mommy (this also gives Miata a challenge, keeping her on her toes and testing her sensory skills to the max. only fighting Yoma is just too easy)

Last edited by ergon; 2008-05-07 at 09:47.
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Old 2008-05-07, 10:07   Link #480
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ACK! Finally, finally i read the entire thread!!

About youmas... i was thinking: There's another proof they are made by the Organization.

If they were an entire separated race, why never - not even once - we saw any youma children?

Not even in that youma city at Tereza's Arc. If they existed, Miria or any of the others would find some in any place.

Youmas are shapeshifters, that's true. But their transformation was allways proportional. A male adult youma will turn into a male adult human form/body, a female adult youma (we just saw once) will turn into a female adult human form. They will never turn into babies, objets or plants.

Actually, that makes me wonder: if youma were actually created by the organization, what if they were originally human infected by the MIB? That youma who inpersonated Raki's brother Zaki could be really Zaki, infected by a youma virus or something like that.

The MIB could be doing more than getting money from the job of claymores. They could be creating more youmas, infecting humans.
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