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Old 2008-05-07, 16:46   Link #81
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Tak: The VB-6 Konig isn't a fighter, but it IS a flying Monster... which solved the main mobility issue of the original. The point for me (and I quoted that, not 4Tran), wasn't that it was a fighter... but that it was brought out of a game to be dropped into the main universe, and definitely was a homage to the old Monster of the original Macross, so I can't see them being afraid to show earlier fighters in the series or designs which hearken back to them.

And at this point, the VF-11 wouldn't be a front-line fighter; given the VF-17 was supposed to be its replacement, and the VF-171 seems to have replaced the VF-17... it'd be like sending a VF-4 out to fight the Vajra.
Except, the point I am making is that, as an artillery piece, the VB-6 require the least UPGRADE compare to other variable equipment possessed by the NUNS. Certain real-life military equipment, such as artillery units, usually end up on the bottom of the list for upgrades, as priorities are often provided to front-line combat units such as tanks and fighters. Thus why the US of A still retain the B-1 and F-117 bombers for DECADES while we've seen numerous frontline fighters rolling out from the assembly line.

As for them paying homage, look, its not even all that fascinating. Macross F is not the first Macross series to pay homage to old series. We've seen VF-1s and the MONSTER in Macross PLUS. The VF-1J was used EXTENSIVELY in Macross 7, as well as seeing the original MONSTER in action. Since VF-X 2 was released well AFTER the two shows finished their run, and that its treated as canon, its only sensible to bring the MONSTER, now upgraded into the VB-6 to Macross Frontier. Yeah, its NICE to see the Monster back again, but its not like the producers INTENTIONALLY wanted to pay homage. From a production standpoint, its a lot easier to use what is already available. Certainly saves them a lot of trouble coming up with another brand new unit.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:50   Link #82
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How could a VF-1 compete with a Queadluun-Rea, if a VF-25 can only break even with the latter?
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:55   Link #83
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I take it Macross isn't big on model sales.

As for an old warhorse seeing it's fairshare, the B-52 is projected to continue seeing service well into the mid 21st century, a hundred years after it first flew.
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Old 2008-05-07, 17:01   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
I take it Macross isn't big on model sales.
It is true that you won't find a lot of Macross kits out there, at least not for everything you saw on the show. However, kits from the original are still popular, such as the VF-1s, some Zent suits and so on. The YF-19 and 21s are equally popular. Nonetheless, unlike Gundam, Macross does not have as extensive of a relationship with Bandai, and their kits can come from a lot of companies while all scale Gundam kits are almost exclusively produced by Bandai.

Moreover, Macross variable fighters, unlike Gundams, are not designed EXCLUSIVELY for the sake of toy sales (which SEED was all about, see). Shoji Kawamori is not afraid to be complex with his designs. Thus there is an economic factor, Macross toys aren't very easy to produce. A while ago, there was a MONSTER action figure, but it was like a collector's item and very expensive. I'd imagine it to be so, since it was, well, monstrous.

That, and new Macross series usually come out every 5 years or so. Gundam rips a new one annually. Hard to compete the numbers, if you ask me.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-07, 17:09   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Except, the point I am making is that, as an artillery piece, the VB-6 require the least UPGRADE compare to other variable equipment possessed by the NUNS. Certain real-life military equipment, such as artillery units, usually end up on the bottom of the list for upgrades, as priorities are often provided to front-line combat units such as tanks and fighters. Thus why the US of A still retain the B-1 and F-117 bombers for DECADES while we've seen numerous frontline fighters rolling out from the assembly line.
There's also another reason that frontline fighters tend to get new revisions and replacements compared to things like artillery - they also often have a higher turnover rate, and the technology arrayed against them is usually upgraded MUCH faster than that used against bombers and artillery. Yes, new artillery pieces and concepts can and are introduced, but there's usually only so many ways to huck a chunk of steel and explosives across a long distance to do damage to an enemy. You can upgrade the thing throwing them by increasing its range, its payload, or its mobility; but that's pretty much it, and with the changes in how wars are fought, with an emphasis on using front-line fighters and fighter-bombers for just about all the missions you used to have a bunch of dedicated craft doing (which include the F-117, B1, and now B2 bombers)... it doesnt' make sense to spend all that money upgrading your bombers when your new fighters can do a similar job ALMOST as well.

The VB-6 Konig Monster, as far as I can see, is almost unique in providing the same type of firepower that other Destroids brought the original Macross and UN Spacy, but with the greater mobility that being able to fly gave the Valkyrie compared to its contemporaries. They may not have NEEDED other heavy-firepower units since then, which results in the VB-6 being used decades after it was being designed, especially as VF's have seen an increase in their strike capability due to steady improvements in gun and missile technology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
As for them paying homage, look, its not even all that fascinating. Macross F is not the first Macross series to pay homage to old series. We've seen VF-1s and the MONSTER in Macross PLUS. The VF-1J was used EXTENSIVELY in Macross 7, as well as seeing the original MONSTER in action. Since VF-X 2 was released well AFTER the two shows finished their run, and that its treated as canon, its only sensible to bring the MONSTER, now upgraded into the VB-6 to Macross Frontier. Yeah, its NICE to see the Monster back again, but its not like the producers INTENTIONALLY wanted to pay homage. From a production standpoint, its a lot easier to use what is already available. Certainly saves them a lot of trouble coming up with another brand new unit.

- Tak
It's not the fact that they'd be paying homage to Macross that it would be fascinating - it's just that fighter at the end of episode 5 DOES look like a VF-11, although it could just be a non-VF craft with a fold booster to allow it to travel. The VF-1J that you mentioned being used in Macross 7 was not front-line, but was available to the colony ships as well as to private individuals, so even if that craft we see at the end of the episode is a VF-11, it doesn't make it front-line, or even military.

As for canon, I'm just happy to see some of these older units which appeared only in the games make their onscreen debut in the series.
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Old 2008-05-07, 17:12   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
so even if that craft we see at the end of the episode is a VF-11, it doesn't make it front-line, or even military.
Except I was never arguing about anything frontline. I did not say anything about the VF-1J or VF-11 being frontline.

I was simply arguing about the fact that paying homage isn't a rare thing for Macross, that is all. So, as much as I appreciate you replying to me, its just not what I have in mind in the first place.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-07, 17:32   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Except I was never arguing about anything frontline. I did not say anything about the VF-1J or VF-11 being frontline.

I was simply arguing about the fact that paying homage isn't a rare thing for Macross, that is all. So, as much as I appreciate you replying to me, its just not what I have in mind in the first place.

- Tak
My apologies for the mistake - but yes, homages aren't new to Macross... although I'm not sure if I'd call the VF-1J and then the construction versions seen in Dynamite 7 'homages' so much as valid in-universe appearances due to the way they were later marketed to civilians and private companies for various reasons, especially as newer Variable Fighters took over combat and police duties in the various fleets. I am surprised that we've yet to see a prominent VF-19 appearance, given how it was the 'hot, new ship' of Macross 7.
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Old 2008-05-07, 17:50   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
How could a VF-1 compete with a Queadluun-Rea, if a VF-25 can only break even with the latter?
Well, it's a Queadluun-Rea, not a Queadluun-Rau, which could be the ancient design given a full systems upgrade by humans.

Furthermore, the VF-25 is stated to outclass the Q-Rea in manueverability. It was a training mission, so the opposing force should not be expected to completely outmatch the trainees. Three experienced pilots in antiquated suits vs. three rookies in state of the art valkyries is a reasonable handicap.
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Old 2008-05-07, 18:17   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
How could a VF-1 compete with a Queadluun-Rea, if a VF-25 can only break even with the latter?
-The Queadluun-Raus in SDF Macross often weren't capable of performing at their best (much of the fighting took place in the atmosphere), and when they were used at their best, by Milia, the VF-1s tended to get stomped.

-The Queadluun-Rea has inferior performance to the VF-25, and what was giving Alto troubles with Klein Klan was largely their disparity in skill.


I wouldn't call the Queadluun-Rea antiquated at all - since SMS is willing to use them even in possible encounters with the Vajra, they should still hold up pretty well.
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Old 2008-05-07, 18:58   Link #90
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I wouldn't call the Queadluun-Rea antiquated at all - since SMS is willing to use them even in possible encounters with the Vajra, they should still hold up pretty well.
Lets not kid ourselves, the basic firepower of the Queadluuns was far greater than Valkyries. In addition to its basic twin beam blasters, it had a missile payload that would make any Valkyrie pilot jealous. It also had two chest mounted cannons for medium-range engagements. In contrast, the Valkyries are often forced to balance just between short and long-range weaponry.

Sure, the VF-25s are supposedly much faster and agile, but Queadluuns have the firepower to compensate whatever shortcomings it might have. Besides, Alto fought Quran in a scenario that would have given the Queadluuns the most advantage. Its amazing how Alto put up a fight, nonetheless.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-07, 19:47   Link #91
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Most of the upgrading of the variable fighters haven't been to their armament in the first place - instead, it's been on maneuverability, acceleration, stealth, ergonomics and other similar features. That says to me that either the gunpods and missiles had been greatly improved over time (which is certainly possible), or that the UN Spacy had been satisfied with the firepower of Valkyries all along. Either way, firepower doesn't seem to be a particularly important distinction between variable fighters.

In the exercise, the Queadluun-Reas didn't use their missiles or their main gun, so the firepower advantage is more or less moot. While Alto couldn't use any missiles, he still had the advantage conferred by the VF-25's latent capabilities, and that of the super-pack. It was Klein Klan who operated under the greater handicap, which would make sense since they were basically trying to test him.
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Old 2008-05-07, 20:54   Link #92
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
In the exercise, the Queadluun-Reas didn't use their missiles or their main gun, so the firepower advantage is more or less moot. While Alto couldn't use any missiles, he still had the advantage conferred by the VF-25's latent capabilities, and that of the super-pack. It was Klein Klan who operated under the greater handicap, which would make sense since they were basically trying to test him.
If you are referring to the shoulder piece, that would be their support weapon. In terms of short-ranged firepower, the Queads still out-gun their Valkyrie counterparts with their twin blasters. Nene made the mistake of trying to out-run a Valkyrie, that is why she got shot down. Instead, Quran decided to put up a fight face-to-face as that is what Queads were designed to do, and do very well at!

Anyway, I am mainly speaking from my experience playing Another Century Episode. YF-19s for example, are faster in fighter mode and can easily outrun my Quead especially with afterburners. But the YF-19 also pack less punch and armor. The Queads on the other hand, may be a bit slower, but is actually more agile as a powered armor. Head to head, toe to toe, Queads can smack YF-19s silly, especially if the latter is dumb enough to resort to battroid mode.

Yes, ACE is just a game, but it tend to have an accurate portrayal of real-robots, imo.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-07 at 21:10.
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Old 2008-05-07, 21:20   Link #93
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Going by Mahq.net, there's been a dramatic leap in performance for Valks since the VF-1, even if the weapons haven't changed much. The difference between the VF-25 and the Queads wasn't particularly pronounced, even accounting for the pilots. Going by the stats on the site, a VF-01 would have had roughly a tenth of the ability a VF-25 has, with the difference not being as exaggerted at low elevations while in an atmosphere.

The conclusion I've reached is that all the times Queads fought VF-01s it was below 30,000 meters, while in space VF-01s would have absolutely gotten slaughtered.
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Old 2008-05-07, 21:39   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
How could a VF-1 compete with a Queadluun-Rea, if a VF-25 can only break even with the latter?
Let's see, faster accelleration, longer range, hardpoints for heavier weapons/armour, home ground advantage, culture shock and 1 Lady Killer A VF also has a smaller target profile compared to a QR. As long as a VF can hit first and stay out of effective range it'll probably come ahead. I suspect that Michel camped and sniped at them during his own evaluation test with Luca as his spotter

Thing is, a plain vanilla VF of any class with an average pilot isn't a match for a QR. Simply put, a QR has more missiles, guns [the Neo-QR now has 4 plus a heavier shoulder cannon], comparable speed and a tighter rate of turn/roll to a VF. It's essentially a flying ball with legs and armed to the teeth >_<. Then and now, it's a combat design proven over several thousand years and absolutely nasty in close combat [which it excels in].
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Old 2008-05-07, 23:11   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
If you are referring to the shoulder piece, that would be their support weapon. In terms of short-ranged firepower, the Queads still out-gun their Valkyrie counterparts with their twin blasters. Nene made the mistake of trying to out-run a Valkyrie, that is why she got shot down. Instead, Quran decided to put up a fight face-to-face as that is what Queads were designed to do, and do very well at!
I'm referring more to the missiles - with over a hundred of the suckers, they'd represent the greater majority of a Queadluun-Rea's firepower, and this is especially true at dogfighting ranges. It remains to be seen exactly how the shoulder cannon is employed and how effective it is in dogfights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Going by Mahq.net, there's been a dramatic leap in performance for Valks since the VF-1, even if the weapons haven't changed much. The difference between the VF-25 and the Queads wasn't particularly pronounced, even accounting for the pilots. Going by the stats on the site, a VF-01 would have had roughly a tenth of the ability a VF-25 has, with the difference not being as exaggerated at low elevations while in an atmosphere.

The conclusion I've reached is that all the times Queads fought VF-01s it was below 30,000 meters, while in space VF-01s would have absolutely gotten slaughtered.
You're largely correct. Most of the fighting between the Queadluun-Raus and SDF-1 were at lower altitudes. Moreover, it's important to note that VF-1s are aerodynamic in both their gerwalk and fighter forms whereas the powered armor is decidedly not. The last thing to take into account is that Zentradi attacks don't engage Valkyries to the exclusion of other battlefield foes. They had to contend with both numerous Destroids and SDF-1's defensive batteries as well. There were also times when VF-1s really did get slaughtered.
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Old 2008-05-07, 23:40   Link #96
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They had to contend with both numerous Destroids and SDF-1's defensive batteries as well. There were also times when VF-1s really did get slaughtered.
It's also interesting to note that QR deployment during Space War 1 was limited to the later part of the engagement. They were exclusive to elite units on top the gender seperation. They were probably no more than a few hundred in the female fleet and certainly not everything was committed at once. Considering the weapons loadout, speed and overall combat power, the QR is a very expensive piece of equipment to field.

In other words, sure the aliens had a kick human a$$ piece of equipment- but they were almost always outnumbered, fighting in an environmental handicap and under constant fire from veteran units at maximum range.

Of course, once they get past all that we're usually screwed by indisciminate missile spamming >_<

If the assumption that Boldolza's fleet was completely male, then thankfully all of the QR were on the human side.
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Old 2008-05-08, 00:12   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
They were probably no more than a few hundred in the female fleet and certainly not everything was committed at once. Considering the weapons loadout, speed and overall combat power, the QR is a very expensive piece of equipment to field.
That sure was not my impression throughout the original TV series. When the Meltlandis wanted to pick a fight, they'd commit everything to the front. However, unlike their male counterparts, the Meltlandis deployed nothing but Queads. Usually in the hundreds, if not thousands. By the latter part of the show, the Queads were being shot by Valkyries in the dozens with each passing minute, and vise versa. Sure, the Queads may be up there in the tech trees, but they were still mass produced like battlepods, albeit in lesser numbers. Regardless, they still managed to outnumber and out-gun Valkyries every time.

Now, the fleet that invaded Earth had approximately 4 million vessels, so in other words, no there weren't just 'hundreds' of Queadluun-Raus, there were thousands, if not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, even millions. Considering the full extent of the Zent fleets during Space War I consist of 1,000 ~ 2,000 fleets with 4 ~ 5 million vessels each, Queadluuns may even exist in the hundred millions.

And make no mistake, the Nousjadeul-Ger were meant to be a male equal to the female Queadluun-Rau, and those were also deployed in very large numbers. Its just unfortunate we've never seen a notable ace of the Nousjadeul-Ger, although keep in mind Milia was the only female enemy ace we've encountered in Macross. Then again, Macross doesn't toy with the idea of elitism and aces much, especially given the scale of its battles.

Now, if you take DYRL into account, there were millions of Queadluuns deployed by the Meltlandi Lap-Lamiz fleet just as there were millions of Nousjadeul-Gers deployed by Boldolza's fleet.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-08, 10:25   Link #98
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What caliber does the VF -25 employ. I've been looking at the older gun pods and starting with the VF-14 they don't list the caliber any more.

The VF-1J used a 3-barrel 55mm gun pod and the VF-11 uses a 6-barrel 30mm one
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Old 2008-05-08, 10:43   Link #99
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Ozma was using a 6-barreled gunpod.

Spoiler for Boomstick:


For figuring out the size of the individual barrels, maybe you can use the fingers as a reference? Compared to maybe when Ranka was being held?

Here's a couple shots to give an idea of the power a round fired from it has.

Spoiler for Peekaboo:
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Old 2008-05-08, 23:00   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Ozma was using a 6-barreled gunpod.

Spoiler for Boomstick:

Captian Obvious sees 5 barrels

Quote:
Quote:
That sure was not my impression throughout the original TV series. When the Meltlandis wanted to pick a fight, they'd commit everything to the front. However, unlike their male counterparts, the Meltlandis deployed nothing but Queads. Usually in the hundreds, if not thousands. By the latter part of the show, the Queads were being shot by Valkyries in the dozens with each passing minute, and vise versa. Sure, the Queads may be up there in the tech trees, but they were still mass produced like battlepods, albeit in lesser numbers. Regardless, they still managed to outnumber and out-gun Valkyries every time.

Now, the fleet that invaded Earth had approximately 4 million vessels, so in other words, no there weren't just 'hundreds' of Queadluun-Raus, there were thousands, if not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, even millions. Considering the full extent of the Zent fleets during Space War I consist of 1,000 ~ 2,000 fleets with 4 ~ 5 million vessels each, Queadluuns may even exist in the hundred millions.

And make no mistake, the Nousjadeul-Ger were meant to be a male equal to the female Queadluun-Rau, and those were also deployed in very large numbers. Its just unfortunate we've never seen a notable ace of the Nousjadeul-Ger, although keep in mind Milia was the only female enemy ace we've encountered in Macross. Then again, Macross doesn't toy with the idea of elitism and aces much, especially given the scale of its battles.

Now, if you take DYRL into account, there were millions of Queadluuns deployed by the Meltlandi Lap-Lamiz fleet just as there were millions of Nousjadeul-Gers deployed by Boldolza's fleet.

- Tak
Er, are we looking at the same show? Zentradi and Meltradi engagement against the SDF-1 throughout most of Space War 1 was either constant harassment or the ambush on Mars. Despite having numerical superiority, the aliens were either very conservative in their operations or just plain reckless.

In the first place, the main reason why the fleet was so conservative was because the commander was under orders to follow the trail of the Supervision Army battleship. Sure he could have blown them away at first instance, but doing so would probably destroy all further leads to the enemy. His priority was capture, not destroy [unlike some of the idiots in the fleet]. When he did attack, it was either to test their defenses or insert infiltrators.

Lets not forget that the SDF-1 had a weapon than can 1-shot a capitol ship as well as execute some unusual tactical manuevers. Any commander worth his salt isn't going to waste that sort of material and manpower, there would be mutiny otherwise. Added to this is the fact that the Zentradi had to keep away from culture bearing civilisations and you basically have an army tied with 1 arm behind its back.

The female fleet that showed up later was also under the same limitations. I suspect QR deployment was more as a deterrant towards rogue elements in the fleet than any notion of combined operations [considering the gender seperation].

Right now I'm wondering about if the current powered armour technology used by humans in Macross F. It's probably the first time it's appeared in the series and serves as a survival suit and integrated pilot suit. Thing is, pilots have to learn how to use it in addition to actually learning how to fly.
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