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Old 2008-05-05, 19:58   Link #121
nadare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Good points, but if Chiko didn't bring the explosives, how did they get there? And why would she have to lie? The gang already had control of the situation.
The gang didn't have complete control of the situation. There are still plenty of crewmen left as stated by the captain. They would've been overpowered.

The ship? I think it wasnt a bomb that destroyed it. I think it was self destruct system. Since, it would take a big bomb to actually destroy a ship that size.

Another proof Chiko was lying. When she said the line "You should have thoroughly inspected me." her eyes were not looking at the captain. She was looking the other way. A person who is telling the truth would've said it to his face. Which is why I believe it was a lie.

She had to lie because the captain wouldn't believe 20 faces. Since he knows he is a cunning man.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:00   Link #122
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadare View Post
The ship? I think it wasnt a bomb that destroyed it. I think it was self destruct system. Since, it would take a big bomb to actually destroy a ship that size.
Given that the ship was underwater for who know how long, and given that there would have been traces of oil and things, I would say a few small bombs would have started a train reaction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nadare View Post
Another proof Chiko was lying. When she said the line "You should have thoroughly inspected me." her eyes were not looking at the captain. She was looking the other way. A person who is telling the truth would've said it to his face. Which is why I believe it was a lie.
Actually, she WAS looking at the captain, which made things more convincing.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:12   Link #123
SeijiSensei
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Another interpretation that melds both points of view may be that Chiko was carrying bombs, but she didn't know it. (That seems a more plausible strategy than telling the truth to someone so inexperienced and possibly unreliable under pressure.) When accused, Chiko realizes the true situation and invents the lie on the spot to protect her compatriots.

BTW, I don't think the bombs would be all that heavy. I watched Bridge on the River Kwai again the other night, and the British commandos intended to destroy the bridge with plastic explosives. They talked about "plastique" as if it were a relatively new invention then (ca. 1943), but Chiko's story seems to begin about a decade later.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:12   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Given that the ship was underwater for who know how long, and given that there would have been traces of oil and things, I would say a few small bombs would have started a train reaction.
Hm... I don't think so. the inside of the ship should be flooded. Since there were holes everywhere.


Quote:
Actually, she WAS looking at the captain, which made things more convincing.
really? I always felt she was looking a bit at her lower left than straight at the eye. No matter how much I rewatch the scene It always feels like her eyes are moving to the left side then a bit lower.

Last edited by nadare; 2008-05-05 at 20:23.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:17   Link #125
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
BTW, I don't think the bombs would be all that heavy. I watched Bridge on the River Kwai again the other night, and the British commandos intended to destroy the bridge with plastic explosives. They talked about "plastique" as if it were a relatively new invention then (ca. 1943), but Chiko's story seems to begin about a decade later.
Actually, what's the decade for this series? I was thinking late 1920's.


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Originally Posted by nadare View Post
really? I always felt she was looking a bit at her lower left than straight at the eye. No matter how much I rewatch the scene It always feels like her eyes are moving to the left side then a bit lower.
She's just tilting her head, like a fox.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:29   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
[B][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]
She's just tilting her head, like a fox.
my mistake then ~.

Also another info to add that there wasn't a bomb is that.

There was no detonating device. Unless it was a time bomb which is highly unlikely.

Unless of course there are other bombs that can explode on their own without the use of a detonating device.

Then, another theory that 20 faces purposely asked Chiko since he doesn't have proof that there is a bomb since he doesn't have a detonating device to threaten the captain.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:48   Link #127
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadare View Post
my mistake then ~.

Also another info to add that there wasn't a bomb is that.

There was no detonating device. Unless it was a time bomb which is highly unlikely.
A counter to that:


They said that it was an explosive (
爆藥), not a bomb.

Meaning there is no absolute need for a detonating device.
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Old 2008-05-05, 20:59   Link #128
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Actually, what's the decade for this series? I was thinking late 1920's.
I believe it is a post war era story circa1960 judging for the car design.
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Old 2008-05-05, 21:01   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Actually, what's the decade for this series? I was thinking late 1920's.
In the first episode we see a black-and-white television with a smallish screen. Also, I thought the tank and airplane were built near the end of World War II but not used because the War ended. Finally the state of the buildings and so forth suggested that the postwar reconstruction had been going on for a while.

All this placed the opening of the show in the early-to-mid 1950's for me.
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Old 2008-05-05, 21:09   Link #130
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
In the first episode we see a black-and-white television with a smallish screen. Also, I thought the tank and airplane were built near the end of World War II but not used because the War ended. Finally the state of the buildings and so forth suggested that the postwar reconstruction had been going on for a while.

All this placed the opening of the show in the early-to-mid 1950's for me.
There are several counters to that.


1. Big business: Chiko is supposed to be the heir to a major business group (if I've understood it correctly). Almost all of the major groups were split up by the Occupation.

2. China: Here, we see a pre-PRC China. Given that PRC was established in 1949, this makes the series be before that year.

3. Europe: There's no sighs of the Soviets nor the post-war building.

4. U-boats: They were nearly extinct in the 1950's.

5. Captain's word: Japan was never supposed to be able to fight after WW2 (although they got their Self Defense Force later). This means that the captian would obviously have never said that he would have wanted to fight the country that has a man such as Twenty Faces.

6. Cloths: Chiko's aunt's fashion is from the 1920's. Plus, their standard of living certainly shows that Japan was very well off, something that would not have been happening in the 1950's.
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Old 2008-05-05, 22:50   Link #131
Kaoru Chujo
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I don't think the mangaka was very careful about chronology. But I think we are supposed to feel as if it is post-WW2.

The policeman's wish that the tank had been finished before the war ended makes me think readers are supposed to think of WW2. The big airplane makes me think of that period, too. And TV broadcasts were not common at all, even in the US, until the late 1940s. The cars look like anything from the 1930s to the early 1960s to me (in Japanese cars), but not earlier, I don't think. The horrid portrayal of China is ahistorical Japanese fantasy, in my opinion, and shouldn't be taken seriously. But the idea that Japanese troops had been in that area previously suggests a period after WW2.

The captain appears to be European, and his wish to fight the nation that produced Nijuu-mensou doesn't necessarily imply any knowledge of Japan's post-war constitution. The comparatively nice lifestyle was probably just fantasy, but I think that although the big business groups were split up after WW2, the Americans let many of the people who ran them carry on, in order to keep Japan's economy going, partly to help in the Korean War. And there were still lots of small submarines in the 1950s: the US apparently had over 200 diesel subs when the war ended, for example (Wikipedia).

But all this is beside the point if I am right and the mangaka was not being at all careful about his chronology. I think we are just being given a retro-feeling background.

As for the bombs, maybe we are again in "just believable enough" territory. I'm not sure that explosives left in the plane for years would still work -- nor that a plane under development would have been booby-trapped like that -- but I also can't see how the Senchou could have carried enough or gone enough places to booby-trap the plane as widely as it exploded. So I'm not looking for what would really happen so much as what the mangaka wants us to think. I do believe we are supposed to think crafty Nijuumensou planted the explosives in some nigiri, and that Chiko was crafty enough to come up with a clever answer. But why her answer was clever is still not clear to me: because she was lying, or because she was so adult in her way of expressing the captain's mistake?

I guess Nijuumensou gave the captain half the gold to get him to cause no more trouble and not call out his men for a fight that could have damaged the sub and done everyone harm, and whose outcome no-one could have been sure of.
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Old 2008-05-06, 00:20   Link #132
nadare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
A counter to that:


They said that it was an explosive (
爆藥), not a bomb.

Meaning there is no absolute need for a detonating device.
Still... from where they are it would've been impossible to detonate any explosive materials. And 20 faces said that what he's holding is the the size and shape of the explosives on board. To detonate such said explosives it would require heat or force.

The scene where Chiko was lying(assuming that she was) is powerful because... A child like Chiko who is honest and innocent like ap perfect child. Would lie in such a way. It shows how intelligent and mature she is. Thats why I believe she is definitely lying in that scene.
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Old 2008-05-06, 00:22   Link #133
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadare View Post
Still... from where they are it would've been impossible to detonate any explosive materials. And 20 faces said that what he's holding is the the size and shape of the explosives on board. To detonate such said explosives it would require heat or force.
There are explosives that can explode if thrown against a wall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nadare View Post
The scene where Chiko was lying(assuming that she was) is powerful because... A child like Chiko who is honest and innocent like ap perfect child. Would lie in such a way. It shows how intelligent and mature she is. Thats why I believe she is definitely lying in that scene.

It's obvious that she WAS lying, given that the riceball was eaten that the end
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Old 2008-05-06, 00:45   Link #134
nadare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
There are explosives that can explode if thrown against a wall.




It's obvious that she WAS lying, given that the riceball was eaten that the end

wait wait.. Which side are you on ? The side where she is lying or not ? I thought we were debating whether she was lying or not :O.

Yes. the explosives can explode when thrown against wall. Then that would mean that the only "explosives" available currently there is the onigiri 20 faces was holding. Which would mean that there was no explosives at all and Chiko was lying.
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Old 2008-05-06, 00:53   Link #135
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Don't forget, they didn't pat her down or anything like they did all the men, just opened the basket holding the onigiri, and even then only looked at the top layer.
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Old 2008-05-06, 01:03   Link #136
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by nadare View Post
wait wait.. Which side are you on ? The side where she is lying or not ? I thought we were debating whether she was lying or not :O.
I'm "arguing" against your interperation of the scene in the U-boat.


You were saying (if I understand it correctly) that how she acted in that smile scene showed that she was lying. However, I don't agree with with that view: We only got to know she was lying after everything was over.
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Old 2008-05-06, 11:14   Link #137
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
...It's obvious that she WAS lying, given that the riceball was eaten that the end
She just said he should have checked, so she wasn't lying if only some of the rice-balls were explosive. The impact of the scene was not necessarily that she was lying, but could have been just that she had another side than the innocent child and had been able to smuggle the explosives in unnoticed.

As for nadare's comment about them not being able to detonate from there, I thought the explosives were probably just timed.
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Old 2008-05-08, 03:53   Link #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
She just said he should have checked, so she wasn't lying if only some of the rice-balls were explosive. The impact of the scene was not necessarily that she was lying, but could have been just that she had another side than the innocent child and had been able to smuggle the explosives in unnoticed.

As for nadare's comment about them not being able to detonate from there, I thought the explosives were probably just timed.
As i've said its highly unlikely its a time-bomb since they dont know when to detonate it.
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Old 2008-05-08, 04:35   Link #139
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I think the best way to think of Nijuu Mensou's setting is as an alternative history, which better allows us to swallow some of the more fantasy elements in this (giant plane, for example). Ultimately, though, I don't think the setting matters all that much.

Seen up to ep 3.

This is quite good. The lead characters are strong and likable and the plot has been well sewn together. Chiko, and the relationships she has with the rest of Twenty Face's crew makes this so interesting, though. I mean, she's almost like a mascot to some of the guys, but she's also a helper and she's also important to Twenty Faces' plans, as proved by this episode. And, obviously, she's like a daughter to Twenty Faces. The father-daughter vibe they have going on is as obvious as day.

Twenty Faces is also very interesting. There's more to him than what's on the surface, that's for sure. He's a thief, but we get the indication that he's also something of a pacifist, and that he's not motivated by the profit, but that it's more a means to some sort of ends that's not clear right now. He's a noble thief, which is why the Robin Hood comparison is justified... to a certain extent.

This director knows what he's doing. I've never seen a work from him before, other than Futakoi (which was terrible), but this guy seems to have a handle on the important things in storytelling. This has been quite a bit of fun, so far. I'm liking where this is going.

Edit: Forgot to mention, but one of the things I really liked about ep 3 was that scene towards the end where the sub captain said "I hope to fight a country with men like you someday". It's an old cliche, but what wasn't cliched was Twenty Faces' response. Rather than the standard smile or thumbs up or reciprocal recognition of a sign of respect between rivals, he seemingly shot back a look of disinterest, bordering on contempt. I like that... it's a more realistic response to that situation given that the dude just tried to kill him and rob him of his treasure. What exactly it means, I'm not sure, but it almost goes some way towards painting Twenty Faces as a character that succeeds because he goes against the flow. Like I said earlier, there's more to this guy than what's there on the surface.

Last edited by Sorrow-K; 2008-05-08 at 05:16.
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Old 2008-05-09, 06:00   Link #140
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Epsiode 4 was SO FREAKIN' AWESOME, and Chiko is so damn awesome!
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