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Old 2004-04-09, 21:30   Link #21
avmoghe
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As far as real life goes........

A genius BY DEFINITION is better than a non-genius. The geniuses can do anything the hard workers can do.. the converse is not true.

Hard work and determination are fine and everything.... but some things are impossible to do unless you're a genius.

The geniuses are simply better (for lack of a more appropriate work) than others... which is the reason they are called geniuses in the first place.

Now as far as Naruto is concerned.....

Like a lot of other shows... the series tries to demonsrate how the elite geniuses can be 'overcome' by pure determination and will power of common non-geniuses. Needless to say... this works only in anime..

The geniuses of the show are: Sasuke, Neji, Orochimaru..... the gifted, chosen few elites.

What should realistically happen is that these three should be the best of the best...

But lets not forget this is a fictional story aimed at teens.... first preference is given to "morals and lessons" to be learned out of the story rather than realism.

So what WILL end up happening is the common non-geniuses - Naruto, Lee will (through their great will and determination) end up overpowering the geniuses. Predictably enough.. by the end of the series, Naruto will be stronger than Sasuke, and Lee will be stronger than Neji.. and of course.. some non-genius will kill Orochimaru.

THAT is my prediction.

.. oh well.. need to see more of the show before I can give a more definite answer.....
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Old 2004-04-09, 22:36   Link #22
Yujinbito
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Just a few things I would like to add:

First, I think that the use of the word 'genius' in reference to characters in Naruto is perfectly within the limits of the word. The Germans have spent a lot of time thinking about 'genius' and the word is often used in reference to young people talented in one or another form of the arts. (granted, this is once again in translation.. but you associate the word 'genius' with German thought much easier than you associate the word 'prodigy'). True, we normally think of a 'genius' as someone like Albert Einstein and not a martial artist. But why? Because he understood something intuitively and through thought. In saying that the Naruto characters aren't "geniuses" you're sort of implying that martial arts - and especially *learning* martial arts - has nothing to do with the mind.. but I don't think that's true. Especially not for characters like Neji who intuitively make up their own moves that just happen to also be the moves that would be taught to him if he were from the main family. That shows a mind or intuition that can consider and perceive all of the qualities, aspects, and possibilities available to a person born with the Byakugan. He is a genius because of his mind. I think it's perfectly within reason to use the term 'genius' as broadly as possible for describing an in-born natural and massive affinity for anything, be it composing for the piano at 4 years old, intuiting the theory of relativity, or recreating sacred moves on your own at the age of 14.

Also: Lee is a genius. Kakashi said as much when he saw Lee open the 4th (5th?) gate.. he said that it's true, everyone has those gates, and it's true that everyone can open one or two of them, but that to open up to 5 takes talent - "genius" if you will - even if you're a master. One can work and work and work but it's simply not possible to open those gates if you haven't the affinity. True, Kakashi says 'Could he be a genius?' But Naruto is a transparent enough show that if someone asks a question like that it's essentially being presented as a fact.

In response to Avmoghe:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avmoghe
Like a lot of other shows... the series tries to demonsrate how the elite geniuses can be 'overcome' by pure determination and will power of common non-geniuses. Needless to say... this works only in anime..
I don't agree. That's not the theme of the show at all. Look at what happened with Lee & Gaara, Neji & Hinata, etc. If Naruto was going to be about how hard work always triumphed over genius, then those fights would have been ripe for showing exactly how. But they did the exact opposite. In fact, you can almost take the ways that Lee and Hinata behaved in those fights as arguments for not pushing yourself too far, not trying to do things that you truly cannot do. That sometimes you truly cannot win and that it is silly to put your life in danger in those cases because proving yourself and your ability or even your spirit is not worth the loss of your life.

And Naruto himself is certainly not a poster boy for hardwork triumphing. It's not possible. Yeah, he works his ass off. So does everyone else.. and the only reason that Naruto is so good is that he has the power of the Kyubi, which amounts to genius - unnatural, non-innate genius, but if the definition is simply 'innate talent' then it is genius nonetheless.. sort of like Faust receiving genius from the devil in return for his soul. He wasn't born with that genius, but it doesn't stop him from being a genius during that period. Naruto cannot be a model for how hard work pays off because of the Kyubi.

More of the point, I think, is that *everyone* is a genius in their own way - maybe not to the same degrees, but certainly every character has varying talents. And that everyone has more worth as a human being than as any certain role or occupation - and that a healthy, open, aware community is a more beautiful thing that one strong individual.
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Old 2004-04-09, 23:56   Link #23
avmoghe
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Um, there was a reason why I said "by the end of the series".

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that, by the end of the series, Lee will have surpassed Neji by his determination

Naruto is the PERFECT model of showing determination. How many times has Naruto suddenly remember "oh crap if I die, I wont become hokage" or "oh crap if I die, someone will die"? It is always his determination that ends up saving him.

This show, like many other shows, does attempt to show that anything is possible as long as you're determined enough. Yes... they might run into some obstacles.. but by the end of the series, they will have reached their goals.

Yes, Lee is crippled right now.. I admire the creator for doing that. He will TRULY deserve my respect if he KEEPS Lee crippled for the rest of his life. However, I'm quite sure he doesn't have the balls (for lack of a better word) to show that. I'm sure Lee will be back again fighting... given the tone of the series.. its quite obvious.

As for Hinata.. there is no reason for her to surpass Neji... she didn't want to beat Neji very much. However... as for the Sasuke vs. Naruto and the Lee vs. Neji rivalries... its quite obvious to me that the non-geniuses will end up prevailing over the geniuses. (due to hard work (lee), or determination, will power(naruto).)

I don't know if I can blame the creator for being so predictable, however, since it IS supposed to be a kids show.
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Old 2004-04-10, 09:50   Link #24
Yujinbito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Yes, Lee is crippled right now.. I admire the creator for doing that. He will TRULY deserve my respect if he KEEPS Lee crippled for the rest of his life. However, I'm quite sure he doesn't have the balls (for lack of a better word) to show that. I'm sure Lee will be back again fighting... given the tone of the series.. its quite obvious.
OK, I'll agree with you now. You're right. Probably by the end of the series everyone will have done their best and the world will be a better place for it. I, too, would respect the decision to keep Lee crippled for the rest of the show. But you're right, that's not going to be what happens (been reading spoilers ). I suppose my model for such debates should be how much in awe I was when I thought they had really killed Sasuke during Haku vs. and how disappointed I was when it turned out 'oh wait, he's not dead! hurray! it's a miracle!'

Dangit, and here I was almost convincing myself that I had found a fighting show with a wholly respectable story that wasn't one-sided. I think I just wanted to find one though. Well, we won't know the real answer to all of this for a long time, anyway. But you're probably right. I still think it has the best plot of any fighting/tournament show I've ever seen.. (unless you count Rurouni Kenshin as a fighting show.. which it is, but it feels wrong to classify it as such somehow)

Of course, Lee WOULD have died by his own decisions if Gai hadn't stepped in. That puts the stakes somewhat higher.

As for Naruto. He IS the perfect model for showing determination. He is NOT the perfect model for showing how you can better yourself through hard work. He is an unnaturally talented person who also happens to have a big heart. His innate 'talent' is that he suffered for most of his childhood.. and after he was "saved" by Iruka-sensei's self-sacrifice for him, he has sort of made it his mission never to abandon anyone and always to take care of those he cares for. That's just a decision based on a lucky circumstance. His big heart comes from the life he *happens* to have led, being ostracized and then having someone put their life on the line for him. Naruto's function in the story is to show how you can apply what you know to what you care about. Of course.. the whole idea of 'protecting your loved ones with your own two hands' is pretty outdated and unnecessary/unfeasible. But.. whatever. And I don't consider the choice to stick around and fight to the end - "hard work" - really hard work when a character has determined to protect the ones they love with their own lives. Once that decision has been made, all he has to do is forget about his own life and put everything he can into the fight. Again, that's a state of mind, not a conscious effort.

Anyway. Point taken. Overall: you win.
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Old 2004-04-10, 10:23   Link #25
<^UmAyR^>
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Usually meaning the person is gifted, or has special talents in certain areas while lacking in others
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Old 2004-04-10, 10:27   Link #26
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Why do they necessarily need to be weak in an area to be a genius?

Man those were some long posts above.
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Old 2004-04-10, 13:00   Link #27
avmoghe
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YujinButo - I hear your pain I too search for anime's that aren't entirely one sided. May I suggest watching hunter x hunter? That is the show where I do believe the good guys might possibly get killed by the bad guys. I pray everytime I watch it that the main character never become the strongest... and so far he hasn't. There are actually pretty good indications that he never will become the strongest.

Bah... I just hope the creator has the courage to do something different than letting the good guys win through the cliche "hidden potential".

Heh.. I dunno.. maybe I'm just an idiot for asking for realism in fighting anime's :-D
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Old 2004-04-10, 13:23   Link #28
Hiko Seijuro 14th
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Why does everyone on this forum have to post an essay everytime they post.

Does anyone seriously have so little to do in life that they read all this nonsense.
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Old 2004-04-10, 13:32   Link #29
LithKage
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Nah... if I learned anything during the course of my grade school education it was the art of skimming.

If Genius were just potential then isn't every character in the series a genius. Why waste time on them if they weren't. I mean come on deep down you all know that Sakura will amount to something. Remeber the flashes we got during the Oro-Hokage fight. All the people were passing dowen kickass through the generations....Sakura was included as a student of Kakashi(who was taught by the 4th, who was taught be Jiyra, who was taught by the third, who was taught by 1st/2nd) .

The only person I've seen so far who seems to not be a genius (or genius in the making) is Iruka.
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Last edited by LithKage; 2004-04-10 at 13:34. Reason: I can't type
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Old 2004-04-10, 15:40   Link #30
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiko Seijuro 14th
Why does everyone on this forum have to post an essay everytime they post.

Does anyone seriously have so little to do in life that they read all this nonsense.
Apparently you read all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LithKage
The only person I've seen so far who seems to not be a genius (or genius in the making) is Iruka.
Yeah, he seems to have maxed out his potential (or at least he can't improve by leaps and bounds within a short amount of time).

And Rock Lee surpassing Neji? Maybe...but Neji works his *ss off, too...

Last edited by raikage; 2004-04-10 at 15:58.
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Old 2004-04-10, 20:16   Link #31
Yujinbito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiko Seijuro 14th
Why does everyone on this forum have to post an essay everytime they post.
LOL. Sorry. I just like to make sure what I intend to say is clear. Why do people have to 'prove' how 'smart' they are by attempting to demean everyone else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Bah... I just hope the creator has the courage to do something different than letting the good guys win through the cliche "hidden potential".
Heh. I think there's the potential in this series for that to happen. Pitting a bunch of characters against each other in deadly fights in the Chuunin exams, and developing them all to the point where you sort of consider them all the heroes, was somewhat of a different thing to do. We'll just have to see I guess. And I'll see about checking out HunterxHunter (usually stay away from long series, Naruto just accidentally dragged me in).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LithKage
The only person I've seen so far who seems to not be a genius (or genius in the making) is Iruka.
As for Iruka, well.. I certainly think it takes talent to deal with a class of 20 children... and not have them hate you. The idea of genius in the series seems to trickle down to the sort of utopian community idea of a society where everybody is doing the job that they can do the best, and therefore all's right with everything. Konoha is supposed to be a loving, healthy community because everybody is fulfilling a role that they find important and, most importantly, that they are good at - i.e. "genius".

Question: If you are replying to statements made in a topic, but which are not directly related to the subject of the thread, are you off topic?
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Old 2012-08-31, 23:01   Link #32
bonsobon
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I did some rereading of the manga recently and noticed something. Obito had activated a 2 tomoe sharingan in both eyes while Sasuke only did it in one eye (during his fight with Haku). Do you guys think it means anything at all considering how the manga has gone since or is it just interesting trivia and not really important?
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Old 2012-09-01, 01:06   Link #33
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
True, but the survival of the user from these body modification jutsu's are one in the same with the purposes of the jutsu. An essential element of Orochimaru's body splitting technique and Suigetsu's technique is that the user doesn't get harmed, where as Tobi's seems to be transporting matter from one dimension to another
there's not a difference between their techniques aside form skill. kakashi just sent a naruto clone into the other dimension while preserving the clone so theoretically kakashi can send a person through as well without harming them

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
I did some rereading of the manga recently and noticed something. Obito had activated a 2 tomoe sharingan in both eyes while Sasuke only did it in one eye (during his fight with Haku). Do you guys think it means anything at all considering how the manga has gone since or is it just interesting trivia and not really important?
I think it means obito was indeed a genius ninja, he was just a late bloomer for various reasons. His MS potential is also proof of that, just as him gaining tomoe at a faster rate than the genius sasuke did when he was younger is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakash123 View Post
Has anyone considered that maybe tobito might just be like the current edo madara.who was revived by edo tensei and did the seals to remove himself from the contract?thus having almost infinite chakra and doesn't go blind?or he might some kind of modified edo?like what kabuto said he did to madara?
it's an interesting theory, but if obito was ET he wouldn't have MS since he didnt have that before his 'death'. also i doubt he would have that facial scar. i know that the 3rd raikage kept his scar in ET but he lived with that. if obito had died at the bridge then the cave in would have been his death. its not like all the ET zombies display the wounds that killed them. none of them do. they look like how they did in life and this is not how obito looked
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Old 2012-09-01, 08:43   Link #34
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I think it means obito was indeed a genius ninja, he was just a late bloomer for various reasons. His MS potential is also proof of that, just as him gaining tomoe at a faster rate than the genius sasuke did when he was younger is.

I wouldnt call him a genius and say that his ms proves that. I wouldnt call anyone a genius unless it came before minato. Think about how kakashi said when if you look into the sharingan its all done but to me it seems like during the construction of the village when Madara and Izuna was around there was ninjas fighting them and looking into their eyes and still living.


Nothing really says that obito was a genius, he acted like naruto and we know that he is not a genuis. sasuke had 2 tomoe in one eye and one in the other kish could have done this cause it was the first time we said it and it was the start of the series so he wanted to show the progression of the sharingan and have the full three like kakashi.
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Old 2012-09-01, 11:45   Link #35
Dengar
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Obito was older I think, and most definitely more experienced, than Sasuke, when he awakened his Sharingan for the first time. To say he has some latent talent is one thing, to call him a genius is something completely different.
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Old 2012-09-01, 12:53   Link #36
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But what's the point of wearing that lame mask?

Did the 4th fight Madara or Obito? The timeline does not add up AT ALL.
i think it was Madara. Doesn't make sense if it was Obito. And I think Madara died very recently. Sometime after the Sasuke Itachi fight
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Old 2012-09-01, 13:24   Link #37
james0246
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I think it means obito was indeed a genius ninja, he was just a late bloomer for various reasons. His MS potential is also proof of that, just as him gaining tomoe at a faster rate than the genius sasuke did when he was younger is.
Why does having an MS make Obito a genius? Also, how does gaining tomoe faster make him a genius? That being said, Sasuke activated his Sharingan at the age of 7/8 (whenever the massacre occured).

Honestly, Tobi is mostly a one note character (similar to Hidan) that just happens to have a seriously powerful ability. Nothing he has done has indicated any real genius, unless you are calling him an acting genius.
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Old 2012-09-01, 15:39   Link #38
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Why does having an MS make Obito a genius? Also, how does gaining tomoe faster make him a genius? That being said, Sasuke activated his Sharingan at the age of 7/8 (whenever the massacre occured).
It was during the Haku fight but ok.
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Old 2012-09-01, 16:57   Link #39
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It was during the Haku fight but ok.
During the Haku fight he reactivated it. If you reread the flashback of the Uchiha massacre again, you will see that he activated the sharingan when he got mad at Itachi, but due to the trauma caused by the "incident" I'm assuming he forgot.
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Old 2012-09-01, 17:05   Link #40
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It was during the Haku fight but ok.
No it was not. Check 403 again, Sasuke clearly activates the Sharingan at the age of 7/8 (as Sasheks has pointed out). And while the trauma may have caused him to "forget" that the Sharingan had activated, more likely he simply did not know it had activated.
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