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Old 2008-05-10, 19:22   Link #621
Zsych
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I think that if there's no choice.. lets say you have to acquire the bio-weapon.. the choice of experimenting on random nobodys for the benefit of your people, is better than experimenting on your own people. Like if you had to choose one random person to die. If you chose your mother, you deserve to rot in the undersides of Hell.

Its a govenment's responsibility to keep its own people safe and happy first and foremost, not other people.
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Old 2008-05-10, 19:54   Link #622
Cyclone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancient Soul View Post
You think that i'm not aprove of what Miria is doing?
I do.Just i think that for moment she can't win.
Yes she has the right to defend herself...and thus kill the MiBs...
At least we agree on something...

Quote:
You just don't understand the bigger picture.
Yagi expanded his world for something not just for fun.
You did't read to many history books it seem.
Friends became enemy.Enemies became friends.
Even Clare was close to make a deal with Riful who nearly kill her.
I'm afraid you skipped writing down too many steps in your thought process to allow me to follow completely, so I'll go 1 by 1:

1) uh huh. sure.
2) Yagi expanded the world precisely to make the MiBs bad and make Miria's goals possible.
3) I haven't? If you say so.
4) Is that what passes for teaching in history class now-a-days? Good grief!
5) You seriously think that Clare was tempted to accept? I don't.

Quote:
Miria plan his revenge for seven years already.I just can't hate a person for seven years.If you can i don't care.You think that i'm guilty because i can't do this?So i'm evil or weak from your point of view?So all good people are crazy or even bad they don't exist?My life is not a copy of yours and our personal matters don't have place here.Even good people can defend themself without esitation against a threat.Rabona soldiers proved this.
I give Cid/Galk and the crew an A for effort. Problem is they accomplished almost nothing and it's time for them to re-think their defence strategy.
Strange though - these good people (who were unfortunatly way too weak) - were trying to solve their problem by killing, not by peace treaty or negotiations, huh?

Quote:
<<<Cyclone : Doesn't mean you shouldn't try to>>> ...stop a nuke.

Crazy.I was talking about your own iphotetical example and you make him like a reality.Tell me you can stop a nuke?
Way to creatively edit. Your original post said "if someone threatens you with a nuke". I'd start planning on how to go after the someone, of course - not the nuke.

What made you get on the subject of nukes though anyways? I sure didn't bring them up. It's not like DoDs can be compared to them - all indications are that DoDs are sentient and thus know how to selectively target.

Quote:
Forgiving a men can save a thousands.This is fine for me.Not for you?Prisonier exchange came to mind.
Oh, I'm willing to forgive normal things - I just have to be reasonably sure that the thing I'm forgiving will not re-occur anytime soon. With the amount of corpses the Organization has left in it's wake though, I cannot forgive them - I, as an individual, have no right to. All of their victims would have to forgive them first, before I could forgive them. So basically they are beyond forgiveness.

Quote:
<<<Cyclone : You are opposed to reaching out and making friends with other races? That's called racism, isn't it?>>>

Race?Is a different species.Human specie & Dragons specie are different.Is called Xenophobia not racism.

DRAGONS are usually evil in wetern culture and Europe in general.My cultural background influence me even if i don't want to...sorry...but if aliens came right now and help Country X to take the world (by war/killing people) are they good?...
This is why ergon's partial translation should never have been deleted. No matter my post is still there. Basically, the quote as best I can make out is:
"but one of the powers appears to control and made allies(nakama) with a hard skinned nomadic race known as the Descendants of Dragons."

Earlier on Miria says the big continent is made up of many people and many races. Somehow I got the impression that continent was one where elves, dwarves, fairies and countless other supernatural creatures exist (Irene/Ophelia's elf ears for example I guess are a result from that). In that context, the image in my mind associated with the DoDs becomes more inline with Dragon Quest (8 in particular) rather than the European tales of knights slaying princess eating dragons that I heard growing up.

Remember, Yagi is Japanese, and so I wouldn't be surprised if he took the wise old sages route with the DoDs as dragons seem to be more respected in japan than in Europe.

Quote:
MY DIFFERENCES with Miria is not about what she do but about his priorities.She want to attck The ORg first...i don't agree...if Galatea or Clare will say this in the next chapter youm will say that they are "silly"?
With this chapter we find that the Organization is the source of the problem. There would be no youma without them. With priority on hunting youma, you are faced with the problem that the Org will produce more and more to make up for the numbers you kill - an infinite cycle. You first need to cut off the supply, then clean up the mess - it's the most efficient way.

Quote:
That i said that The Island must obtain by treaty full rights in human alliace.You don't know nothing about this things works?By you a war once started can't be stopped with a peace if compromises are to be made?
I'd say we have a massive disagreement as to what war actually is - and I, of course think, I'm right. I'll simplify it:

- wars are generally caused when 2 countries/powers have a disagreement where diplomancy FAILS and where compromise is not possible in either's eyes.

- war starts.

- The purpose of war is to kill people and break things until the other side cries uncle and can't take it anymore and agrees to terms of surrender it would have thought unacceptable before the war.

- the old saying "all's fair in love and war" has more than a grain of truth to it.

- Lasting peace is achieved only after military victory (i.e. the other side surrenders). Attempts to broker peace before victory is achieved through diplomancy typically result in no more than temporary cease fires that give the losing side enough time to re-arm and re-group.

I'm guessing you're already hitting reply to address these last 3 points which you think are very objectionable or downright wrong. Don't bother coming out with the "you approve of x?" argument. It's not about approving or disapproving, it's simply the way it is. War, as defined above, leads to some pretty stomach turning and horrible consequences, but that's what war is. Barbaric, violent, destructive, and deadly. It's why war sucks and should be avoided whenever possible and peace should be valued.

Quote:
3.Country C (GUILTY in Cyclone eyes from not stoping Country B from invading with semi-nukes claymores/AB, GUILTY because they were not smart enough to see this coming and don't know how to stop a nuke).
Please quit putting words in my mouth.
It took Country C 100 years to notice they were under attack, but once they know, I expect some reaction from them.
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:57   Link #623
Zsych
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
At least we agree on something...
- wars are generally caused when 2 countries/powers have a disagreement where diplomancy FAILS and where compromise is not possible in either's eyes.
Side A: We want your land, your oil, and your subservience to us, because with those additional resources our lives will be better, though yours may be worse.
Side B: We refuse.
Side A: Then you leave us no choice but to resort to force. Know that you are responsible for the suffering and deaths of your people...


:P

Just joking there.

---

Hmmm... on further consideration, I find nothing wrong with the Ghost 7 destroying the people who oppressed the people of this island, and often with their creations caused the deaths of the Claymores' friends and families. The right course of action really depends on what side you're on.

The greater scheme of things can always be thought about later(unless the country that created the Org gets pissed and sends in the big guns)
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Old 2008-05-10, 21:28   Link #624
Ancient Soul
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<Cyclone...

...ok lets call a truce and make a summary about our discussions...

...don't wory Cyclone i'm not say that you are wrong about wars...and sorry for putting words in your mouth...

In fact i have took two scans and they are different in translation...maybe there are more and better versions of translation on the net...i just took this ones for good...i don't know japanese...

So we both agree that the MiBs are evil and must be defeated.
We are both on Miria's side.

Our disagreements are about MiBs lifes and what side should Miria choose and how peace can be reached :

You think that the MiBs must be killed first as fast as Miria can do it and even side with the DODs and fight vs Human Side 1 and win.Right?

I think that Miria should go at least for Isley+Priscilla first, and then after victory over them against the ORG and don't kill them but use them in order to protect The Island as much as she can.They have knowledge about everything in the first place.You will kill such "treasure"?
Lets say that the MiBs will burn their archives...they maybe.Miria will now know nothing about the World.INTEL is very important in wars.

I don't really care witch one she side with as long as The Island is safe.Is The Island our side after all no?But The Human Side (1) will attack without doubt, this experiment is theirs after all.They don't want to lose it because they need them against : The Human Side (2)+DOD (if this is the true after all from your translation).

Miria just know to little about both sides in order to choose right now.We also.

You say that Yagi is japanese but all Claymore setup is western based, so i took the conclusion that the DODs are evil.Yagi only know if the dragons on Human Side 2 are good or evil, we just think one way or another.

Is just that Riful and Isley (+Priscilla) are smart and you are ignoring them completly.They are 1+1+2(Pris)=4 AO.They will know that they are in danger after The ORG defeat.What they will do?How the others AB will react?The ones in the north joined forces.Maybe Isley, Riful and Priscilla will join forces to defeat Miria's New Organisation.You think that Miria should make peace with them?I doubt this.So they will be in danger.Some of them may even go crazy like Agatha.How many claymores will Miria will have at that time in order to protect the island?

In the end Miria (in fact Yagi) will decide about this.So in the end we will know.I will not be mad at Yagi if he choose your version over mine or another version of events rather than this ones.
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Old 2008-05-10, 21:49   Link #625
ergon
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They restored my partial translation actually...but its like ten pages back now

"but one force took a non-human race, with extremely tough skin, who are actually called the descendants of dragons, into their allies" is what I thought it meant at first, then I thought "...you could almost say they are descended from dragons..." was better...but looking at it again, I think what it really says is

"but one force took a non-human race into their allies, with such hard, tough skin that they could be said to have descended from dragons."

Pretty much, theres no dragons, these guys are just really really tough. Hence the need for indestructible swords.

ps: n00ks and anthrax are a bit extreme

Last edited by ergon; 2008-05-10 at 23:18.
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Old 2008-05-10, 22:03   Link #626
chibamonster
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I'm glad they put it back Ergon. . I gave the mods a hard time about it (and even made my own thread for it here) because I really appreciated the work you put into it for sharing a better translation with the forum. I think having a good translation really is essential in order to have a decent conversation about Claymore because little things are so important in this series. In other series it would not matter as much because things get made up all the time with little or no relevance to future events. Good thing the mods can be reasonable.

Nukes and anthrax would be an extreme example unless the nukes and antrhax can cuddle with raki like Priscilla does! The WMD's in claymore are mostly chicks with the exception of Isley. Claymore has many Women of Mass Destruction.
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Old 2008-05-10, 22:32   Link #627
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
I'm glad they put it back Ergon. . I gave the mods a hard time about it (and even made my own thread for it here) because I really appreciated the work you put into it for sharing a better translation with the forum. I think having a good translation really is essential in order to have a decent conversation about Claymore because little things are so important in this series. In other series it would not matter as much because things get made up all the time with little or no relevance to future events. Good thing the mods can be reasonable.

Nukes and anthrax would be an extreme example unless the nukes and antrhax can cuddle with raki like Priscilla does! The WMD's in claymore are mostly chicks with the exception of Isley. Claymore has many Women of Mass Destruction.
Claymore gives the term WMD a whole new meaning .
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Old 2008-05-10, 23:27   Link #628
gnc742
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just remembered raki.... i wonder what has happened to him... it's been seven years. hope she's not a crybaby anymore. i think he would be around 17 yrs old already? It would be cool if isley turns him into an AB. Then Clare would have to kill him.. hahha
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Old 2008-05-11, 00:03   Link #629
Cyclone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsych View Post
Side A: We want your land, your oil, and your subservience to us, because with those additional resources our lives will be better, though yours may be worse.
Side B: We refuse.
Side A: Then you leave us no choice but to resort to force. Know that you are responsible for the suffering and deaths of your people...
Pretty much. Sounds comical, but yes - that's how wars typically start...

----------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancient Soul View Post
...ok lets call a truce and make a summary about our discussions...

...don't wory Cyclone i'm not say that you are wrong about wars...and sorry for putting words in your mouth...
Sounds great - and sorry if I said anything too over the top too.

Quote:
In fact i have took two scans and they are different in translation...maybe there are more and better versions of translation on the net...i just took this ones for good...i don't know japanese...

So we both agree that the MiBs are evil and must be defeated.
We are both on Miria's side.

Our disagreements are about MiBs lifes and what side should Miria choose and how peace can be reached :

You think that the MiBs must be killed first as fast as Miria can do it and even side with the DODs and fight vs Human Side 1 and win.Right?
Pretty much - though I am not advocating a truce with the DoDs side just yet - we know next to nothing about them so far. Hopefully Miria is not done talking about the subject yet. I do agree that the Org has to go.


Quote:
I think that Miria should go at least for Isley+Priscilla first, and then after victory over them against the ORG and don't kill them but use them in order to protect The Island as much as she can.They have knowledge about everything in the first place.You will kill such "treasure"?
Lets say that the MiBs will burn their archives...they maybe.Miria will now know nothing about the World.INTEL is very important in wars.
I don't see Pricilla and Isley to be an immediate threat. Isley and Riful for example have lived almost a hundred years without causing too much havoc (until Isley lost to Pricilla). Pricilla has been better since meeting Raki too.

It's not that I don't see the youma as problem - I do. The fact is though, that I think the Org is a bigger problem because they are feeding it. They make youma as fast or faster as Claymores can kill them, and each new Claymore they make is a new victim and a potential risk to awaken. In short, until the Organization is stopped the problem cannot be contained.

Once the organization is stopped, youma can presumably be hunted out of existance. Not possible with the organization around. Once there are no more youma, you can try going after Awaken Beings, and well, Clare and company die in that attempt, then at least we'll have only a handful of ABs roaming around like a natural disaster, rather than ABs, youma, and the Organization too.

As for the Organization being a tressure trove of information, it is - but the cost of having this information (i.e. having the Organization continue in their activities) is way too high for me to bear. Besides, it's not like they can't capture one or two of the MiBs and forcefully persuade them

As for the DoD side - well, we don't know enough, but it's possible they don't know about the Claymore Island - else they would have probably attacked it already.

Quote:
(if this is the true after all from your translation).
I try my best, but it's not my first langauge. Trust ergon or 10sigh for finer details. I think I got the gist of it though.

Quote:
In the end Miria (in fact Yagi) will decide about this.So in the end we will know.I will not be mad at Yagi if he choose your version over mine or another version of events rather than this ones.
We'll see what happens. As long as it's good and makes sense, I'll be happy too.
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Old 2008-05-11, 00:25   Link #630
Cyclone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ergon View Post
They restored my partial translation actually...but its like ten pages back now

"but one force took a non-human race, with extremely tough skin, who are actually called the descendants of dragons, into their allies" is what I thought it meant at first, then I thought "...you could almost say they are descended from dragons..." was better...but looking at it again, I think what it really says is

"but one force took a non-human race into their allies, with such hard, tough skin that they could be said to have descended from dragons."

Pretty much, theres no dragons, these guys are just really really tough. Hence the need for indestructible swords.

ps: n00ks and anthrax are a bit extreme
Awesome to hear it's back! Thank you Mods.
(Oh well - there goes any reason for joking about Galatea's wrists...)

about that line in particular though:

"だがその一方の勢力がまるで龍の末裔とも言われるような強固な外皮を持つ人外の種族を仲間に引き 入れ"

人外 - absence of human habitation (or breech of morals; inhuman treatment)
種族 - race/tribe/species

Does that mean that the DoDs are a race from some unpopulated area, that they have no area of their own (are nomads), or what exactly? Or am I misreading that entirely (or should I be reading 人外 as simply it's parts [ouside (of) humans] instead)?
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Old 2008-05-11, 00:26   Link #631
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You know, lately it seems that a lot of people here are really getting apprehinsive about Miria's plan. Some people think she's rushing into this. Some people have even instigated that she was as bad as Clare. I would have to disagree with this.
We've got to remeber that Miria has been thinking and formulating for seven years now. What's more , Miria has just began reveling what she knows. She hasn't even told us here plan. I think were jumping the gun here when we say that Mria is acting recklessly because she hasn't even reacted yet ,nor told us what exactly does she plan to do. And we can't even say that the Org. is the big evil yet either because we don't even know what the DoD has been doing either.

While this should probably go under the Raki thread, I was thinking Cid and Gulk might have seen Raki. He has been gone for such a long time it feels like he missed half of the manga already.

Oh and might I add, congrats. Ancient soul on that major debate you just survied!
It's like a right of passage here.
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Old 2008-05-11, 00:44   Link #632
Ryuken
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torri_fay_torren@hot View Post
You know, lately it seems that a lot of people here are really getting apprehinsive about Miria's plan. Some people think she's rushing into this. Some people have even instigated that she was as bad as Clare. I would have to disagree with this.
We've got to remeber that Miria has been thinking and formulating for seven years now. What's more , Miria has just began reveling what she knows. She hasn't even told us here plan. I think were jumping the gun here when we say that Mria is acting recklessly because she hasn't even reacted yet ,nor told us what exactly does she plan to do. And we can't even say that the Org. is the big evil yet either because we don't even know what the DoD has been doing either.

While this should probably go under the Raki thread, I was thinking Cid and Gulk might have seen Raki. He has been gone for such a long time it feels like he missed half of the manga already.

Oh and might I add, congrats. Ancient soul on that major debate you just survied!
It's like a right of passage here.
Hmmmmm!
I do appreciate the offer, but I'm not one of those who thinks that shes rushing into anything and above all, why should anyone get apprehensive about her or her plan.
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Old 2008-05-11, 02:16   Link #633
ergon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
人外 - absence of human habitation (or breech of morals; inhuman treatment)
種族 - race/tribe/species

Does that mean that the DoDs are a race from some unpopulated area, that they have no area of their own (are nomads), or what exactly? Or am I misreading that entirely (or should I be reading 人外 as simply it's parts [ouside (of) humans] instead)?
Yeah I made a little comic about galatea's wrists yesterday

It looks like we use the same dictionary heh. I actually didn't look up that word, I just assumed it meant "non-human". Pretty sure thats it.

Last edited by ergon; 2008-05-11 at 20:57.
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Old 2008-05-11, 02:31   Link #634
Cyclone
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Originally Posted by ergon View Post
It looks like we use the same dictionary heh. I actually didn't look up that word, I just assumed it meant "non-human". Pretty sure thats it.
I'll check my paper dictionarys tomorrow night when I get home - used kantango now. Thanks
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Old 2008-05-11, 09:42   Link #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torri_fay_torren@hot View Post
You know, lately it seems that a lot of people here are really getting apprehinsive about Miria's plan. Some people think she's rushing into this. Some people have even instigated that she was as bad as Clare. I would have to disagree with this.
We've got to remeber that Miria has been thinking and formulating for seven years now. What's more , Miria has just began reveling what she knows. She hasn't even told us here plan. I think were jumping the gun here when we say that Mria is acting recklessly because she hasn't even reacted yet ,nor told us what exactly does she plan to do. And we can't even say that the Org. is the big evil yet either because we don't even know what the DoD has been doing either.

While this should probably go under the Raki thread, I was thinking Cid and Gulk might have seen Raki. He has been gone for such a long time it feels like he missed half of the manga already.

Oh and might I add, congrats. Ancient soul on that major debate you just survied!
It's like a right of passage here.
I think Miria has been planning for longer than seven years.
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Old 2008-05-11, 14:14   Link #636
Cyclone
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Originally Posted by ergon View Post
It looks like we use the same dictionary heh. I actually didn't look up that word, I just assumed it meant "non-human". Pretty sure thats it.
Ive done a bit of digging and found a japanese site with what I think is the correct definition.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA%E5%A4%96

Again, as best I can make out - the site is in japanese afterall - the second point says that 人外 means:

it's an archaic term for a beast or youkai. A vague term in literature subculture which includes beast men or sub-humans(?).

Did I get that right?
So it looks like the DoDs are some kind of beastmen?
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Old 2008-05-11, 14:26   Link #637
chibamonster
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Beastman!?! My insane theory of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann makes even more sense now!
Spoiler for Gurren Lagann Beastman:
I am excited to find out exactly what the relationship of these DoD's are to the rest of the claymore world.
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Old 2008-05-11, 14:29   Link #638
Cyclone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
Beastman!?! My insane theory of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann makes even more sense now!

I am excited to find out exactly what the relationship of these DoD's are to the rest of the claymore world.
Let's wait for ergon's second opinion before jumping to conclusions. Looks like they might be though.
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Old 2008-05-11, 14:42   Link #639
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There's no time for that! I need to figure out if Priscilla can be Viral or not! Who is going to play Rossiu!?! I also assumed it meant something not human from the kanji but I am no expert on kanji.
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Old 2008-05-11, 14:42   Link #640
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But jumping to conclusions is such fun...
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Biki Biki Biki Biki... (raaarrrggghhh!!! i need some coffee!)
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