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Old 2008-05-12, 13:38   Link #41
Burner of Anime
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Originally Posted by zetsubou-san View Post
This reminds me of a certain episode of a particular series where strawberry short cake became strawberry smoothie
Oh No, I'm in DESPAIR!!!!!!

Seriously, I'm wondering how a bad @SS military able to take on millions of enemy ships on a song suddenly find it difficult to run recon missions or a proper rescue operation. It's not possible that they've gone soft in the last 14 years that only a professional soldier is what goes for a proper job.
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Old 2008-05-12, 13:42   Link #42
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Zentradi's are borned soldiers, sure culture has soften them, but put them in the right situation and genetics will come forth.



Also i won't be surprised if they don't have full size zentradi space suits and weapons about just incase of an attack.

After all they are in an unknown part of space and they must have manadatory evacuations and in dire situation plans to provide self defence for all colonist.
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Old 2008-05-12, 14:00   Link #43
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does look like Nuns is getting cheaper. Haven't seen one VF 171 with a super pack yet

Also i wonder if they lost a lot of money from the VF-19 mass production line. Supposedly the VF-19 was supposed to become the next main style fighter of NUNS and yet we see the mass produced 171 instead .

also anyone notice how that stage hand guy seem to kinda freak out when Grace answered that call with her "head". Foreshadowing on a culture clash between Galaxy and Frontier?

Last edited by squaresphere; 2008-05-12 at 14:06. Reason: culture
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Old 2008-05-12, 14:09   Link #44
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
does look like Nuns is getting cheaper. Haven't seen one VF 171 with a super pack yet

Also i wonder if they lost a lot of money from the VF-19 mass production line. Supposedly the VF-19 was supposed to become the next main style fighter of NUNS and yet we see the mass produced 171 instead .
Well seeing the fighter sent in ep 5 I must say each fleet has different choices for a mainline fighter.

Macross 7 had a bulk of VF-11's, a few VF 17's and VF-19's and a couple of VF-22's.

Megaroad 13 had VF-14 Vampires for it's mainstay.

They don't just built these thing I suppose they will have to pay the manufacturer.

That's capitalism for ya. If your fleet government is cheap sorry.
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Old 2008-05-12, 14:10   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
Oh No, I'm in DESPAIR!!!!!!

Seriously, I'm wondering how a bad @SS military able to take on millions of enemy ships on a song suddenly find it difficult to run recon missions or a proper rescue operation. It's not possible that they've gone soft in the last 14 years that only a professional soldier is what goes for a proper job.
Well, they haven't run a total war against an unrelenting enemy for the last fifty years now, just sporadic scattered skirmishes and insurrections. Many of the current NUNS pilots have probably never even been in a real firefight before. All the veterans of the Unification Wars and the Space War with real operational experience would be either dead, retired, or bound to desk jobs by now.
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Old 2008-05-12, 14:20   Link #46
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Another thing to note is that the Macross fleets are ridiculously far apart from one another. Even if Macross 7 had seen tons of combat, that wouldn't help the UN Spacy forces in Macross Frontier at all. I think that each fleet can be thought of as separate countries in the sense that each is commanded and organized differently from the others. Furthermore, Ozma was in NUNS himself, but he doesn't have a very high opinion of them - he obviously knows something the audience doesn't know.
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Old 2008-05-12, 15:43   Link #47
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Maybe the UN Spacey has finally learned that singers are all you really need?

"Weapons? What do we need Weapons for? We have Nekki Basara!"
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Old 2008-05-12, 17:35   Link #48
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Also i wonder if they lost a lot of money from the VF-19 mass production line. Supposedly the VF-19 was supposed to become the next main style fighter of NUNS and yet we see the mass produced 171 instead .
Shoji Kawamori stated that VF-19s were too much of a 'hero' fighter, so he doesn't want conflicting interests.

Although in the 'canon', its indicated that the VF-19 was too damn expensive, and the VF-171 was easy to mass produce, easy to maintain and easy to handle.

Moreover, VF-19s would have been at least 20 years old by the events of Frontier. Pretty outdated, if you ask me.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-12, 17:48   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Shoji Kawamori stated that VF-19s were too much of a 'hero' fighter, so he doesn't want conflicting interests.

Although in the 'canon', its indicated that the VF-19 was too damn expensive, and the VF-171 was easy to mass produce, easy to maintain and easy to handle.

Moreover, VF-19s would have been at least 20 years old by the events of Frontier. Pretty outdated, if you ask me.

- Tak
That is one of the best part about Macross. The mechs are cool but doesn't overshadow the characters and the plot and doesn't make anyone into a one man army of beamspam.
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Old 2008-05-12, 18:03   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Shoji Kawamori stated that VF-19s were too much of a 'hero' fighter, so he doesn't want conflicting interests.

Although in the 'canon', its indicated that the VF-19 was too damn expensive, and the VF-171 was easy to mass produce, easy to maintain and easy to handle.

Moreover, VF-19s would have been at least 20 years old by the events of Frontier. Pretty outdated, if you ask me.

- Tak
I can sort of agree on the hero fighter but, but calling a 20 year old fighter "outdated" isn't necessarily true. Modern Fighter jet designs often have service lives of 30-40 years. A few random examples:

F-4 Phantom, Introduction 30th December 1960, "retired" to target drone service in 2001

F-15 Eagle, Introduction 9th January 1976, Still in service, planned to continue service until 2025.

F-14 Tomcat, Introduction September 1974, Retired September 2006

Conversely, Macross Variable Fighters seem to have shorter careers before being replaced by something else.

1st Generation
VF-1 Valkyrie - Production Began Nov 2008 - Production Ended March 2015

2nd Generation
VF-4 Lighting III - Production Began Feb 2012 - Production Ended 2022

3rd Generation
VF-5000 StarMirage - Production Began 2020 - Production Ended 2029
VF-9 Cutlass - Production Began 2023 - Production Ended 2029

4th Generation
VF-11 Thunderbolt - Production Began Dec 2030 - Production Ended ??? (Late 2040s likely?)
VF-14 Vampire - Production Began 2028 - Production Ended ???
VF-17 Nightmare - Production Began ??? (Late 30s? First prototype flights in 2035) - Production Ended ???

5th Generation
VF-19 Excalibur - Production Began 2041 - Production Ended ???
VF-22 Sturmvogel II - Production Began Dec 2042 - Production Ended ???


Now granted the Macross stats are manufacturing production runs, compared to service lifetimes of the USAF fighters. Most of those Variable fighters are likely still in service SOMEWHERE, whether in the Military or a colony militia or whatever (VF-5000 StarMirage were shown in use by the Zola Police force in 2045). And just like real life US fighters, I'm sure the older models have received modernization upgrades to avionics, engines, and other systems.

I'm sure a VF-19, with it's exceptional performance, could probably keep up, or at least hold it's own, with a VF-25 if it received a systems update. However, America and other modern nations update theirs fighters because it still has the same ones on hand, it isn't constantly shipping them off with colony fleets. As mentioned the VF-19 probably was a very expensive fighter, and it's easier to just build new fighters for your new colony fleets than to update older fighters.

I'm sure older Colony Fleets are still going around with updated versions of older VF fighters serving alongside whatever more modern fighters their factories may have produced during their voyage.


Wow, this was a lot more long-winded then I had intended it to be.
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Old 2008-05-12, 19:57   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
That is one of the best part about Macross. The mechs are cool but doesn't overshadow the characters and the plot and doesn't make anyone into a one man army of beamspam.
That is very true, and one reason why I appreciate Macross' emphasis of realism over Gundam, especially since I've grown quite weary of Gundam's hero-does-them-all motif. Make no mistake, I still love Gundam, but for Macross, its borderline obsession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Reverie
I can sort of agree on the hero fighter but, but calling a 20 year old fighter "outdated" isn't necessarily true. Modern Fighter jet designs often have service lives of 30-40 years. A few random examples:
You also note that the US was not engaged in a major war in the past 30 years (and no, the Gulf War or the War on Terror do not count) while facing an equally competitive adversary? Even conventional weaponry progressed relatively slowly during the Cold War, perhaps one of the reason why it was a Cold War. Nobody wanted it to be hot, so the Soviets and the US had their own thing, and all was good in a bipolar world.

That will definitely change in the near future, of course.

But, unlike World War II, where, in a span of 5+ years, the Germans had progressed from propeller-driven fighters to the mass production of jet interceptors. Or the United States, rolling out a new chassis almost every year. Of course, that was war, there were fierce competitors, and that was then.

The technical progression of Macross is like in-between World War II and the Cold War. While new fighters aren't produced every year (as in WWII), UN SPACY certainly doesn't have the luxury of sitting on their butts for the next 3 decades then decide what new toy they should bring to the public. You will note that the production span of VFs is usually around 10 years or less. Yeah, we've seen the VF-11 in action in Macross 7, but they've been relegated to a supportive role than an actual frontline fighter. Of course, we've also witnessed the VF-1J in action, but you know, Milia rules.

Although from a production point of view, we've already seen the YF/VF-19s in two consecutive Macross franchises, even Mr. Kawamori would be crying foul if we had to see it... again.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-12, 20:30   Link #52
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I though I was somewhat agreeing with your points, I'm not sure exactly what I was aiming for once I started writing all that.


Although I should point out that the VF-11 WAS the frontline fighter for Macross 7's fleet.
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Old 2008-05-12, 20:41   Link #53
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Although I should point out that the VF-11 WAS the frontline fighter for Macross 7's fleet.
That is true early on, thus I said "relegated to a supportive role". As the fight worsened, we begin to see a lot more of the VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22s in action. Some of the VF-11s were used to... for better or worse, carry speakers.

Max, notably, piloted a VF-22 near the end while how Basara hijacked a VF-19 remains a mystery to everyone.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-12, 20:54   Link #54
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Although from a production point of view, we've already seen the YF/VF-19s in two consecutive Macross franchises, even Mr. Kawamori would be crying foul if we had to see it... again.
I read somewhere that they were originally going to use the VF-19, but it just looked too similar to the VF-25 in the action shots, so they went with something else. It makes sense, so it's as good an explanation as I need.

In-universe, we can simply put it down to different fleets deciding to field different variable fighters. We already know that the laws aren't uniform between fleets, so it's not a very big stretch.
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Old 2008-05-12, 20:56   Link #55
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The military gave it to him (discretely) as part of Project M.

And no, right up until the end the VF-11 was the bread-and-butter fighter of the majority of the fleet. It was the elite squadrons going around in VF-17 Nightmares and eventually Emerald Force was given a trio of VF-19 Excaliburs. With Max and Miria obtaining a pair of VF-22s.

Even during Operation Stargazer (ep 44 of 49 eps) the majority of the "elite" assault force was flying VF-11s.
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Old 2008-05-12, 20:59   Link #56
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That is true early on, thus I said "relegated to a supportive role". As the fight worsened, we begin to see a lot more of the VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22s in action.

Max, notably, piloted a VF-22 near the end while how Basara hijacked a VF-19 remains a mystery to everyone.

- Tak
Didn't Rey gave him that VF-19.

More like an experiment for Operation M with a single pilot/singer in a Valkyrie.

Not to mention VF-19's are a hard sell for the manufacturer. WTF UN Spacy was considering making a AI fighter as their next mainline fighter.

They're a bunch of cheapskates.

Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy got screwed over.
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Old 2008-05-12, 20:59   Link #57
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Didn't Rey gave him that VF-19.

More like an experiment for Operation M with a single pilot/singer in a Valkyrie.

Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy got screwed over.
Yeah, and how Rey just 'handed' it to him remains a MYSTERY in itself. Milia was criticizing Basara's flying skills quite harshly, although I wondered why she didn't ask him anything about the VF-19. To Milia, Basara couldn't fly a glider even if his life depended on it.

But anyway, Macross 7 was silly. I mean, guitar for controls? Project M? Its not like they knew they were fighting an alien army that would respond to sound energy!

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I read somewhere that they were originally going to use the VF-19, but it just looked too similar to the VF-25 in the action shots, so they went with something else. It makes sense, so it's as good an explanation as I need.

In-universe, we can simply put it down to different fleets deciding to field different variable fighters. We already know that the laws aren't uniform between fleets, so it's not a very big stretch.
Well, SK basically stated himself he really did not want to put the VF-19 in Macross F because it would compete against the VF-25's status as the 'hero' fighter.

Regarding the in-universe explanation, while different fleet does practice different laws, I believe various categories of VF fighters are available to all the fleets. After all, Macross 7 had just about the same fighter composition as the world of Eden, and they were quite far from each other.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-12, 21:06   Link #58
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Yeah, and how Rey just 'handed' it to him remains a MYSTERY in itself. Milia was criticizing Basara's flying skills quite harshly, although I wondered why she didn't ask him anything about the VF-19. To Milia, Basara couldn't fly a glider even if his life depended on it.
Ray got it from the military. As part Project M, the military even takes it in (again discreetly) for maintenance at one point.

Quote:
But anyway, Macross 7 was silly. I mean, guitar for controls? Project M? Its not like they knew they were fighting an alien army that would respond to sound energy!
Project M may seem silly, but there were still LOTs of Zentraedi fleets around, and music had shown to work perfectly on them, so why not consider developing it further.
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Old 2008-05-12, 21:11   Link #59
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Project M may seem silly, but there were still LOTs of Zentraedi fleets around, and music had shown to work perfectly on them, so why not consider developing it further.
Because you can just shoot a speaker pod (like Basara did) and just broadcast music instead of playing it LIVE with a guitar for a cockpit.

That and given the fact that UN SPACY vessels can communicate with Zent vessels directly, Project M seems... well, pointless.

You know, they've done all that during Space War I.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-12, 21:18   Link #60
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Yeah, and how Rey just 'handed' it to him remains a MYSTERY in itself. Milia was criticizing Basara's flying skills quite harshly, although I wondered why she didn't ask him anything about the VF-19. To Milia, Basara couldn't fly a glider even if his life depended on it.

But anyway, Macross 7 was silly. I mean, guitar for controls? Project M? Its not like they knew they were fighting an alien army that would respond to sound energy!

- Tak
Well not to Gamlin, he thought it was some idiotic super secret project. Which he was correct. Sort of...

Nekki Basara can perform the G crunching qm-69 manuever without breaking a beat.

That said I'm waiting for confirmation on my suspicion that the mysterious Valkyrie and pilot , who will also attend Mihoshi academy.

Leon did say whether or not they will let the Vajra hear their songs which implies Macross Frontier has it's own version of Operation M.
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