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Old 2008-05-13, 22:44   Link #1101
Kang Seung Jae
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Suzaku's goal is to govern Area 11....yet Nunnally is the one taking over and in no way in hell is he going to backstab her.
No need to backstab: He can ask the Emperor to make him Governor of Area 11 when he becomes Knight of One.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:47   Link #1102
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Something just occurred to me.

Suzaku's goal is to govern Area 11....yet Nunnally is the one taking over and in no way in hell is he going to backstab her.

For the sake of the argument, let's guarantee that Nunnally's position is to stay if she proves herself to be a capable ruler (As Vallen pointed out, the Emperor is pretty apethetic so I doubt he'll go to the lengths of assassinating her later).

So is there any point to Suzaku becoming the Knight of One to govern Area 11? If Nunnally does a good job and stays then there's little point.

THough the thing that baffles me is how Nunnally/Suzaku argue about changing the world and they are using Japan to do it. Those poor people
But didn't Suzaku just use Nunnally for his own manipulative purposes when he was with Lelouch last episode? Does he really care for her and respect her when he does that random and illogical action?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Pretty sure it's Suzaku hates people dying. period.

He's never shown any joy in killing his own kind either.

When he was participating in the JLF operation he was casting doubt on himself to even fire on the JLF soldiers but it wasn't because they were japanese, it was because it was literally a massacre. Since we say Lelouch is a good person because he hesitates or admits its evil to murder people, we should give Suzaku some benefit on his side.
Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:48   Link #1103
Lowell1025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
THough the thing that baffles me is how Nunnally/Suzaku argue about changing the world and they are using Japan to do it. Those poor people
Well if in eps 3 they had a screencap that explained:
"Nunally and Suzaku was assigned to be governor of the whole Eastern Britania, they wont be appearing in this season. Please enjoy the rest of the show with Zero in Japan"

I believe all around the world plane tickets to the city where Sunrise is based would be sold out overnight, along with many requests to bring extra luggages carrying hardwood material
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:49   Link #1104
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."
In a dog eat dog world, no strength is a liability.


Consider whether Gandhi would have succeeded if it was Nazi Germany (an extreme example) that controlled India.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:50   Link #1105
Lowell1025
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I was talking about the viewers who are saying "I HATE SUZAKU SINCE HE IS A BLOODY BACKSTABBING TRAITOR WHO BETRAYS HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!", not the people in the anime.


Unlike the characters, we are allowed to have hindersight and judge based on what we know.
and then, may I ask your attitude towards those viewers that are saying"I HATE SUZAKU SINCE HE IS A BLOODY BACKSTABBING TRAITOR WHO BETRAYS HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!", ?
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:50   Link #1106
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
So is there any point to Suzaku becoming the Knight of One to govern Area 11? If Nunnally does a good job and stays then there's little point.
Maybe becoming the KoO is just his reserve plan.. Or he plans for them both to rule Japan side-by-side. Or it's possible that he's just using Nunnally and plans to relieve her of her "duty" of ruling japan after he becomes the KoO...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Pretty sure it's Suzaku hates people dying. period.
He's never shown any joy in killing his own kind either.
Yeah, in the picture drama, he says "If, on that day, I hadn't killed dad, this many people wouldn't have died." and he both says and shows aplenty of times in the first season how much he hates killing people. Not so much in season 2 though it would seem.. <_<.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:51   Link #1107
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
In a dog eat dog world, no strength is a liability.


Consider whether Gandhi would have succeeded if it was Nazi Germany (an extreme example) that controlled India.
So in your case, you are saying that Gandhi would resort to widespread violence? It's just not who Gandhi is.

If it was Nazi Germany, Gandhi would still advocate AND practice non-violence all the way to his death, successful or not.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:54   Link #1108
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
So in your case, you are saying that Gandhi would resort to widespread violence? It's just not who Gandhi is.

If it was Nazi Germany, Gandhi would still advocate AND practice non-violence all the way to his death, successful or not.
And Suzaku is not a "saint" like Gandhi. He is your regular soldier who feels guilt that he might have led Japan to be in its current state, and want to change it.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:56   Link #1109
SoldierOfDarkness
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Yeah, in the picture drama, he says "If, on that day, I hadn't killed dad, this many people wouldn't have died." and he both says and shows aplenty of times in the first season how much he hates killing people. Not so much in season 2 though it would seem.. <_<.
Nope he still hates it. He asks for the EEU soldiers to surrender. When they refuse he simply says, "How unfortunate." not "Yay yay yay kill kill kill kekekekekek."

Quote:
But didn't Suzaku just use Nunnally for his own manipulative purposes when he was with Lelouch last episode? Does he really care for her and respect her when he does that random and illogical action?
I'm still willing to bet that Nunnally is not only Lelouch's weakness but Suzaku's as well. He has always taken care of her or looked after her.

If there's someone to rein him in it's Nunnally now since Euphie's dead. Funny how the britannian princesses have their ways with these warriors.. I wouldn't be surprised near the end of the series it's Nunnally who calms Suzaku and forces him to reconcile with Lelouch or something similar(Big spectulation there).

Quote:
Maybe becoming the KoO is just his reserve plan.. Or he plans for them both to rule Japan side-by-side. Or it's possible that he's just using Nunnally and plans to relieve her of her "duty" of ruling japan after he becomes the KoO...
Or he plans to use Japan as a springboard to increase his power to help change the world. Regardless he needs a royal member there and Nunnally's all there is (Forget Schenzeil man we don't even know what he wants)

Quote:
Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."
I never said he was a pacifist. Like Lelouch he wants to end the fighting but like him they also admit that they will have to fight in order to achieve those means.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:57   Link #1110
orangejuicetang
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I'm pretty sure that Nunually volunteered to be governor. I don't think that Suzuku was like "Ah, the previous governor of Japan died to Lelouch, so I'm going to make the one person he can't kill governor and see what happens" Maybe the emperor could think of that, but I doubt it was Suzuku. And if Suzuku becomes Knight of One and Nunually is still governor, then I think Nunually will remain the governor, and all it means is that there is someone higher who would ultimately have the final say. Kind of like, she would become the vice-governor only still keeping the governor title, while Suzuku is just called the Knight of One. I also think that he hates people dying so he is willing to kill people because he feels that more people would die if he didn't. Actually, I think Gandhi once said that while he thinks that non-violence is the best possible solution, that violence was better than simply doing nothing. Or it might have been Martin Luther King Jr. Or someone else. I can't really remember so far back in my previous history classes, but I definately remember a really famous pacifist saying that.
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Old 2008-05-13, 22:58   Link #1111
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
And Suzaku is not a "saint" like Gandhi. He is your regular soldier who feels guilt that he might have led Japan to be in its current state, and want to change it.
But he wishes protection of all life on both sides. Not just the protection of his own people, but protection of the lives of the enemy.

And, when he killed his father, it wasn't like the Britannians were dying. Britannians pretty much easily blitzed through most of Japan. The ones who were dying were his own people. And then he killed his father.

It's like you hate all killing, so in order to stop killing, you help killers kill the victim.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:01   Link #1112
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
It's like you hate all killing, so in order to stop killing, you help killers kill the victim.
A contradiction that is necessary, especially for a soldier.


To say that one is immoral or evil for committing such a contradition is to not know the pains such individuals go through.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:02   Link #1113
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
A contradiction that is necessary, especially for a soldier.


To say that one is immoral or evil for committing such a contradition is to not know the pains such individuals go through.
I see, so if you help killers kill the victim, there will be no more victims left to kill and then there will be peace.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:05   Link #1114
thedonkiluminati
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
A contradiction that is necessary, especially for a soldier.


To say that one is immoral or evil for committing such a contradition is to not know the pains such individuals go through.

It was Suzaku's choice to join the Britainnian miltary. Nobody forced him to.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:06   Link #1115
Lowell1025
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
But he wishes protection of all life on both sides. Not just the protection of his own people, but protection of the lives of the enemy.

And, when he killed his father, it wasn't like the Britannians were dying. Britannians pretty much easily blitzed through most of Japan. The ones who were dying were his own people. And then he killed his father.

It's like you hate all killing, so in order to stop killing, you help killers kill the victim.
Okay here's two ways to look at the results of Suzaku's actions

Opinion1. when he killed his father Suzaku prevented more people dying from war, on both sides. More people would of died had war dragged on.

opinion 2 Suzaku killed his father, thus letting Britanians easily crush the remianing Japanese forced. His actions resulted in death of his fellow countrymen!!

I duno...both opinions seems right?
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:08   Link #1116
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
I see, so if you help killers kill the victim, there will be no more victims left to kill and then there will be peace.
Okay, that was a real low way of twisting words.

You're supposed to protect the lives of all people. If some terrorist/freedom fighter tries to cause mass murder, whether by bomb, poison gas, landslides, etc, will you just stand by while they do their work?

Unlike most people who don't know the pains of having to kill to protect, I've actually had to do skimishes in the DMZ during my Marine service. I'm not one to advocate killing, but when there is someone who is willing to kill your family, your friends, your people on a mass scale, I would pull the trigger, and I have done so. My hands are dirty with blood, but when we consider what could have happened, I try to live with it.

That's the dilemna I live with. Fortuately, I'm not in Suzaku's place, where I'm working for an occupying power. However, the overall principles are the same: sometimes you have to kill to prevent more killings.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:08   Link #1117
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
I'm pretty sure that Nunually volunteered to be governor.
Yes, though I wonder what made her do it? Personally I'm thinking that while she did indeed volunter, she was probably told a lot by Suzaku what a wonderful person Euphie was and what a wonderful ideal he and she had and so on... Which made her want to try and make it all a reality once she heard that the governor spot was free (well, that's part of it at the very least - but I'm sure there's more to it, considering that both Suzaku and the emperor should know that Nunnally out of all people is the worst possible opponent for Lelouch).

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
And if Suzuku becomes Knight of One and Nunually is still governor, then I think Nunually will remain the governor, and all it means is that there is someone higher who would ultimately have the final say. Kind of like, she would become the vice-governor only still keeping the governor title, while Suzuku is just called the Knight of One.
Well, probably so - though I wonder if the series will really get to the spot where Suzaku becomes the KoO while Nunnally is still the governor...
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:08   Link #1118
orangejuicetang
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"Gandhi steadfastly avoided violence towards his opponents. The non-violent activist, while willing to die, was never willing to kill. Gandhi pointed out three possible responses to oppression and injustice. One he described as the coward's way: to accept the wrong or run away from it. The second option was to stand and fight by force of arms. Gandhi said this was better than acceptance or running away. But the third way, he said, was best of all and required the most courage: to stand and fight solely by non-violent means." Found the lines I was looking for. However, when he killed his father, Japenese was dying. If his father survived, there probably wouldn't be any Japenese or at least significantly less since he was advocating resisting until the last Japenese had died. And this is not considering the bloody battleground the country becomes when the E.U. and Chinese Confederation decide to have a little three way war on the island with the Japenese caught in the middle. However, currently there is still a sizable amount of Japenese living, though maybe not in ideal conditions.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:11   Link #1119
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Okay, that was a real low way of twisting words.

You're supposed to protect the lives of all people. If some terrorist/freedom fighter tries to cause mass murder, whether by bomb, poison gas, landslides, etc, will you just stand by while they do their work?

Unlike most people who don't know the pains of having to kill to protect, I've actually had to do skimishes in the DMZ during my Marine service. I'm not one to advocate killing, but when there is someone who is willing to kill your family, your friends, your people on a mass scale, I would pull the trigger, and I have done so. My hands are dirty with blood, but when we consider what could have happened, I try to live with it.

That's the dilemna I live with. Fortuately, I'm not in Suzaku's place, where I'm working for an occupying power. However, the overall principles are the same: sometimes you have to kill to prevent more killings.
I'm proud of your service as a Marine in the DMZ. I'm actually Korean. Thank you for your service.

But, like I said, I know where your coming from, but it's not what I am trying to say.

Someone is trying to kill your family friends and people. You will pull the trigger to stop them you said. I would do the same even though I do not advocate the killing of anyone.

But, what if someone is trying to kill your family, friends, and people, and instead of shooting the enemy, you would pull the trigger on your own people???
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:12   Link #1120
DN24
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It was Suzaku's choice to join the Britainnian miltary. Nobody forced him to.
What else can he do to help? Join the JLF?? Japan resistance groups are hopeless fools until Zero appear and Zero never shows his face to Suzaku.If he know LL=Zero he might have joined the rebellion
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