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Old 2008-05-13, 23:14   Link #1121
thedonkiluminati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
What else can he do to help? Join the JLF?? Japan resistance groups are hopeless fools until Zero appear and Zero never shows his face to Suzaku.If he know LL=Zero he might have joined the rebellion
He could have done nothing. He didn't have to do anything.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:17   Link #1122
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
If he know LL=Zero he might have joined the rebellion
I'm not so certain of that - after all, suzaku is very stubborn about doing things "his" way, and since he already showed that he didn't approved of Zero's ways, there's very little chance that he'd have joined, so had Lelouch shown his face to Suzaku back then, he'd most likely have ended up placing himself into a bad situation (Suzaku would've known who he were and might've ended up arresting him a lot earlier then).
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:18   Link #1123
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
But, what if someone is trying to kill your family, friends, and people, and instead of shooting the enemy, you pull the trigger on your own people???
I don't see how shooting terrorists is the same as shooting your own people.


We can use the Japanese occupation of Korea to compare. While the Korean Resistence mainly focused on attacking only the military or high officials, the JLF and other rebels in CG are more like the Palestinians, using attacks on civilians as well as on the government/military.


That's where we see a major: When you have your own people using methods of mass murders against enemies and friends alike, it's better to stop the terrorists before they do more harm than good.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:19   Link #1124
orangejuicetang
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I think the situation would be more like one of your friends pissed off a powerful organazation and is now trying to kill your family and friends, but would lose interest if your friend died. Would you shoot your friend to save your family and other friends?
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:19   Link #1125
Lowell1025
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
That's the dilemna I live with. Fortuately, I'm not in Suzaku's place, where I'm working for an occupying power. However, the overall principles are the same: sometimes you have to kill to prevent more killings.
But have you ever wondered how that have come to be in the first place, and what is still causing it, and how one can do to cause change so that it won't happen again?
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:20   Link #1126
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Lowell1025 View Post
1. I imagnined bashings Suzaku dislikers would dish out if it is proven he planned it all along
Heh, it's true, bashers are annoying. Still, though, I think the idea of Suzaku planning his patricide adds a great deal of depth to his character, since children, even if they are often impulsive and self-centered, are also sometimes smarter than people give them credit for. Furthermore, Suzaku's value systems before meeting Lelouch, after meeting Lelouch, and then after his patricide have a lot of coherency and a sense of progression if you approach them with the assumption that he planned it.

Quote:
If you want my personal opinion on the matter, I'm at a stage where I try to refrain myself from judging others. It's another person's life, and if you reflect back on yourself, you'd notice times when you lost control and made mistake also. As the saying goes, "A true gentlemen can forgive all mistakes but the ones made by himself." Although I don't give a dang about gentlemen, I do believe in the rest. Unless I can't think of another way, I'd like to keep opinions on these matters open / undiscussed, and just look after my own.

While I can understand a bit as to why Suzaku killed his father, I'm no Suzaku. Although I lost them now, I had a very close and caring family. My relation with my dad is completely different and inevitably, I am biased towards Suzaku's action. The point here is, my feelings towards Suzaku's case will inevitably be based somewhat on my experiences and my feelings (to what extent can vary), no matter how well or reasonable the case is presented or how hard I try to be objective. This feeling is not something you can easily win over/turn aside with arguments and facts. The same thing goes for other people too. If you are truely empathetic and can understand that, then perphaps you can communicate with others without ending up having one feeling going up against another ( I see a lot of argument on this board ended up like this), but come to understand each other's position better instead, and perhaps learn more about the aspects of the issue you are discussing - ultimately, end up with a better judgment on the issue.
Heh. Come on now, objectivity isn't that hard to achieve. Why would you be biased towards or against Suzaku on the basis of your own family experiences, when its his own as portrayed by the authors that is to be assessed? If one can achieve the empathy to converse with other posters as to the right or wrongness of Suzaku, then surely one must also possess the empathy to see things from his point of view and refrain from judging him. It's almost a given that someone who hates Suzaku because they cannot empathise with him will also be unable to empathise with you enough to enrich your perceptions of him.

Although I guess it wasn't moral outrage on your part, so there isn't much left to discuss here.

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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Actually morally, Suzaku is better than Lelouch when it comes to accepted ethical standards. Lelouch is the one putting innocent lives in harm's way.

Suzaku is just, really really weird in his thought patterns for lack of a better description. He says things that contradict each other. He acts in a certain way that contradicts with his words. He tries to justify his actions, but you're left going like "huh?" after you hear his rationalization. And he doesn't even notice it.

It's not that Suzaku is an evil person. It is very easily arguable that Lelouch is much more evil compared to Suzaku.

But, Suzaku is just a really poorly made character. It's just kinda like Suzaku has split personalities, where different sides of him are just not aware of the others.

Is he a character that is willing to do whatever it takes to get what he wants or is he a character that hates that line of thought? He shows both ends of the spectrum that are in direct conflict with each other.

Is he a character that feels violence is so wrong that he will use violence to support those who first commit and continue violence? wth?

I don't necessarily hate Suzaku himself, I just don't like how they made him. And I like antagonists. It feels like they just thought an antagonist child-hood friend on the Empire's side would make a really cool character, but they built his character up so randomly and illogically.
:P Hm, not so fast. Plenty of people have already declared Suzaku evil and hateful for enabling a despotic empire to oppress his own people. Despite his 'antihero' status, the show's portrayal of Lelouch's character actually engages in a lot of pandering to 'accepted ethical standards'.

And really, I very much challenge the idea of Suzaku being a poorly written character. Beyond his contrasts and parallels with Lelouch, there are also quite a few nuances to Suzaku which are all his own. I've already noted the nuances in his personality as a child, where Suzaku was not Lelouch's equal as Suzaku admired his drive for independance and perseverance through tremendous tragedy. Suzaku also seems to see himself as somebody who has already walked Lelouch's path and knows what lays at the ends of it, which shows that he can understand Lelouch's way of thinking with some degree of certainty. His relationship with Euphemia also highlighted his previous hatred for himself and his belief that he was just not good enough, hammered into him from his childhood and reinforced by his failure to protect the Japanese people during the war.

As for his ideals, the two you highlighted are a bit of a misrepresentation. Suzaku's whole 'using the wrong means is worthless' spiel is really just a somewhat vague expression of his belief that 'Rules must be followed'. This is just a reflection of his belief that no human is so perfect that they are never wrong, so it is best to follow conventions because it is safe (maybe a cowardly principle, but you can see where he's coming from when the one time he acted above the rules set up for him as a child was when he killed his father and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, can't you?). It's not about whether the lives lost are worth it or anything, it's actually just about the chances of making a mistake.

Suzaku's other ideal, which you seem to be interpreting as 'violence is wrong', is actually limited to 'hurting innocents is wrong', same thing as Lelouch. For Suzaku though, rather than defining the 'innocent' as those who are weak, he considers them to be those who follow the rules. As such, although he's a nice enough guy to not want to kill in general, the only ones he feels it is his moral imperative to spare are those who aren't fighting against him.

Thinking about it that way, there aren't really too many contradictions at all, now are there?

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-05-13 at 23:34.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:24   Link #1127
Witacume
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Suzaku resolve and ideas are very grey so are some of Lelouch methods. Thats not what bother's me about him. The problem is that he sometimes blindly obeys orders. his fight with the EU he would kill people but when it come to massacre he would not take part of it but neither would he stop it. I can not stand a person that says he has the moral high ground then not follow through with his per say morals. You may not be pulling the trigger but the people you work for are. Your hands are just as bloody. yet he ignores this. I would at least make me somewhat understand him better if he at least felt some anguish instead he runs away from facing his problems.

So far what we have learn of Suzaku is that he is more of the same. He strives to the knight of one but what he doesn't take into account is that will the emperor even let him becomethe knight of one? He still has somewhat of a naive sense of Justice and thinking what he is doing is right. I rather watch LULU at least anguish what he has done rather than a person who runs away from his problems. Not saying what lulu doing is right but at least he is better to relate to. I believe the writers are portraying suzaku as such. One hint is that the knightmare he is riding is the Lancelot. The most hated knight of the round.

Edit: the only part of Suzaku i like is that he is so hate able! come on ever series needs one of those.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:25   Link #1128
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
I think the situation would be more like one of your friends pissed off a powerful organazation and is now trying to kill your family and friends, but would lose interest if your friend died. Would you shoot your friend to save your family and other friends?
1. How did the friend piss off the organization? By bombing their headquarters and killing innocent by-standers, by killing a leader, or by bothering their business?

2. Is the organization indiscriminatingly trying to kill my family and friends?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell1025 View Post
But have you ever wondered how that have come to be in the first place, and what is still causing it, and how one can do to cause change so that it won't happen again?
If I'm an outsider viewer (like what we are while watching Code Geass), and had the power to do everything my way (like the script writers), then yes, I would hve done something.

Unfortuately, I'm not in a position of power yet, nor do I have some superpower like the Geass, nor do I have enough influence to be a cool observer.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:26   Link #1129
dom33
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
But didn't Suzaku just use Nunnally for his own manipulative purposes when he was with Lelouch last episode? Does he really care for her and respect her when he does that random and illogical action?





Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."
he does seem to care for Nunally despite keeping her away from her reason for living... that makes as much sense as anything else he does.


as for violent pacifist that reminds me of gundam wing.
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Onizuka-GTO:yeah, great post WD, but also puzzled. if it's a race you see, okay then. but at the moment it's a one man race, with Suzuku doing timed laps against his personal best....
WhiteWings:To this day I don't know what the insanity behind the decision to release the first GSD ending. My God that was without a doubt the worst ending I had ever seen in my life in a anime series.
Blizzer: He already has special powers called super pheromone powers which makes him irresistable to Sekirei's in heat.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:27   Link #1130
tenken627
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I don't see how shooting terrorists is the same as shooting your own people.


We can use the Japanese occupation of Korea to compare. While the Korean Resistence mainly focused on attacking only the military or high officials, the JLF and other rebels in CG are more like the Palestinians, using attacks on civilians as well as on the government/military.


That's where we see a major: When you have your own people using methods of mass murders against enemies and friends alike, it's better to stop the terrorists before they do more harm than good.
Ok, do you really see the Order of Black Knights targeting civilians specifically, Japanese or Britannian? I don't remember seeing anyone ordering the killing of any civilians period in the series. They really are more like the Korean Resistance moreso than the Palestinians.

The Japanese civilians, Suzaku's people, love the Black Knights. The Britannian civilians fear the Black Knights, but that is mostly because the Britannian government has named them terrorists and enemies of the state moreso than any large killings of Britannian civilians. Many Britannian civilians are actually intrigued by the Black Knights.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:30   Link #1131
Witacume
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Originally Posted by dom33 View Post
he does seem to care for Nunally despite keeping her away from her reason for living... that makes as much sense as anything else he does.


as for violent pacifist that reminds me of gundam wing.
lol violent pacifist! well that's oxymoron. and there is no such thing. There is though a person who claims to be pacifist but is violent.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:30   Link #1132
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Ok, do you really see the Order of Black Knights targeting civilians specifically, Japanese or Britannian? I don't remember seeing anyone ordering the killing of any civilians period in the series. They really are more like the Korean Resistance moreso than the Palestinians.
I was mainly talking about JLF and other such organizations.

As for OoBK, Britannia never went into direct conflict with them until the SAR fiasco, although OoBK was "helping" JLF and other such organizations. The two even worked together during the Kyushu battle.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:38   Link #1133
tenken627
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

And really, I very much challenge the idea of Suzaku being a poorly written character. Beyond his contrasts and parallels with Lelouch, there are also quite a few nuances to Suzaku which are all his own.
Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for his ideals, the two you highlighted are a bit of a misrepresentation. Suzaku's whole 'using the wrong means is worthless' spiel is really just a somewhat vague expression of his belief that 'Rules must be followed'. This is just a reflection of his belief that no human is so perfect that they are never wrong, so it is best to follow conventions because it is safe (maybe a cowardly principle, but you can see where he's coming from when the one time he acted above the rules set up for him as a child was when he killed his father and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, can't you?). It's not about whether the lives lost are worth it or anything, it's actually just about the chances of making a mistake.

Suzaku's other ideal, which you seem to be interpreting as 'violence is wrong', is actually limited to 'hurting innocents is wrong', same thing as Lelouch. For Suzaku though, rather than defining the 'innocent' as those who are weak, he considers them to be those who follow the rules. As such, although he's a nice enough guy to not want to kill in general, the only ones he feels it is his moral imperative to spare are those who aren't fighting against him.
I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:43   Link #1134
Lowell1025
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Heh. Come on now, objectivity isn't that hard to achieve. Why would you be biased towards or against Suzaku on the basis of your own family experiences, when its his own as portrayed by the authors that is to be assessed? If one can achieve the empathy to converse with other posters as to the right or wrongness of Suzaku, then surely one must also possess the empathy to see things from his point of view and refrain from judging him. It's almost a given that someone who hates Suzaku because they cannot empathise with him will also be unable to empathise with you enough to enrich your perceptions of him.

Although I guess it wasn't moral outrage on your part, so there isn't much left to discuss here.
uhh....my biaseness have a level, and Human psyche are very complicated. They say that human can possess many different emotions at a time and frankly, what I feel towards this Suzaku character is mixed. The very "objective" part of me observes his reasons for doing such things and does feel sorry for having to killed his father that way, but there's another part of me, who's very intimate towards the father figure that dislikes Suzaku for killing his father. Have you ever being in situations when you know full well you shouldnt feel certain way but you just do, eventhough you can control your actions but deep down inside you still feel that way? Well that's the sort of situation I'm in right now.

I'm sorry to have to cut this discussion short but....I need sleep now. 1AM @_@
Maybe we can ponder about this some other time
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:43   Link #1135
Witacume
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.



I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.
/clap great analysis i vote for b
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:47   Link #1136
Lowell1025
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.



I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.
Just Before I go:

Perhaps we should engage in finding a statement that doesn't allow any instances of personal opinion/values before we go on and discuss about Suzaku
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:47   Link #1137
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.



I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.

I chose E) It's better to work with a power that isn't cruel enough to completely crush his people than it is to work with a group that attempts to do a futile war against the power while causing many civilian deathes.
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:54   Link #1138
DJ_RockmanX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell1025 View Post
Just Before I go:

Perhaps we should engage in finding a statement that doesn't allow any instances of personal opinion/values before we go on and discuss about Suzaku
Suzaku is a complicated son of a bitch. Just like Lulu.

He murdered his father under circumstances that have yet to be revealed, and he spent the greater part of his life afterward trying to justify that act.

In the process, Suzaku screws many of Lelouch's plans, which of course did not sit well with those who support the rebellion in the audience.

This is where most Suzaku hate begins and ends.

Then he found his pink haired princess, and decided to live his life for her. (I hate how corny this development was, but that's irrelevant.)

Then he lost his pink haired princess, and discovered that he has been fighting a war of ideals against his former best friend.

(This is where I actually began to respect Suzaku, because he threw away those useless rose tinted glasses from which he had been viewing the world.)

Then we reach R2, where Suzaku hate returned for reasons including screwing with Lelouch's plans again, and taking Nunnally away from Lelouch.

-------

I miss anything?
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:56   Link #1139
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I chose E) It's better to work with a power that isn't cruel enough to completely crush his people than it is to work with a group that attempts to do a futile war against the power while causing many civilian deathes.
So, using your analogy from before in the case of Korean Occupation, Suzaku would be like one of the many Koreans who sold out their Korean brethren to the Japanese, and then worked for the Japanese while they were out trying to conquer and oppress other lands just like Korea? (That's a very bad run on sentence. Sorry, I'm tired.)
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Old 2008-05-13, 23:58   Link #1140
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
So, using your analogy from before in the case of Korean Occupation, Suzaku would be like one of the many Koreans who sold out their Korean brethren to the Japanese, and then worked for the Japanese while they were out trying to conquer and oppress other lands just like Korea? (That's a very bad run on sentence. Sorry, I'm tired.)
Yes, although I consider Britannia to be MUCH kinder than the Japanese.

For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony.
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