AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-05-15, 09:57   Link #141
Deckker
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
I recall that a dual intake (air/space) fusion engine is used on VFs......

While they are packed with a lot of firepower, the general rule these days, you do not need armour on what you can't hit. VF are always speedy craft, speed is their main defense.
Deckker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 10:47   Link #142
Onizuka-GTO
Holy Beast ~Wuff!~
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Leeds, UK
Age: 31
Send a message via MSN to Onizuka-GTO Send a message via Skype™ to Onizuka-GTO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckker View Post
I recall that a dual intake (air/space) fusion engine is used on VFs......

While they are packed with a lot of firepower, the general rule these days, you do not need armour on what you can't hit. VF are always speedy craft, speed is their main defense.
Why have a compromise when you can have Speed AND Armour?


Have your cake and eat it too.

That's the Macross Way!

__________________
Onizuka-GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 12:21   Link #143
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Doesn't anybody find it ridiculous that the human capital gunships has to transform to a humanoid form before firing the main gun?

In Macross it's because the main gun conduits were missing so they had to improvise.

The only great merit of a humanoid configuration is the Daedalus attack.

Then comes in the New Macross class. Instead of a main gun connected to the shoulders it's a shot gun.

Now there's the mini-me Macross Quarter class. Which is more like a giant Valkyrie.

Not that these things are very manueverable in humanoid configuration. SDF Macross was just standing there.

Ditto with the New Macross class just it can better point and shoot now.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 12:28   Link #144
squaresphere
Macross Lifer!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
My only thought would be that the cannon needs to be away from the main body of the ship because of heat or EM discharge when firing. Of course attaching it to a hand would make that pretty moot :P.

Maybe it's due to energy usage, while in "roid" mode the energy that's used for engine thrust is diverted to the cannon. But then that could be counter by saying, "why would they need to be in roid mode for that".

Ok here's one that actually makes some sense. Having the cannon attached to an arm makes it easier to move in position for target acquisition. Basically, instead of having to maneuver the whole bulk of the ship each time they need to readjust aim, it's the lesser mass of the cannon and arm.
squaresphere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 12:38   Link #145
Cadorna
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Cadorna
and they can do the "Daidalos Atack" with the cannon now, it is like putting a gun in the mouth and fire
__________________
Cadorna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 13:08   Link #146
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Having the cannon attached to an arm makes it easier to move in position for target acquisition. Basically, instead of having to maneuver the whole bulk of the ship each time they need to readjust aim, it's the lesser mass of the cannon and arm.
If that's a concern, might as well go with a turreted main cannon. Otherwise, needing the added complexity of a transformation means spending extra time in battle. Time that they may not have.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 13:17   Link #147
Spitfire
Mr. Bushido
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
If that's a concern, might as well go with a turreted main cannon. Otherwise, needing the added complexity of a transformation means spending extra time in battle. Time that they may not have.
Considering the size of the cannons, I hardly think they could simply make it into a turrent-style gun. The tech and power involved in a Macross vessels main weapon means it has to be big.
__________________
Spitfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 13:21   Link #148
Sander RX
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Quote:
Asking "Why?" is akin to asking "why" The "Pentagon" was not deployed with it's forces.
Cause Pentagon cant turn into a giant robot.
Sander RX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 14:01   Link #149
Onizuka-GTO
Holy Beast ~Wuff!~
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Leeds, UK
Age: 31
Send a message via MSN to Onizuka-GTO Send a message via Skype™ to Onizuka-GTO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sander RX View Post
Cause Pentagon cant turn into a giant robot.
That's what they WANT you to think....




Quote:
Doesn't anybody find it ridiculous that the human capital gunships has to transform to a humanoid form before firing the main gun?
Yeah.

But i guess the designers of the "New Macross" Class had a change of heart.

After all, they too thought it wasn't necessary, hence the predecessor "Megaroad" Class.

I suppose when they order came though that they needed a "Battle Ready" Flagship to protect a fleet, they turned to the reassuring design of the SDF and Valkyries.

A.K.A Mankind's Saviour.

Hence why they can transform to the point that they even have "fingers" to pull a trigger on a weapon the size of a small ship.

But there are advantages to a separated Cannon, especially one the size of a ship, versus an integrated system.

Maintenance: It's far easier to service a ship-size weapon as a ship. m9ove it out to a spacedock. etc etc.

Design: It is far easier to devote an entire frame the size of a ship.... within a ship. Why be constrain to an exposed subsystem such as into an arm or backpack? Got more space and potential to devote an entire dedicated ship power plant to the weapon.

Battlefield Practicality: If the ship cannon is damage, just detached and grab another one. No need to worry about a shared power source. It can be used as a physical weapon in emergences, without fear that it will damage the commanding ship itself.

Plus nothing like seeing a giant robot flip one off at the enemy for massive moral boost.

:P
__________________
Onizuka-GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 14:27   Link #150
Sander RX
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Quote:
That's what they WANT you to think....
Damn the Patriots!
Quote:
Plus nothing like seeing a giant robot flip one off at the enemy for massive moral boost.
Dick-those evil aliens are eating our troops!
Harry-dont worry!We got TEH GIANT MACROSS-ROBOT!
Dick-but they got the Ideon!
Harry-yeah,we are fucked...
Point is,where will all the moral go if aliens have even bigger and tougher robots?
Sander RX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 14:29   Link #151
squaresphere
Macross Lifer!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
^ that's ridiculous as humanity will always have the coolest/most powerful mecha in the end, even if we have to send teeangers to hijack them :P
squaresphere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 14:30   Link #152
Tk3997
Loveable Jerk
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
Age: 28
Send a message via ICQ to Tk3997 Send a message via AIM to Tk3997 Send a message via MSN to Tk3997
Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Ok this is has been bothering me, what powers the Valkyries? I ask after seeing the Vajra use their seemingly abundant energy to make their energy conversion armor almost impenetrable.

It seems like increasing the energy output would be the best way to boost the defensive ability of the VF's without having to had heavier armor plates.
Valkyrie use fusion reactors though the type is unspecified (there are many) a cut away of an engine I saw though had a structure that looked rathertokamak’ish so I’d hazard a guess it’s a magnetic confinement type reactorthis make sense since this is the most well known of the reactor types.That said this doesn’t tell us muchaside from perhaps a maximum theoretical power density (which frankly the valks don’t even seem to be approaching) it’s pretty much impossible to gain much insight into the actual output of a reactor just by it’s type.

It also assumes that the reinforcing armor would scale indefinitely unlikely as it's probably tied to the strength of the armor it's reinforcing to begin with and since the VF needs to be light that armor is going to be limited as is the protection the machine can reasonably mount; never mind the need to cram all the transformation gear inside the thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Doesn't anybody find it ridiculous that the human capital gunships has to transform to a humanoid form before firing the main gun?

In Macross it's because the main gun conduits were missing so they had to improvise.

The only great merit of a humanoid configuration is the Daedalus attack.

Then comes in the New Macross class. Instead of a main gun connected to the shoulders it's a shot gun.

Now there's the mini-me Macross Quarter class. Which is more like a giant Valkyrie.

Not that these things are very manueverable in humanoid configuration. SDF Macross was just standing there.

Ditto with the New Macross class just it can better point and shoot now.
There's no logical excuse it's a moronic hold over that writers seem refuse to let go and again something Robotech acutally did better after the SDF-1 none of the gunships in Robotech EVER transformed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
Why have a compromise when you can have Speed AND Armour?


Have your cake and eat it too.

That's the Macross Way!

Hardly VFs are not that rugged they're often riddled by attacks that even a modern APC would likely shrug off. VF are very weakly armored as you'd expect since they're crammed full of transformation gear and need to be lightweight to maneuver well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
But there are advantages to a separated Cannon, especially one the size of a ship, versus an integrated system.
No they aren't the writers are just idiots or unthinking fanboys that seem to have forgotten the entire idea of transformation was an insane and desperate gambit and that every other space faring power ever has managed to mount extremely powerful beam weapons on massively less complex hulls and probably got better protection for the weapons.

This is "Rule of Cool" take to it's mos illogical and stupid extremes.

Quote:
Maintenance: It's far easier to service a ship-size weapon as a ship. m9ove it out to a spacedock. etc etc.
A modular mounting that could be slid out of the vessel would do the same thing. Further still this point is highly debatable in general which is easier and safer working on the cannons energy conduits in a short sleeve jump suit in a perhaps somewhat cramped crawl space or suiting up for a spacewalk?

Quote:
Design: It is far easier to devote an entire frame the size of a ship.... within a ship. Why be constrain to an exposed subsystem such as into an arm or backpack? Got more space and potential to devote an entire dedicated ship power plant to the weapon.
I'm not even sure what the hell you're arguing here the sane approach is to simply embed the weapon in the vessels hull as every other gunship ever has done. It's only "exposed" if the enemy has blasted his way through you're hull armor and is riddling the ship with weapons fire at which point you'd have other concerns... Acutally this is another reason putting it out on an arm like a gun is insane inside the ship any attack meant to damage the gun would have to come either from say dead ahead or penetrate the hull armor; when it's sitting out on the end of an arm you suddenly gain about a billion new vectors to attack and damage it from.

Quote:
Battlefield Practicality: If the ship cannon is damage, just detached and grab another one. No need to worry about a shared power source. It can be used as a physical weapon in emergences, without fear that it will damage the commanding ship itself.
They don't HAVE another one since the thing is HUGE entirely too huge to carry spares. As for the second part... The insanity of the idea of using a super long range bombardment particle beam cannon as a club in space combat defies easy description.
__________________



Tk3997 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 14:42   Link #153
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Ok lets look at the known gunships.

Spoiler for SDF-1 Macross:


Spoiler for Macross 7, Battle 7:


Spoiler for Macross 13:


Spoiler for SMS Macross Quarter:



Non-canon Macross ships

If the SDF connected with the space ships instead they would like this.

Spoiler for Do You Remember Love Macross:



Spoiler for Macross II Lovers Again, SDF-1 Macross:


Though the most alien looking is this one.

Spoiler for Macross II Lovers Again, Macross Cannon:
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 14:46   Link #154
squaresphere
Macross Lifer!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
... Yeah i'd have to agree the robot form is mostly for "bling", maybe MF will show us other wise but I highy doubt that.
squaresphere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 15:38   Link #155
Onizuka-GTO
Holy Beast ~Wuff!~
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Leeds, UK
Age: 31
Send a message via MSN to Onizuka-GTO Send a message via Skype™ to Onizuka-GTO
hehehe! FUN!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Valkyrie use fusion reactors though the type is unspecified (there are many) a cut away of an engine I saw though had a structure that looked rathertokamak’ish so I’d hazard a guess it’s a magnetic confinement type reactorthis make sense since this is the most well known of the reactor types.That said this doesn’t tell us muchaside from perhaps a maximum theoretical power density (which frankly the valks don’t even seem to be approaching) it’s pretty much impossible to gain much insight into the actual output of a reactor just by it’s type.
Not sure what your talking about. but what ever it is, it's meh



its thermonuclear, hence Fusion. plus its Protoculture, hence we don't really know much about it, so no point going into detail over it.

Quote:

It also assumes that the reinforcing armor would scale indefinitely unlikely as it's probably tied to the strength of the armor it's reinforcing to begin with and since the VF needs to be light that armor is going to be limited as is the protection the machine can reasonably mount; never mind the need to cram all the transformation gear inside the thing.
Well you see, armour in the Macross Universe is a funny thing, it is not only determined by the thickness, but also by the "power" it consumes.

Valkyrie chest plate armour from the Vf-1 era is equivalent to that of a traditional main Battle Tank.

The armour by it self is light, and is only activated when in battlroid form.

Light enough that it can FLOAT in sea water when it's turned off, as seen in Macross Zero.

Quote:
Hardly VFs are not that rugged they're often riddled by attacks that even a modern APC would likely shrug off.
Like Main Battle Tanks, the armour is designed to SURVIVE from a hit of at leased 120mm round. No one is delusional to think that the armour is PROOF against modern Armour piercing rounds.

Your assuming they are using circular 1990-2008 weapon technology, hence you think they are similar to APC.

I assume they are using 2059 circular weaponry and i think they would shrug off APC like paper.



Hence Valkyrie armour is INCREDIBLY tough, by our standard, but is the best they can do against advance weaponry of the future.



Quote:
There's no logical excuse it's a moronic hold over that writers seem refuse to let go and again something Robotech acutally did better after the SDF-1 none of the gunships in Robotech EVER transformed.



No they aren't the writers are just idiots or unthinking fanboys that seem to have forgotten the entire idea of transformation was an insane and desperate gambit and that every other space faring power ever has managed to mount extremely powerful beam weapons on massively less complex hulls and probably got better protection for the weapons.

This is "Rule of Cool" take to it's mos illogical and stupid extremes.
Dunno what you are saying, but even before the SDF came about, all protoculture ships were, as seen. SHIP form.

It was only by chance that the module fabrication of the ship, that made it possible that they could change form.

After Space War I they went back to conventional thinking.

why do you think we had NO OTHER transformable ship except the the original, New Macross and now Macross Quarter?

All others were ship form.

But obviously, having no transformable robot, then this series would be just another space opera without a name.

There are reasons why there is transformable ships, and it's a valid one. either nostalgia by humans who were saved from extinction from a vaguely humanoid form ship, to transformable planes design to fight GIANTS.


sure it's writers, but that is part of the Macross history. it's nothing "moronic" then having Gundams all over the place, that doesn't have any logical explanation as to why they have big robots.

I mean...why? do they have to fight against Giant Aliens too?



Quote:
A modular mounting that could be slid out of the vessel would do the same thing. Further still this point is highly debatable in general which is easier and safer working on the cannons energy conduits in a short sleeve jump suit in a perhaps somewhat cramped crawl space or suiting up for a spacewalk?
If you watched Macross 7, you will know that the New Macross class takes the "modular" approach and add one better.

When in ship form the Guncannon is for all practicality, a "module" part of the ship.

The only difference is that it has it's own separate system in terms of mobility and power. The guncannon actually feeds power off the main ship, this makes absolute practical macross sense. After all you are talking about a culture of paranoid with survivability. The mentality of redundancy is hammered into every fabric of life.

After all, you never know when a race of giants might drop by to wipe you off the face of your home planet, as unlikely as this might seem.

Quote:
I'm not even sure what the hell you're arguing here the sane approach is to simply embed the weapon in the vessels hull as every other gunship ever has done. It's only "exposed" if the enemy has blasted his way through you're hull armor and is riddling the ship with weapons fire at which point you'd have other concerns... Acutally this is another reason putting it out on an arm like a gun is insane inside the ship any attack meant to damage the gun would have to come either from say dead ahead or penetrate the hull armor; when it's sitting out on the end of an arm you suddenly gain about a billion new vectors to attack and damage it from.
but that's the thing, you have to "blast" your way though the hull of your ship, you have aim and damage the very ship, your putting all your eggs in one basket.

I'm not saying the enemy won't be doing that, but separating the main anti-ship weapon from the main ship, means the enemy must divert it's attack to TWO targets.

halving the enemy strength, the enemy will have to make a choice, destroy the guncannon? or the Ship controlling it? first? and if you survive the first assault will you have enough forces to attack the secondary one?

But if you concentrate your attack purely on the guncannon, risking irreplaceable forces to get past the firing ship, they will have a dilemma whether this will effectively disable these two threats?

It make sense in this context that the controlling ship will be heavily defend against anti-ship/fighter attacks and the enemy won't really know if there is another MASS anti-Ship weapon on the ship holding the guncannon?

Of course im talking of an enemy who has not encountered a battle flagship of a fleet before, but so far in the Macross universe, unless your facing enemies who are familiar with humans, all this counters in the battle of survival and tactics.

Quote:
They don't HAVE another one since the thing is HUGE entirely too huge to carry spares.
no spares? you have proof? they might have one hanging around, you don't know.

What you mean too big? The guncannon is about the same size as a medium frigate, the same ships you see around as escorts.

If they didn't, did you know the factory ships of the fleet are capable of building new frigates for the escort ships?

If they can build new ships of this size, what makes you think they cannon service or build a new gun cannon?

Seen the size of the city ships? the Island ships?

It's not impossible.

In the dangerous Macross universe with the power of the protoculture technology, don't underestimate the ability of factory units that are able to manufacture ships and equipment on a GIANT Scale.

Plus, if you don't have the resources, just call up a neighbouring fleet or colony planet and ask them to FOLD out a spare guncannon, i mean what are friends for if they can't spare you a guncannon ship or two?



Quote:
As for the second part... The insanity of the idea of using a super long range bombardment particle beam cannon as a club in space combat defies easy description.
Well, when your in a battle of survival, even soldiers will find there highly precise and manufactured ranged weapons a surprisingly good club.

like wise, if a Battloid flagship is involved in a battle that it finds itself in a desperate situation that NO ONE CAN IMAGINE (INVASION BY GIANTS???!!?! NNEEEVVEEEERR!!!)

Then swing around a guncannon the size of a spaceship doesn't sound far fetch,

oh, if you want an INSANE mental image, imagine it throwing a guncannon at the enemy, or even more funny, using it to hit asteroids.

BATTER UUUUP!


...or pitching them.


__________________
Onizuka-GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 15:45   Link #156
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
After Space War I they went back to conventional thinking.

why do you think we had NO OTHER transformable ship except the the original, New Macross and now Macross Quarter?

All others were ship form.
Aside from the cost, after Space War I, there were many ships in UN SPACY that were basically recycled Zent fleet vessels. There really wasn't a need to even build new ones except when a colonial expedition sometimes demand a flagship of sort.

Besides, you can't punch through capital ships without the SDF transforming, because that was pretty cleaver, and fun!

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-15 at 15:58.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 15:56   Link #157
ChronoReverse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
The New Macross Class (and presumably the Macross Quarter Class) doesn't actually need to transform to shoot the Macross Cannon. In fact, the Macross Cannon unit is self-contained and could even maneuver separate from the Battle section.

That didn't stop them from transforming every time they fired it in Macross 7 though =/
ChronoReverse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 19:44   Link #158
Tabris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 26
spoilers from episode 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabris View Post
Oh, during the intro scene it was explaining implants and whilst it was it showed what we saw last episode before Vajra intervention

Spoiler:
Tabris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 19:53   Link #159
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabris View Post
spoilers from episode 7
I guess those little green glowing orbs are islands. After seeing Frontier, you wouldn't think to have islands on their sides or upside down, but in space it really wouldn't matter would it?
Wesley84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-15, 22:13   Link #160
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Well big bad ships that can transform to a robot may be a form of psychological warfare.

Pray that your flagship weapon isn't turned against you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIE3MOAy5N0
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.