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Old 2008-05-15, 09:51   Link #21
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
That's how you have to do it.

So split main file at 00:21:09.851. Will give you two files, 001 (episode) and 002 (preview). You append 001 on the opening, then ending on 001, and 002 on the ending. Also I think you'll have to check "No chapters" when appending the files... or not. /me looks at Fluff
This is correct. Unfortunately it won't work with the BSS Kurenai release because the Vorbis audio CodecPrivate headers differ, making mkvmerge think the streams are incompatible and cannot be appended. Reencode the audio with your favorite Vorbis encoder and make sure you use the exact same settings for all the files and it should work, or reencode it to to a more cooperative format such as AAC and it will work.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-05-15, 11:55   Link #22
Alleluia_Cone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
This is correct. Unfortunately it won't work with the BSS Kurenai release because the Vorbis audio CodecPrivate headers differ, making mkvmerge think the streams are incompatible and cannot be appended. Reencode the audio with your favorite Vorbis encoder and make sure you use the exact same settings for all the files and it should work, or reencode it to to a more cooperative format such as AAC and it will work.
Thanks for helping out. I'm going to try your advice.

My other question is, how do I extract the chapter files?

Last edited by Alleluia_Cone; 2008-05-15 at 12:17.
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Old 2008-05-15, 13:29   Link #23
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone View Post
My other question is, how do I extract the chapter files?
1) install mkvtoolnix
2) fire up a commandline prompt
3) cd to the directory where the desired mkv file is
4) say
Code:
mkvextract chapters "input file.mkv" > "here be chapters.xml"
5) profit.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-05-15, 19:53   Link #24
SnowfairyX
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I'm having trouble getting episode 6 of Kurenai to display subs properly when I have both the opening and the ending in the same folder as the episode. When I placed the opening into a different folder but kept the episode and the ending together, the subs show up perfectly fine during the episode until the preview. Then when I separate the episode from the ending as well, the subs in the preview start working. I use MPC and I'm pretty sure I only have the CCCP downloaded, so what can I do to get the subs to work properly without simply separating the OP and the ED from the episode and watching them separately?
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Old 2008-05-16, 09:13   Link #25
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowfairyX View Post
I'm having trouble getting episode 6 of Kurenai to display subs properly when I have both the opening and the ending in the same folder as the episode. When I placed the opening into a different folder but kept the episode and the ending together, the subs show up perfectly fine during the episode until the preview. Then when I separate the episode from the ending as well, the subs in the preview start working. I use MPC and I'm pretty sure I only have the CCCP downloaded, so what can I do to get the subs to work properly without simply separating the OP and the ED from the episode and watching them separately?
Try resetting all CCCP settings, it could be some weirdness with the MPC internal subtitle renderer (IIRC it has problems with segment linked subtitles) and/or MKV demuxer. Also make sure you're using the MPC that came with CCCP.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-05-16, 15:22   Link #26
Alleluia_Cone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Reencode the audio with your favorite Vorbis encoder and make sure you use the exact same settings for all the files and it should work, or reencode it to to a more cooperative format such as AAC and it will work.
Do you suggest any particular encoder for Mac?
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Old 2008-05-16, 15:47   Link #27
TheFluff
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I would have suggested oggenc for OS X but it's extremely outdated. You can use OggDrop, or you might just be better off using the iTunes builtin AAC encoder.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-05-16, 18:37   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I understand your point, but that doesn't change the fact that we feel a little left out when it comes to these sort of things, simply because we made the choice not to bow down to Microsoft. We can't do much when it comes to companies who put a lot of money in producing games or other types of proprietary software which only work on Windows, but at least we have a channel of communication a little bit more open with the fansubbing world.

It's not that I'll get angry at the fansubbers that implement this, it's just that it's a natural frustration from being left out, that's all.
I don't want to come off sounding hostile, but since I can't stand the rampant elitism that exists within the linux community, it may turn out that way.

You seem to misunderstand something about this: you seem to think that Microsoft has some sort of advantage when it comes to the playing of these files. That is completely false. The mkv container format is an open standard - a standard that includes this kind of linked/segmented format.

It's hardly the fault of Microsoft, or the the majority that uses Windows OS, that Linux open source developers are incapable of doing something that Windows open source developers succeeded in doing some time ago. You're a Linux user, and Linux is about user made stuff, so I'd suggest you stop complaining about Microsoft and make a media player that can play these files.

As far as the "bowing down to Microsoft" aspect, I have a few points about that as well.

First, without endorsing such behavior, I think I should tell you that a huge percentage of copies of Windows are pirated. So, I'd hardly call that "bowing down."

Second, do you use open source hardware? Oh wait, you're "bowing down" to AMD/Intel, Nvidia/ATI, Corsair/Samsung, etc.

Third, for many of us the only choice open to us in our professional lives is to use Windows. You can't exactly say "well, I'd rather use a feature-poor program like milkshape because I think XSI and Microsoft are the devil."

Fourth, I think it's hilarious that Linux users tout the amazing open source programs they have, yet the instant something like this comes along (a feature that is not only completely unavailable on Linux, but also, to add salt to the wound, completely free and open source), the complaints are still about "teh eval windoze," rather than the lack of support for the feature from a Linux program.

And finally, it's just a complete ****hole move to call people out for "bowing down," simply because they prefer to use their favored OS. But I doubt you'll listen to this, because it's going to be drowned out by the sound of how revolutionary, trendy and coolguy you are for using an open source OS. I mean, seriously, FIGHT THE POWER BROTHER!
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Old 2008-05-16, 18:55   Link #29
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Umm... troll much?

Seriously, it was a harmless comment, or to put it better, an opinion. I never stated that fansubbers are some sort of devils for doing that, I was just voicing my frustration at the open source world for still not providing something like that. Microsoft is completely unrelated on the matter, it just happens to be the company that made the OS on which the proprietary Haali splitter (which I believe is the program that handles the linking) does the work. I can't code shit, unfortunately. However, I still can talk, I believe that right hasn't been taken away from me yet, or at least that's what I think.

If you feel like pointing this sort of issues to me, please use PMs. I don't feel like starting a flamewar in a completely unrelated topic.

However, I don't know if this will be drowned out by the sound of how resented your opinion looks. Perhaps Slashdot would be a better place for you?
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-05-16 at 19:06.
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Old 2008-05-16, 19:05   Link #30
Alleluia_Cone
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Thanks to everybody who helped on this board. After a lot of effort and god knows how many hours, I managed to splice together in one file Episode 6 of Kure-nai (as opposed to the 3 file, ordered chapters deal). Basically, I followed the advice on this board, with a couple of adjustments. To anybody wishing to accomplish the same feat, I'm here to help and will go into detail regarding my handy work if need be. The only provision is that I am a Mac user, so my advice would probably only be useful to Steve Jobs people as opposed to Bill Gates people; either way, I will try to help regardless.

Last edited by Alleluia_Cone; 2008-05-16 at 20:12.
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Old 2008-05-16, 21:32   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SohKai View Post
Just as a correction, BSS' Kurenai isn't the first to do this (unless the raw was like this?). SHS-FoSu have been doing this since the start of Alison and Lillia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
Another correction. That wasn't the first either... (Although I'm not sure myself where the first correction came from or who was first, which doesn't really matter anyway.)
Rabbit-Force's 'Kamizama Kazoku' used ordered chapters... must have been one of the first...
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Old 2008-05-16, 21:58   Link #32
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone View Post
Thanks to everybody who helped on this board. After a lot of effort and god knows how many hours, I managed to splice together in one file Episode 6 of Kure-nai (as opposed to the 3 file, ordered chapters deal). Basically, I followed the advice on this board, with a couple of adjustments. To anybody wishing to accomplish the same feat, I'm here to help and will go into detail regarding my handy work if need be. The only provision is that I am a Mac user, so my advice would probably only be useful to Steve Jobs people as opposed to Bill Gates people; either way, I will try to help regardless.
Did you end up with AAC or Vorbis audio? (Just curious.)
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-05-17, 00:04   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niwroc View Post
You seem to misunderstand something about this: you seem to think that Microsoft has some sort of advantage when it comes to the playing of these files. That is completely false. The mkv container format is an open standard - a standard that includes this kind of linked/segmented format.

It's hardly the fault of Microsoft, or the the majority that uses Windows OS, that Linux open source developers are incapable of doing something that Windows open source developers succeeded in doing some time ago. You're a Linux user, and Linux is about user made stuff, so I'd suggest you stop complaining about Microsoft and make a media player that can play these files.
You have completely misinterpreted what WanderingKnight said. Rather, you've responded to some of his words in order to run with an unrelated rant. Please, this is not the thread for it.

His frustration, and mine, is not blaming Microsoft for this. It is merely frustration that some one releasing something that, to date, only has support on a single media splitter which happens to only run on a single platform (it's not just the Linux people who are left out). It would be the same frustration that any Windows user would feel if a release only played properly in Linux or OS X.

No one in this thread is screaming or calling foul. It's just some disappointment and exasperation, and we recognize that eventually it will be working on our platforms and that the added pressure of these releases might speed things up.

And as long as I'm posting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SohKai View Post
Just as a correction, BSS' Kurenai isn't the first to do this (unless the raw was like this?). SHS-FoSu have been doing this since the start of Alison and Lillia.
Oh, I know that Kurenai wasn't the first. It just so happened that BSS released a Kurenai episode in this format right before this thread was created. I have no idea if that had anything to do with TheFluff's decision in posting, but considering the timing and the extreme benefit the format provides for this particular show, I figured it was the best example.
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Old 2008-05-17, 00:30   Link #34
Alleluia_Cone
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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Did you end up with AAC or Vorbis audio? (Just curious.)
AAC. I figured it would work better. Thanks for the help.
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Old 2008-05-17, 04:17   Link #35
Nicholi
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Lol whuts this? I thought TheFluff had already written a segment linking thread a long long time ago @_@.

I seriously hope the segment linking/ordered chapters/etc goodness catches on. It's been available within Haali's splitter for well over two years, probably more I have totally forgotten. No ones fault but the developer's for not implementing it by now. As someone already said, it's not going to get implemented all on its own if no one is using the feature at all. This seems to have been the case so far. I wouldn't expect mplayer/vlc to suddenly just add the feature before its usage increases, that train already left a long time ago. However if a larger number of files do start using it either one of the devs will find the need to write the code (because many of the files they are trying to play use it...this is how most opensource projects go imo, devs don't code things they don't use themselves typically) or some enthusiastic person who also really wants the feature added will write the code and send it to the mailing list. Then probably spend a few weeks fixing the codes to the devs liking before getting it applied :P.

Now that people actually know about the feature and how to use it (/me blames self for not writing some stupid guide years ago) the tendency to use it is likely to rise. You should be encouraging more people to use it so it has a higher chance of getting implemented. Otherwise you are just going to get stuck with the small growing percentage of files that have it, while you still don't have the feature implemented into your player. Also I seriously doubt you could find something which will "only play" on Linux. Typically code from these types of opensource projects are written in a platform-independent way. No one wants to use something which is hardcoded to a single platform, it has no way to grow that way. This feature is by no means platform dependent to Windows, it is simply that no one on your team (I lawled when I wrote that) has taken the time to do it :P. So pulling the "only plays on Windows" doesn't ring that true in this case. Also it's not some hidden closed proprietary standard that no one knows about thus no one can code anything without figuring out how to reverse engineer the process. Ask some people nicely for the feature and you might get it. Only reason it's not there now is because it requires....uggg effort.

Haali isn't exactly proprietary either, if you ask him nicely he will also show you things.

Possibly the most useful thing I find about segmented linking is the huge bitrate savings. Sometimes those OP/EDs can be killer, and are seriously just downgrading the quality of the files if you are unfortunately stuck to "archaic" standard file sizes. Of course this comes at the price of having only a single OP/ED to link to, which I'm sure angers the "real" fansubbers that enjoy credits which change every episode.

/me hopes to take the plunge into using linked OP/EDs in the future
I'm glad martino and a few others have started.

As to the whole segmented linking + Vorbis issues, I think if we put our heads together we could figure out what small bits to h4x in the Vorbis headers so the codecprivate data is similar, which is the only reason Haali's splitter isn't linking the segments. Afaik this should have no effect on the stream itself, consulting with Haali I'm sure would result in more answers. Since it will only abound with problems (even if just for the encoder) while he re-encodes the audio over and over until the codecprivate data matches with the OP/EDs he already released weeks ago. Until this simple "flaw" is worked around, I think it would be best that the encoders stick to using AAC. Since it is typically the codec used in almost all Japanese broadcasts anyways, if you are lucky enough to get a nice raw/TS.

Last edited by Nicholi; 2008-05-17 at 04:27.
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Old 2008-05-17, 11:24   Link #36
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Now that people actually know about the feature and how to use it (/me blames self for not writing some stupid guide years ago) the tendency to use it is likely to rise. You should be encouraging more people to use it so it has a higher chance of getting implemented. Otherwise you are just going to get stuck with the small growing percentage of files that have it, while you still don't have the feature implemented into your player. Also I seriously doubt you could find something which will "only play" on Linux. Typically code from these types of opensource projects are written in a platform-independent way. No one wants to use something which is hardcoded to a single platform, it has no way to grow that way. This feature is by no means platform dependent to Windows, it is simply that no one on your team (I lawled when I wrote that) has taken the time to do it :P. So pulling the "only plays on Windows" doesn't ring that true in this case. Also it's not some hidden closed proprietary standard that no one knows about thus no one can code anything without figuring out how to reverse engineer the process. Ask some people nicely for the feature and you might get it. Only reason it's not there now is because it requires....uggg effort.

Haali isn't exactly proprietary either, if you ask him nicely he will also show you things.
Hey, it's cool. I mean, I'm not blaming Windows or anything, it's just a bit sad that it's the only platform where this is available. I mean, I guess I could blame it on Haali not being open source, but meh. I guess the only way is mailing the ffdshow/mplayer guys (no thanks, I don't want to have anything to do with VLC ).

I also imagine that, based on the low complexity of the feature, that this is not really something too difficult of implementing.

(By the way, there seems to be a feature request dealing with this in the mplayer mailing list, but it's a year old and no one replied to it ).
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-05-17 at 12:08.
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Old 2008-05-17, 12:21   Link #37
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I've been talking to the mplayer guys at their IRC channel. They said none of the core developers is working on that feature at the moment, and that it's a lot of work, since there are a lot of potential security issues (accessing files behind the user's back), but that obviously it's a feature in the to-do list. In fact, they already implemented something similar with mov files, so it's not unlikely for this feature to arrive soon.

This quote does not give me too much hope, though:

Code:
14:09 < reimar> or to cut it short: I can understand why they did it and it may be the best that can be done, but the developer
                in me considers this just a horrible mis-feature which leads to very low motivation to do anything about it.
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Old 2008-05-17, 13:36   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
LNow that people actually know about the feature and how to use it (/me blames self for not writing some stupid guide years ago) the tendency to use it is likely to rise. You should be encouraging more people to use it so it has a higher chance of getting implemented. Otherwise you are just going to get stuck with the small growing percentage of files that have it, while you still don't have the feature implemented into your player. Also I seriously doubt you could find something which will "only play" on Linux. Typically code from these types of opensource projects are written in a platform-independent way. No one wants to use something which is hardcoded to a single platform, it has no way to grow that way. This feature is by no means platform dependent to Windows, it is simply that no one on your team (I lawled when I wrote that) has taken the time to do it :P. So pulling the "only plays on Windows" doesn't ring that true in this case. Also it's not some hidden closed proprietary standard that no one knows about thus no one can code anything without figuring out how to reverse engineer the process. Ask some people nicely for the feature and you might get it. Only reason it's not there now is because it requires....uggg effort.

Haali isn't exactly proprietary either, if you ask him nicely he will also show you things.
Just to make it clear, I don't think any one here believes that this feature is proprietary or coded to one platform. We're well aware that it's documented and only unavailable on our platforms because it simply hasn't been implemented yet. But for practical purposes, it's single platform at the moment (my hypothetical about something only playing properly on Linux was similarly oriented), meaning that releasing media in the format is kind of putting the cart ahead of the horse. HOWEVER, we're also aware that it's a useful feature and that since it's gone so long unimplemented elsewhere that some releases utilizing the feature now are a good thing in terms of helping speed development along.

I don't think we've been ambiguous or misleading in our posts, though. I think you'll find that's what we've actually said in our posts. But it's OK, we're used to prejudiced Windows users not paying attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I've been talking to the mplayer guys at their IRC channel. They said none of the core developers is working on that feature at the moment, and that it's a lot of work, since there are a lot of potential security issues (accessing files behind the user's back), but that obviously it's a feature in the to-do list. In fact, they already implemented something similar with mov files, so it's not unlikely for this feature to arrive soon.

This quote does not give me too much hope, though:

Code:
14:09 < reimar> or to cut it short: I can understand why they did it and it may be the best that can be done, but the developer
                in me considers this just a horrible mis-feature which leads to very low motivation to do anything about it.
Thanks for checking into it with them!

It's really good to know that they're aware of it. I get the feeling that they just recently made it a priority and had previously hoped that the issue would simply never come up.

Now the only question is how long it will take to make it to a release version. I'm not so averted to compiling from subversion on Linux, but on OS X it's a pain and I'd rather use a pre-built official release.
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Old 2008-05-17, 13:41   Link #39
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They also suggested me a (not very pretty) workaround: Telling mplayer which chapters from which files to play. Doing it manually is a pain in the ass, but if it were to be integrated with a GUI like smplayer, then it would be certainly easier. It's not exactly a seamless workaround (mplayer would be opening and closing the files instead of integrating them) but if it could be made an automatic feature via a GUI, it could take care of the most annoying problem without too much hacking around. I suppose a plugin could be written--but then again, I suck at coding and I wouldn't like to offer myself for the job. If no one wants to do it, I guess I'll have to play around with whatever graphical API smplayer uses (is it Qt? I don't use smplayer, I use gmplayer, but the latter is not maintained).

Then again, it'd depend on standardization from the fansubbers who implement this. Not every opening is the first chapter in all files, and not every ending is the last one. I guess that could be taken care of by conveniently labeling the chapters in a standard manner.
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Old 2008-05-17, 16:13   Link #40
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I've been talking to the mplayer guys at their IRC channel. They said none of the core developers is working on that feature at the moment, and that it's a lot of work, since there are a lot of potential security issues (accessing files behind the user's back), but that obviously it's a feature in the to-do list. In fact, they already implemented something similar with mov files, so it's not unlikely for this feature to arrive soon.

This quote does not give me too much hope, though:

Code:
14:09 < reimar> or to cut it short: I can understand why they did it and it may be the best that can be done, but the developer
                in me considers this just a horrible mis-feature which leads to very low motivation to do anything about it.
This seems to be the case. After browsing through mplayer/ffmpeg-devel mailing list the last time MKV chapter support was mentioned was almost 5 months ago for mplayer. Right now they are adding mkv chapter support into ffmpeg, but are ignoring some important bits like editions.

Interested developers = things get done. None are interested or will be interested in the nearby future if they think no one is using the feature. Either you need to start killing the people who are using it and know about it :3 (so it doesn't proliferate anymore), or encourage its use so new developers or old ones finally get the motivation to work on it. Opensource software is definitely slow moving at times but if the demand for such a feature is that high I'm sure their concerns about writing "hacks" instead of good modular code which works in all situations can be alleviated. It's either do you want the code within 6 months or god knows how many years @_@. Just mildly browse some of those threads I linked, as of current they believe no one is using the things we are talking about. Of course they are not going to waste their free time coding something which they believe is going to have almost no impact whatsoever. If you tell people to not use the feature in their MKVs it only makes the possibility of implementation even less reliable than it is now. This is not something where you are going to get your horse before your cart on *nix.

IMO, the developers are going to continue to be disinterested because of the low number of files which use it, and also of course the "ugg...work" involved. And as explained it will be a fair amount of work. So if you enjoy having a small number of files which don't link, I guess you can continue saying you'd rather have people not switch to segmented linking. But what does that do for all the files which are using it, and the people already deadset in using it? I can only see this number as increasing as information regarding its usage becomes more freely available and well known....not decreasing.

Here is Haali's ancient unveiling of Ordered Chapters and Linked Segments. Long time ago.

Last edited by Nicholi; 2008-05-17 at 16:27.
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