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Old 2008-04-07, 11:32   Link #141
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
We are not talking about a technique that you don't need to use or need to hide. We are talking about a bloodline ability that makes you what you are. And, you are saying, in the history of Senju, all ninjas that carried that ability were foolish enough to not use it and die by it. So we haven't heard anyone like that. Right now, I am not in a mood to dream, so I will leave that to you.
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Ha, What I like is how you twisted my point to a degree they become new points; quote me where I said that they did not needed to use or they needed hide their ability. I did not say that or even remotely implied it. I guess its your inability to grasp what you are been told and hence need a way to invent thing out of the blue and appoint them the people you are quoting.

I’ll quote myself once again:

“And what make you think that Shodai was the only Mokuton user in the entire History? do you have any fact to back up your speculation?”

“The Absence of information does not means that it doesn't exist/”

It seems to me you were just looking for a way to go around my post and not respond to them correctly. Thing is, you are claiming that Shodai has been the only Mokuton user in history, common sense is against that, but is not that, you have your own right to claim it is like that, however there is no fact that either denies this or agrees with this.

Basically the reason you are using to believe that Shodai was the only Mokuton user is based on nothing,your logic is simple, ”I haven’t heard about another Mokuton user from the Senjuu clan, hence no one else had It”. Let me rearrange a little your words so you can see what your logic implies then, it sounds something like “I haven’t been told about another MS user from the Uchiha clan of old, so there were no other MS users”.

I gladly have explained to you how information from the Manga point out otherwise, and also explain to you, how something that has not been shown doesn’t automatically means it can’t happen, as I gave you the Yamato example, and the Rasengan Example (which you conveniently decided to overlook).

As HiroInazuma said the where called the Senjuu of the forest, its very possible they were called like that because it was a prominent ability inside the Clan.
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Old 2008-04-07, 15:56   Link #142
Fipskuul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Ha, What I like is how you twisted my point to a degree they become new points; quote me where I said that they did not needed to use or they needed hide their ability. I did not say that or even remotely implied it. I guess its your inability to grasp what you are been told and hence need a way to invent thing out of the blue and appoint them the people you are quoting.
Since when my opinion became a twisted representation of your point! It was the example that I had given to show the difference between Rasengan and Mokuton.

Quote:
Iíll quote myself once again:

ďAnd what make you think that Shodai was the only Mokuton user in the entire History? do you have any fact to back up your speculation?Ē

ďThe Absence of information does not means that it doesn't exist/Ē
You can quote yourself as much as you like, it does not change what we currently have. The absence of information here is not a very valid argument. We are not talking about a mere technique. It is like, Uchihas hiding Sharingan!

Quote:
It seems to me you were just looking for a way to go around my post and not respond to them correctly. Thing is, you are claiming that Shodai has been the only Mokuton user in history, common sense is against that, but is not that, you have your own right to claim it is like that, however there is no fact that either denies this or agrees with this.
I am not claiming. That is what the story has been implying(jutsus related to Shodai are named with him been taking into account, not a general naming; Orochimaru referring to Mokuton's uniqueness, the crystal used by Shodai to control beats being associated with him only). And, that means, not me, but you, are the person who is twisting the information we have to create scenarios fitting your desires.

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Basically the reason you are using to believe that Shodai was the only Mokuton user is based on nothing,your logic is simple, ĒI havenít heard about another Mokuton user from the Senjuu clan, hence no one else had ItĒ. Let me rearrange a little your words so you can see what your logic implies then, it sounds something like ďI havenít been told about another MS user from the Uchiha clan of old, so there were no other MS usersĒ.
Too bad, you need to find a better example. We are told that there were other MS users. So, try again!
Quote:
I gladly have explained to you how information from the Manga point out otherwise, and also explain to you, how something that has not been shown doesnít automatically means it canít happen, as I gave you the Yamato example, and the Rasengan Example (which you conveniently decided to overlook).
And, as I implied in my previous post, Rasengan example is not a good example. Hiding a technique and a bloodline ability are two different things. You can hide the fact that you have Chidori whatever, but, you cannot hide the fact that you have Sharingan. Am I clear enough?
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Old 2008-04-07, 17:05   Link #143
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Since when my opinion became a twisted representation of your point! It was the example that I had given to show the difference between Rasengan and Mokuton.
No it is not, Once again, you talked about how I implied The Senjuu clan was hiding their ability, whereas I only said that just because you haven’t been told of another person not having this ability doesn’t mean this cant be possible, as I used example on how information that its not given by the author, does not necessarily refer to someone hiding it or that it is not possible for it to exist.

Quote:
You can quote yourself as much as you like, it does not change what we currently have. The absence of information here is not a very valid argument. We are not talking about a mere technique. It is like, Uchihas hiding Sharingan!
No,we are not talking about a mere technique, yet we are talking about that the only named character in the story who has it and has bearing within the story, if the author doesn’t provide you with another one, it is no indication that there were no other, it is an indication of information that could be or either one or the other.

Quote:
I am not claiming. That is what the story has been implying(jutsus related to Shodai are named with him been taking into account, not a general naming; Orochimaru referring to Mokuton's uniqueness, the crystal used by Shodai to control beats being associated with him only). And, that means, not me, but you, are the person who is twisting the information we have to create scenarios fitting your desires.
The story has not implied that Shodai was the only one that could do this since Yamato has been introduced, and even less when a whole clan of Shodai was introduced. Take in consideration that the Senjuu clan was introduced some 6 chapters ago and only been talked about superfically in just one chapter we really Don’t know nothing about them.

And The ability Mokuton been associated to just Shodaime is precisely what I’m talking about, the partiality of information, just like before and to some point now, They refered to Tsunade’s and Sakura strength as Tsunade’s strength, does this means Tsunade it’s the only one that could do this? Shodai been the figure that its refer when its talked about Mokuton, is only made as a reference so the reader can have an Idea of what the author is referring to.

While, from your Point of View it seems that the author is implying that Shodai was the only one, as I said before, there is no grounded fact you could use to claim with a 100% certainty Shodai was the only mokuton user in history. To be more precise also, the fact that Mokuton reffer to a KG, only proves further the existence of others with the same abbility.

Once gain, to stop my need for info, Quote manga chapter where it was said that the only Senju clan member that had Mokuton was Shodaime.

Quote:
Too bad, you need to find a better example. We are told that there were other MS users. So, try again!
Uchiha clan of old, when Itachi explained the History of the uchihas, in nowhere he mentions other MS user apart form Madara and His brother. Itachi father could had been referring to Just to Madara and his Brother. To make the question ore interesting, give the name of another MS user besides Kakashi, Madara, his Brother, and Itachi, failing to provide this means (by your logic) no other MS user existed.

Quote:
And, as I implied in my previous post, Rasengan example is not a good example. Hiding a technique and a bloodline ability are two different things. You can hide the fact that you have Chidori whatever, but, you cannot hide the fact that you have Sharingan. Am I clear enough?
It seems you are lost with the example here, it doesn’t have anything to do within the story, it has to do with the story as its written by the Author, as it was my observations to you so you can at least comprehend a little, yet you seem to be so stubborn to get the idea here.

Rasengan example is the perfect example here, The author creates a Quote in the manga that only puts 2 person that can use rasengan, but actually Kakashi was another user, is not that Kakashi was hiding the ability (yeah, I would like you to show me where it was stated that Kakashi was hiding Rasengan) it just that the author decided to introduce this element afterwards. this is the same as many info that was stated until some time passed.

Now I ask you, are you Kishimoto to determine that The only person from the Senjuu clan that had Mokuton was Shodai? tell me, is there any Quote in the entire Manga that even remotely hint that the only Senjuu clan member that used Mokuton was Shodai?

NO there isn’t, so, this still stand as Shodai could had been the only Mokuton user in History as well as he could had been one of many users in the history of Naruto universe.

And BTW, Yamato can hide the fact that he use Mokuton, so a Shairgan user, I don’t know what the heck you are trying to do here, when even Hakus mother could hide that from his husband trough years.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2008-04-07 at 17:32.
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Old 2008-04-07, 20:14   Link #144
Fipskuul
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
No it is not, Once again, you talked about how I implied The Senjuu clan was hiding their ability, whereas I only said that just because you havenít been told of another person not having this ability doesnít mean this cant be possible, as I used example on how information that its not given by the author, does not necessarily refer to someone hiding it or that it is not possible for it to exist.
Do you want me to buy a glasses or if you have can you please use yours while reading my post? I think any further explanation will be a futile attempt for me unless you put more effort in reading...
Quote:
No,we are not talking about a mere technique, yet we are talking about that the only named character in the story who has it and has bearing within the story, if the author doesnít provide you with another one, it is no indication that there were no other, it is an indication of information that could be or either one or the other.
We know Shodai was the only character who had it (excluding Yamato). And, we should know, a character like him, and the jutsus he used would be known by the others inside the story (at least someone like Sakura, who went through whatever documents she found). If those characters does not tell me what you are implying why should I take in your opinion as the pill to cure all!

Quote:
The story has not implied that Shodai was the only one that could do this since Yamato has been introduced, and even less when a whole clan of Shodai was introduced. Take in consideration that the Senjuu clan was introduced some 6 chapters ago and only been talked about superfically in just one chapter we really Donít know nothing about them.
Forget about the Senju clan. And tell me about the bloodline. A bloodline that has been around for how many chapters, 75% of the manga. So, where are the parts that support your arguments? Other then there should be like Kyuubi should be created by Sharingan!
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And The ability Mokuton been associated to just Shodaime is precisely what Iím talking about, the partiality of information, just like before and to some point now, They refered to Tsunadeís and Sakura strength as Tsunadeís strength, does this means Tsunade itís the only one that could do this? Shodai been the figure that its refer when its talked about Mokuton, is only made as a reference so the reader can have an Idea of what the author is referring to.
Again, you are giving examples that are pointing to techniques not bloodline abilities.
Quote:
While, from your Point of View it seems that the author is implying that Shodai was the only one, as I said before, there is no grounded fact you could use to claim with a 100% certainty Shodai was the only mokuton user in history. To be more precise also, the fact that Mokuton reffer to a KG, only proves further the existence of others with the same abbility.
I don't think I have ever said that it is a fact. Cause we all know, even if I say for a fact right now, Kishi would create something out of his nonthinking bulky part to reach whatever result he desires regardless of its conflict within the story.

And, at the end you are suggesting something under the title fact (if you use proof that is what it should suggests). Since you are so hooked up on the trivial facts, please tell us, how many have developed MS before Madara? According to you, MS's existence proves that it should be developed in the history by other people carrying Uchiha blood. Is this true? Right now, no. And as long as Kishi uses his thinking body part to write story, this will continue to stay like that.

Quote:
Once gain, to stop my need for info, Quote manga chapter where it was said that the only Senju clan member that had Mokuton was Shodaime.
I already gave some examples that imply that, like what Oro said about the ability, like what Sakura said about it, etc.

Quote:
Uchiha clan of old, when Itachi explained the History of the uchihas, in nowhere he mentions other MS user apart form Madara and His brother. Itachi father could had been referring to Just to Madara and his Brother. To make the question ore interesting, give the name of another MS user besides Kakashi, Madara, his Brother, and Itachi, failing to provide this means (by your logic) no other MS user existed.
Just curious, what do you understand if the story tells you that Madara was the first to awaken MS? That means, you already have the information on who had MS. No need for me to create some names to satisfy your curiosity.
Quote:
It seems you are lost with the example here, it doesnít have anything to do within the story, it has to do with the story as its written by the Author, as it was my observations to you so you can at least comprehend a little, yet you seem to be so stubborn to get the idea here.
Comprehension comes with understanding. And, if the understanding levels do not match, you cannot expect full comprehension. Here, this is what is happening. And sorry to break your heart but, you are not the author. So, your foreseeing ability is as good as any other reader.

Quote:
Rasengan example is the perfect example here, The author creates a Quote in the manga that only puts 2 person that can use rasengan, but actually Kakashi was another user, is not that Kakashi was hiding the ability (yeah, I would like you to show me where it was stated that Kakashi was hiding Rasengan) it just that the author decided to introduce this element afterwards.
I guess I won't succeed to ever make you understand the difference between a regular technique and a bloodline ability. Anyways, nothing can be done at this point, it seems. So, as an answer to your question, till the point Kakashi showed Rasengan, according to the story, there were only two who have ever used Rasengan. Saying only two before Naruto had used that would not conflict with the story. On the opposite, it was what the story had suggested for you to believe.

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Now I ask you, are you Kishimoto to determine that The only person from the Senjuu clan that had Mokuton was Shodai? tell me, is there any Quote in the entire Manga that even remotely hint that the only Senjuu clan member that used Mokuton was Shodai?
The same question, again! And, just to make things straight so that I can safely ignore any similar questions in the future, I am not Kishimoto. I have never been Kishimoto. And I will never be Kishimoto.

Quote:
And BTW, Yamato can hide the fact that he use Mokuton, so a Shairgan user, I donít know what the heck you are trying to do here, when even Hakus mother could hide that from his husband trough years.
It is too late to make you see the difference. So, I am leaving you with your own thoughts, as it seems, for you, the only opinion to better yours would only be yours. What can I say, my regards to Kishimoto the Rurik version!
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Old 2008-04-07, 21:29   Link #145
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Do you want me to buy a glasses or if you have can you please use yours while reading my post? I think any further explanation will be a futile attempt for me unless you put more effort in reading...
First I think you should settle down, as your post is beginning to talk more about the poster and not about his post.

Either way, I liked have you just decided to twist my opinion for your sake, I call that or either lack or understanding or convenient understanding. While I wont try to correct you again and again, I hope you do read better what you are been told.

Quote:
We know Shodai was the only character who had it (excluding Yamato). And, we should know, a character like him, and the jutsus he used would be known by the others inside the story (at least someone like Sakura, who went through whatever documents she found). If those characters does not tell me what you are implying why should I take in your opinion as the pill to cure all!
Yeah and so was this info that we should had know about it:

-Shodai been said that the only character that could use Mokuton.
-Rasengan could only be performed by Yondaime and Jiriaya.
-Kage Bushin abilities are to create exact clones of the user (I personally like this one, a Jutsu that had 320 chapters working in an specific way).
-Rasengan is a complete jutsu.
-Orochimaru left Akatsuki recently.
-Itachi single-handedly slaughters the Uchihas.
-Tobi was killed in the explosion with Deidara.


This is a list of info that came from the top of my head, and I could go on and on telling you things and how they were before but it was later or either expanded or updated

Ill ask you once again: where is the rule that state that shodaime is the only user of Mokuton in the senjuu clan?

And take notice, Im not trying to convince you to believe in my opinion, Long ago I stop debating to convince the poster that Im debating with, so Im not trying for you o take my opinion.

Quote:
Forget about the Senju clan. And tell me about the bloodline. A bloodline that has been around for how many chapters, 75% of the manga. So, where are the parts that support your arguments? Other then there should be like Kyuubi should be created by Sharingan!
It doesn’t matter if the bloodline has been present since the first chapter until today, the point here is that since the Senjuu clan was introduced nothing has either proved or disproved the existence of other Mokuton user.

And forget about the Senjuu? Yeah you wish, Here it is, Kishimoto has introduced countless clan in the series, yet the only clan that was named after the Mokuton, only had one user that could used such ability?

I mean, have you noticed that each clan had unique abilities present in more than one person? Is not as Shikamaru is the only Shadow binding user, or Neeji the only Byakugan user, or Ino the only user of Mind Control Jutsu, Or Chouuji the only user of Multizised Jutsu, and on and on, So why It has to be the exception with Shodai? Because you say so? Because you don’t like that?

Further more, You are even creating a little contradiction, You are suggesting then that the evolution decided to begin the ability with shodai, that he could be the first, but he also was the last. but your implication is as farfetched as to say, well as you are implying sine some time now, Apart from Itachi, Madara his brother and Kakshi, no other one had the MS.

Quote:
Again, you are giving examples that are pointing to techniques not bloodline abilities.
If you are going to debate, then stop discarding quotes that you just can’t answer or just proves your point of view incorrect.

This is not about if its not or it is bloodline ability, you are trying to use this shield, but for the sake of what the story is, there are similar in every way.

You mentioned that just because “jutsus related to Shodai are named with him been taking into account” (you did not say bloodline ability) then this is an indicator of SHodai been the only user, and this point is disproved because the same type of wording has been used before, this is about use of semantic and how you are discarding this.

In general, just because a Jutsu is called “shodaime Jutsus” doesn’t make him the only capable person, it only make him as a point of reference from the author to the readers. The example of “Tsunade strength” fits perfectly, as it was used to describe when sakura did it the first time, as it’s the same idea when it is used for Shodai, as when yamato used it, they used Shodai as the point of reference.

This is basic writing to guide 10 years old, The author is chapter 290 is not going to say, “Yamato is using the Jutsu used by the Senjuju clan, or by Jim senjuu”, for the simple reason he is not going to reference something he has not introduced yet. But even so, by the time Yamato performed the Mokuton, the senjuu clan did existed within universe.

And then, wasn’t it directly stated that Shodaime was the only Mokuton user, so what the heck is Yamato doing? Is what I’ve been explaining, yet you fail to understand: expand of idea, change of information.

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I don't think I have ever said that it is a fact.
And then why You even bother the debate? I repeated many times that your scenario could be possible, I just don’t buy that scenario, given recent info from the manga pinpoints towards more people with the same ability.

Quote:
And, at the end you are suggesting something under the title fact (if you use proof that is what it should suggests).
It’s not under fact, because there is no line that says that Shodame was the only member of the Senjuu clan that could do Mokutin, and for the nth time you have failed to point me out the fact from the manga which states this.

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Since you are so hooked up on the trivial facts, please tell us, how many have developed MS before Madara? According to you, MS's existence proves that it should be developed in the history by other people carrying Uchiha blood. Is this true? Right now, no. And as long as Kishi uses his thinking body part to write story, this will continue to stay like that.
Im lost here, first of, it wast mention only an person with the Uchiha blood could gain the MS, maybe you dreamt that.

Either way before Madara none existed, that is a said fact however, did it ended with Madara, yes or no? and furthermore did the Manga said that the Mokuton started with Shodai , Yes or No?? or Did the Manga said that the only Mokuton user form the senjuu was Shodai, Yes or No??

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I already gave some examples that imply that, like what Oro said about the ability, like what Sakura said about it, etc.
Unfortunately for you that implications do not quote directly a fact, and you are even forgetting that you are quoting people before we knew the Senjuu clan existed.

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Just curious, what do you understand if the story tells you that Madara was the first to awaken MS? That means, you already have the information on who had MS. No need for me to create some names to satisfy your curiosity.
I think you are either not reading me well, or have choose not to answet correctly: name me another person besides the one I mentioned that have the MS, once again failing to do this means that no other MS user existed (again, based on your logic).

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Comprehension comes with understanding. And, if the understanding levels do not match, you cannot expect full comprehension. Here, this is what is happening. And sorry to break your heart but, you are not the author. So, your foreseeing ability is as good as any other reader.
My foreseeing ability is as good as any other reader that understand what he is reading, but not as bad as someone that cant tell apart a said fact from an opinion based on circumstantial information.


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I guess I won't succeed to ever make you understand the difference between a regular technique and a bloodline ability.
It is you that have chosen not to understand, this is not about the difference between what type of ability is one to another, I’m using supported evidence for one thing been like it is, and suddenly been changed or expanded by the author.

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Anyways, nothing can be done at this point, it seems. So, as an answer to your question, till the point Kakashi showed Rasengan, according to the story, there were only two who have ever used Rasengan. Saying only two before Naruto had used that would not conflict with the story. On the opposite, it was what the story had suggested for you to believe.
You are going around the point here, how come it was stated only 2 people had Rasengan, when they are actually 3 of them? Does it bring any conflict to put Kakashi doing rasengan, even when it was directly stated that there were just 2? And what about Yamato doing Mokuton does this brings conflict the story when in both manga and databook refers to Mokuton as an ability that only Shodai could do?

So, explain to me, if this examples don’t bring conflict in the story, why should another Mokuton user from the Senjuu clan bring conflict???

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The same question, again! And, just to make things straight so that I can safely ignore any similar questions in the future, I am not Kishimoto. I have never been Kishimoto. And I will never be Kishimoto.
So why you are fixated in quoting my opinion about it, when this is just a match of Opinion where neither you or I can really tell who is right or who is wrong?

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It is too late to make you see the difference. So, I am leaving you with your own thoughts, as it seems, for you, the only opinion to better yours would only be yours. What can I say, my regards to Kishimoto the Rurik version!
I like how you once again decided to avoid my questioning, and in change attack myself, It easy, You say that someone whit Mokuton could not hide that fact, yet I show you manga fact, and what do you do? Attack the poster, classic posting, Its been long since we had this kind of posters over here.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2008-04-07 at 23:05. Reason: a line was added to complete a sentecen "He also was the last"
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Old 2008-04-07, 21:45   Link #146
Fipskuul
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And then why You even bother the debate? I repeated many times that your scenario could be possible, I just don’t buy that scenario, given recent info from the manga pinpoints towards more people with the same ability.
Just so that you won't assume me ignoring your post, I am posting this reply. I have read your post, and seen it as a continuum of our misunderstanding, which is not going to change, based on the flow of our posts.

Regarding your worry about why I used, in your opinion, personal attack; it was just a response to yours (if you read your posts carefully, you will notice that your posts have initiated that process), and I think, I at least used the language more gently instead of the rather harsh ones used in your posts. (also, I don't know how you define personal attack, but, they were mostly targeting the acts not the actor)

Lastly, as you said, why I bother debate. To make claims, support/weaken arguments, and clarify some parts during the discussion, of course. But I prefer not to do this with self-proclaimed human fact-books (and that is not an insult, as you may think it that way, that is how you are presenting yourself with your posts, at least that is how I see). I, personally, do not enjoy debating this way.
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Old 2008-04-07, 22:33   Link #147
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Regarding your worry about why I used, in your opinion, personal attack; it was just a response to yours (if you read your posts carefully, you will notice that your posts have initiated that process), and I think, I at least used the language more gently instead of the rather harsh ones used in your posts. (also, I don't know how you define personal attack, but, they were mostly targeting the acts not the actor)
You should read closely then, I’m not the one who started calling speculation the other person post, when most said was based on Opinions. If you push a little, I’ll do the same, that’s healthy and usual, but when it occupies almost half of your post, then you need a whistle blowing.

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Lastly, as you said, why I bother debate. To make claims, support/weaken arguments, and clarify some parts during the discussion, of course. But I prefer not to do this with self-proclaimed human fact-books (and that is not an insult, as you may think it that way, that is how you are presenting yourself with your posts, at least that is how I see). I, personally, do not enjoy debating this way.

The problem here is that you try to weaken an argument base of almost null information, the same kind of info I had. I don’t know how you do enjoy debating, but it seems you have a need for your opinion to be accepted over others, so you can really feel excitement in the debate.

Either way, the irrefutable info still stand as: there is no direct quote that proves that Shodai was the only Mokuton user in the Senjuu clan , and neither there is a direct quote that proves there where more like him. you can lean towards any of the other, however, the first option is more compliant for me given recent revelation about the clan of the forest.

The only real information we have as readers is that the only known Mokuton user from the Senjuu clan is Shodai.

More importantly, if you are going to have healthy debate around here, you should accept that NO information stated in the Manga is absolute and can be subject to change or expansion, and half of my debate with you was about that.

and I don’t know how the heck we are talking about this when neither my first reply to you nor the thread really refers to it...ohh well...this is what we called deviation of conversations.
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Old 2008-04-08, 04:54   Link #148
HiroInazuma
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OKAY STOP THIS LONG DEBATE!!!

It is possible for there to be other mokuton users in the senju clan, it's as possible as Sasuke's mom having sharingan or Naruto having a latent kekkei genkei. It has not been mentioned but we can speculate and Kishimoto is probably not even going to remember the senju clan for another 20 chapters and he is probably not even going to state other Mokuton users if there is some and the only time they said a technique is exclusive to the Shodai was the ability to surpress Bijuus.
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Old 2008-04-08, 15:13   Link #149
Last of the Uchihas
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Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
OKAY STOP THIS LONG DEBATE!!!

It is possible for there to be other mokuton users in the senju clan, it's as possible as Sasuke's mom having sharingan or Naruto having a latent kekkei genkei. It has not been mentioned but we can speculate and Kishimoto is probably not even going to remember the senju clan for another 20 chapters and he is probably not even going to state other Mokuton users if there is some and the only time they said a technique is exclusive to the Shodai was the ability to surpress Bijuus.
on a cold day in hell.
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Old 2008-05-15, 14:33   Link #150
Sleepy Speculator
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Well thanks... that discussion looked like it went downhill somewhat, i'll post what i was thinking, kindof got out of it...

It seems anyone proficient enough can learn both of their elemental affinities, which somehow corresponds to their ying and yang, the kekkai genkai? or bloodline limits, is what allows successful combination of two elemental affinities to form a new affinity, that doesn't really exist. Yet If Naruto had water it wouldn't mean he could learn ice? He's lucky to have wind to combat lightning, but for some reason they didn't bother trying to teach him water, which if it was his second affinity would allow him to combat the fire affinity... So is the fact that he's only got half the kyuubi's seal, mean that he's probably got his second element sealed up or unbalanced?
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:01   Link #151
Fipskuul
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
It seems anyone proficient enough can learn both of their elemental affinities, which somehow corresponds to their ying and yang, the kekkai genkai? or bloodline limits, is what allows successful combination of two elemental affinities to form a new affinity, that doesn't really exist.
I don't remember anything being mentioned about ying and yang having any impact on learning main elemental affinities (that space is currently not clear). Bloodline limit, by default, lets the carrier use the elemental affinities corresponding to the ability, and as you said currently it is the only known way to integrate elementals to reach a new one. And, logically you should be able to combine more than 2 with a bloodline ability.

Quote:
He's lucky to have wind to combat lightning, but for some reason they didn't bother trying to teach him water, which if it was his second affinity would allow him to combat the fire affinity... So is the fact that he's only got half the kyuubi's seal, mean that he's probably got his second element sealed up or unbalanced?
Jiraiya didn't teach him anything about elemental affinities. And Naruto didn't have time to develop the ability to use another elemental. Though, as the future Hokage, and the son of Yondaime, he should be able develop more in time.

And, about the Kyuubi thing, the sealed part only belongs to Kyuubi, not Naruto's chakra. So, having a sealed Kyuubi chakra shouldn't automatically mean one of the elementals he can use was also sealed. It is always possible that Kyuubi's chakra might impose some limitations on Naruto, but, that part is still not known.

Last edited by Hunter; 2008-05-16 at 05:19.
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Old 2008-05-16, 04:32   Link #152
Sleepy Speculator
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well the argument is hard to follow, but i'll try and get to grips on ying and yang which has been ignored/ passed over...

The ying and yang symbol was shown even with regards to spirit and body way back when he first learnt chakra, and yet later Yamato clearly states something with regards to ying and yang, which is blatantly skimmed over... I could be wrong but isn't ying and yang supposed to balance? If Naruto has a seal with half the kyuubi leaking chakra constantly into him, then his chakra is always unbalanced due to a surplus of for example Ying as compared to Yang. That could be part of the reason apart from being a dunce that he was so far behind every other ninja in control of chakra.

I know the second element thing is a jump and i read most of your'e heated discussion on the other thread, but if most jounin have two elemental affinities or use/of is it not possible this is picked up as a result of mastering the ying and yang elements of their chakra. The way no-ones even told him about his father says to me, that they ain't willing to explain the whole reason 'why' he ain't gonna be able to learn a second element until he has the second half of the kyuubi to balance his chakra.

And i have to admit, i just find it strange, that it's gonna take Jiraiya's death to reveal some of this ...
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