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Old 2008-05-22, 12:19   Link #1241
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
...uh, but there weren't any cracks within their friendship. Lelouch and Suzaku started out hating each other, so the only way to go was up. The only got one summer together anyway.

Besides, there's isn't really a basis for jealousy or 'overshadowing' between them anyway. To compare Lelouch and Suzaku in tactical ability, or Suzaku and Lelouch in physical ability, would be ridiculous, and they both knew this from the start. There's friendly teasing on that basis from both fronts, but in fact the extreme seperation in their abilities actually enhances their bond, to the point where they both believe "We can achieve anything together". Add that to the fact that Lelouch and Suzaku have the same goals (happiness, a kind world), and you end up with what should have been an unbreakable bond.

...Huh?

Of course, that is how this story was made.

I am saying that it would have been nice if they went about it the other way. Lelouch and Suzaku being "friends" isn't really a huge point of emphasis in this story. It's just "there". The friends turning into enemies theme is a great one if done well. If it was done, it could have added to the story significantly. The story just didn't go that route, which to me is a shame.

Comparing this ability or that ability? I'm not talking about their abilities enhancing their teamwork, I'm talking about the aspects of relationships, especially in close friendship. Envy, desire, pride, anger, hate, love, respect, devotion, empathy, trust, etc.

Do you really care if your best friend runs faster than you or is better at chess? Only if you pride yourself in those areas as well. Jealousy or overshadowing can be wrought by one constantly in the limelight and the other not, correct? There are many ways that one friend can be overshadowed by another.

Friendships don't revolve around abilities. They constantly revolve around the interactions and the surrounding events.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-05-22 at 13:01.
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Old 2008-05-22, 12:25   Link #1242
Dann of Thursday
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Neither Suzaku nor Lelouch seemed to mind what the other could do. In fact, they seemed to both value the other's abilities as they could work together so well.
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Old 2008-05-22, 13:05   Link #1243
LastOrder
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Ok, do you really see the Order of Black Knights targeting civilians specifically, Japanese or Britannian? I don't remember seeing anyone ordering the killing of any civilians period in the series. They really are more like the Korean Resistance moreso than the Palestinians.

The Japanese civilians, Suzaku's people, love the Black Knights. The Britannian civilians fear the Black Knights, but that is mostly because the Britannian government has named them terrorists and enemies of the state moreso than any large killings of Britannian civilians. Many Britannian civilians are actually intrigued by the Black Knights.
Yeah, the Japanese Civilians basically hate Suzaku's guts now. I wouldn't blame them, I would hate him for being a traitor too.
Yeah, I'm not such a Suzaku fan either, I stopped liking him in episode 23. Despite the fact that I dislike him, I really love his character development, he's the perfect match for Lelouch. I just wish Lelouch and Suzaku could meet eye to eye again D:
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Old 2008-05-22, 13:36   Link #1244
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Yeah, I'm not such a Suzaku fan either, I stopped liking him in episode 23.
That's strange, most people hate him up untill episode 23.
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Old 2008-05-22, 13:38   Link #1245
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He became more realistic and naive after that episode after all.
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Old 2008-05-22, 14:06   Link #1246
LastOrder
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That's strange, most people hate him up untill episode 23.

Lol hate, I don't hate Suzu, I won't bash him or anything, On the contrary I praise his personality and his role in this series, it gives the show more plot twists, which keeps the suspense up, which makes me happy. >_>; Even if he is my least favorite.
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Old 2008-05-22, 14:43   Link #1247
SoldierOfDarkness
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Allow me to clarify then. With Suzaku in charge Japan will never be freed from Britanian influence. Everything will continue like it has been at the start of the series: Britanians will still be held in higher regard, the Japanese are still going to be referred to as dirt (with the exception of Suzaku himself). In other words, Britania would always keep Japan on a leash. Lelouch on the other hand wants all Britanian influence gone from Japan, or at least influence that his father has. The only difference between these 2 is that Lelouch's followers willingly set forth into battle believing he can grant them the Japan of the past. Whether this is the wrong method or not remains to be seen however.
Japan's better off NOT being run by Suzaku.

Until Euphie's name is cleared, which will be impossible, that massacre will always tail behind Suzaku. Even if he brings it into some golden age or something they'll never get over that betrayal.
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Old 2008-05-22, 15:46   Link #1248
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Allow me to clarify then. With Suzaku in charge Japan will never be freed from Britanian influence. Everything will continue like it has been at the start of the series: Britanians will still be held in higher regard, the Japanese are still going to be referred to as dirt (with the exception of Suzaku himself). In other words, Britania would always keep Japan on a leash. Lelouch on the other hand wants all Britanian influence gone from Japan, or at least influence that his father has. The only difference between these 2 is that Lelouch's followers willingly set forth into battle believing he can grant them the Japan of the past. Whether this is the wrong method or not remains to be seen however.
If Suzaku can become KoO he will have Japan for himself, he can do whatever he want with it and i don't think he will allow his people to be treated as dirt anymore.
To me Suzaku's "change from within" means to gain enough power to change the rule without too much bloodshed, when he obtain that power he won't just sit back and relax but begin making a better country where Japanese=Britanian.He's not as smart as Lelouch but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a brain!!

Quote:
Until Euphie's name is cleared, which will be impossible, that massacre will always tail behind Suzaku. Even if he brings it into some golden age or something they'll never get over that betrayal.
I think common people are quite forgiving if you can feed them and make their lives better.After all he never fired a shot during that massacre and can get away easily with some pretty words.
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Old 2008-05-22, 15:56   Link #1249
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Even if he brings it into some golden age or something they'll never get over that betrayal.
I'm not too sure of that. Sure, the massacre will always be a stain on his reputation with the japanese, but as Ashram pointed out in Record of Lodoss War the TV series, what the people in general want is not necressarilly to be freed from the country in question, but to be freed from tyranny - so as long as Suzaku brought some amount of peace and proserity to the people. they'd tolerate him at the very least. I sort of find it hard to believe that Suzaku'd succceed with that though; he's not the leader/politican-type, he's a warrior and idealist and that's about it...
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Old 2008-05-22, 16:02   Link #1250
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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If Suzaku can become KoO he will have Japan for himself, he can do whatever he want with it and i don't think he will allow his people to be treated as dirt anymore.
To me Suzaku's "change from within" means to gain enough power to change the rule without too much bloodshed, when he obtain that power he won't just sit back and relax but begin making a better country where Japanese=Britanian.He's not as smart as Lelouch but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a brain!!



I think common people are quite forgiving if you can feed them and make their lives better.After all he never fired a shot during that massacre and can get away easily with some pretty words.
After Suzaku becomes Knight of One and picks Japan, what will he do?

Will he start creating harsh penalties for any Britannian that treats a Japanese wrong?

Will he force Britannians to give up their wealth and disperse it among the Japanese population?

How would the Britannians feel?

To say that you want to create equality is all nice, but it is much much easier said than done. To do it his way, he is going to have to change whole cultures, something that is not given up easily and not easily done even in one or two generations.

And, it doesn't give what the Japanese what they truly want. True self-governance and real sovereignty.

To achieve those goals, Suzaku wouldn't be aiming at ruling Japan under Britannia's name, he would be aiming for peaceful secession internally within the Empire.
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Old 2008-05-22, 16:06   Link #1251
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
After Suzaku becomes Knight of One and picks Japan, what will he do?

Will he start creating harsh penalties for any Britannian that treats a Japanese wrong?

Will he force Britannians to give up their wealth and disperse it among the Japanese population?

How would the Britannians feel?

To say that you want to create equality is all nice, but it is much much easier said than done. To do it his way, he is going to have to change whole cultures, something that is not given up easily.

And, it doesn't give what the Japanese what they truly want. True self-governance and real sovereignty.

To achieve those goals, Suzaku wouldn't be aiming at ruling Japan under Britannia's name, he would be aiming for peaceful secession internally within the Empire.
I don't think that's how it works.

It puts the Japanese at the same level as the britannians. Meaning that they'll have equal opportunity at least to have a reasonable good life (I'm guessing some jobs are not allowed to be given to numbers and so forth).

You don't have to change anything actually. Just remove the laws that discriminate or pamper the numbers from the britannians.

I mean American culture didn't exactly change drarmatically when they started to treat african-americans more equally did it and the caucisans didn't exactly had to start dispersing their wealth to them.
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Old 2008-05-22, 16:18   Link #1252
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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I don't think that's how it works.

It puts the Japanese at the same level as the britannians. Meaning that they'll have equal opportunity at least to have a reasonable good life (I'm guessing some jobs are not allowed to be given to numbers and so forth).

You don't have to change anything actually. Just remove the laws that discriminate or pamper the numbers from the britannians.

I mean American culture didn't exactly change drarmatically when they started to treat african-americans more equally did it?
Well, it is very arguable that African-Americans took 150+ years to actually gain equal rights and treatment after they were given them with the post-American Civil War Amendments. As late as the 80's, mistreatment of blacks was prevalent in many areas of the United States. And yes, American culture changed dramatically.

Also, it's a socio-economic thing. The Britannians have all the wealth in Japan. Are you going to take it from them? You could do so, but that would make for a lot of angry Britannians who are one side of the equation as well. How else are you going to promote equality? Are you going to leave the wealth with the Britannians and leave the Japanese without?

Are you going to let Japanese in as part of the governing process? The Empire isn't a democracy by any means. Are you going to install some sort of pseudo-puppet government?

Where do you start?
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Old 2008-05-22, 16:23   Link #1253
SoldierOfDarkness
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Which of course is sorta the path Nunnally and Suzaku wants. The slow one.

Quote:
Also, it's a socio-economic thing. The Britannians have all the wealth in Japan. Are you going to take it from them? You could do so, but that would make for a lot of angry Britannians, who are one side of the equation as well. How else are you going to promote equality? Are you going to leave the wealth with the Britannians and leave the Japanese without?
If we are to follow the britannian system then the best course of action is to give them all honorary britannian status to bring them closer and more tolerable to the britannians and go from there.

Though how they want to run this SAR is up to spectulation.
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Old 2008-05-22, 16:42   Link #1254
tenken627
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Which of course is sorta the path Nunnally and Suzaku wants. The slow one.



If we are to follow the britannian system then the best course of action is to give them all honorary britannian status to bring them closer and more tolerable to the britannians and go from there.

Though how they want to run this SAR is up to spectulation.
That is what I am saying. How will they do it?

You've given Britannian status to all Japanese, fine. Will that make everything better? They may be "equal" in name, but in reality, are they really equal? Just because a Japanese has honorary Britannian status, are they really much more tolerable to real Britannians?

Does this mean that Japanese are superior in status to other ethnic groups from other conquered countries, or is it just within Japan alone?

Do the Japanese ghettos become more of an economic "prison" instead of a social one? More importantly, will they move out?

Can they govern themselves? Can they govern other Britannians?

Ideally? Realistically?

It's very naive to go into such a deep social and political maneuvering with just that thought alone (SAZ or KoO Territory), no matter how good the intentions are.

There are very very few colonies that haven't gotten independence yet from their former territorial masters. Especially if that colony has an indigenous population unlike that of the conquering nation's. It just doesn't work well without military might.

And it is especially hard to change a culture when the head of the Empire spews out his "The strong survives, and the weak perishes" speeches that will only embolden a Britannian's feeling of superiority.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-05-22 at 17:02.
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Old 2008-05-22, 16:55   Link #1255
Luminion Lancer
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
If Suzaku can become KoO he will have Japan for himself, he can do whatever he want with it and i don't think he will allow his people to be treated as dirt anymore.

To me Suzaku's "change from within" means to gain enough power to change the rule without too much bloodshed, when he obtain that power he won't just sit back and relax but begin making a better country where Japanese=Britanian. He's not as smart as Lelouch but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a brain!!
-But that's the thing. The Japanese do not want to be held on equal grounds as the people that conquered them. They don't want a country that they have to share with someone that came in, mutilated their friends and family, robbed them of their land and nationality and then be forced to share it like they've been friends from the start. This is why Zero/Lelouch is their hope, their savior. Because before that Special Administration ordeal Zero proclaimed that he will continue to oppress Britania as long as they continue their mistreatment of the Japanese.

-By the way, isn't it ironic that Suzaku wants a road with as little bloodshed as possible and yet to become a Knight of One he has to slaughter all whom he is told to in order to advance in ranks?
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Old 2008-05-22, 17:45   Link #1256
DN24
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But that's the thing. The Japanese do not want to be held on equal grounds as the people that conquered them. They don't want a country that they have to share with someone that came in, mutilated their friends and family, robbed them of their land and nationality and then be forced to share it like they've been friends from the start. This is why Zero/Lelouch is their hope, their savior. Because before that Special Administration ordeal Zero proclaimed that he will continue to oppress Britania as long as they continue their mistreatment of the Japanese.
Zero's USJ is exactly the same thing so I can't see why the Japanese should accept USJ but not Suzaku's plan consider that less Japanese lives as well as Britanians lives will be sacrifice if they accept Suzaku

Quote:
-By the way, isn't it ironic that Suzaku wants a road with as little bloodshed as possible and yet to become a Knight of One he has to slaughter all whom he is told to in order to advance in ranks?
He has no choice but to advance through the army because that's the only way for an "eleven" to gain status,power.
I think he has more or less discarded the bloodshed part ever since Euphie incident.And he only slaughter soldiers not civilians.
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Old 2008-05-22, 18:37   Link #1257
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Zero's USJ is exactly the same thing so I can't see why the Japanese should accept USJ but not Suzaku's plan consider that less Japanese lives as well as Britanians lives will be sacrifice if they accept Suzaku


He has no choice but to advance through the army because that's the only way for an "eleven" to gain status,power.
I think he has more or less discarded the bloodshed part ever since Euphie incident.And he only slaughter soldiers not civilians.
1. There is no reason to believe Suzaku has any means to prevent Eleven persecution, because he hasn't stop any persecution of anyone up to this point. Suzku does not have the political skills to convince anyone to do what he say wants, and the Emperor won't help him because the Emperor don't help anyone.
(e.g. Euphie was governor of Area 11, but she was powerless to chose her own favorite painting.)

2. And it is true Suzaku doesn't get his hands dirty with Civilian blood. But he is currently conquering Europe with the intent of turning it into Numbered areas, which means they will become Zones of civilian killing like the rest of them. He knows it, and does it anyway. He doesn't care when OTHER people kill civilians, because it is legal under Britannian law.
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Old 2008-05-22, 18:54   Link #1258
Luminion Lancer
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Zero's USJ is exactly the same thing so I can't see why the Japanese should accept USJ but not Suzaku's plan consider that less Japanese lives as well as Britanians lives will be sacrifice if they accept Suzaku

He has no choice but to advance through the army because that's the only way for an "eleven" to gain status, power.
I think he has more or less discarded the bloodshed part ever since Euphie incident. And he only slaughter soldiers not civilians.
-Because unlike the country that Suzaku serves with complete faith the USJ never declared war on Japan for all those years. Instead they claimed to uphold justice and oppress those who would use their power to terrorize the weak and defenceless. When a hero declares a country independant it sounds a whole lot more convincing than a representative of a country that slaughtered your people.

-Not true. He could have chosen to become a political figure like Martin Luther king and proceed with his plans that way. Instead he chose to serve a foreign military power without a second thought, a plan that doomed his "I don't want to kill people" speech. We know that Honorary Britanians gain more rights as civilians so why not try being a "peaceful revolutionary"?
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Last edited by Luminion Lancer; 2008-05-22 at 20:33.
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Old 2008-05-22, 19:37   Link #1259
DN24
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1. There is no reason to believe Suzaku has any means to prevent Eleven persecution, because he hasn't stop any persecution of anyone up to this point. Suzku does not have the political skills to convince anyone to do what he say wants, and the Emperor won't help him because the Emperor don't help anyone.
(e.g. Euphie was governor of Area 11, but she was powerless to chose her own favorite painting.)

2. And it is true Suzaku doesn't get his hands dirty with Civilian blood. But he is currently conquering Europe with the intent of turning it into Numbered areas, which means they will become Zones of civilian killing like the rest of them. He knows it, and does it anyway. He doesn't care when OTHER people kill civilians, because it is legal under Britannian law.
Euphia was not Area 11 governor,Cornelia was! Euphie had no real power.
I think right now the most important thing for him is to become KoO,other things can wait.

Quote:
-Because unlike the country that Suzaku serves with complete faith the USJ never declared war on Japan for all those years. Instead they claimed to uphold justice and oppress those who would use their power to terrorize the weak and defenceless. When a hero declares a country independant it sounds a whole lot more convincing than a representative of a country that slaughtered your people.

-Not true. He could have chosen to become a political figure like Marin Luther king and proceed with his plans that way. Instead he chose to serve a foreign military power without a second thought, a plan that doomed his "I don't want to kill people" speech. We know that Honorary Britanians gain more rights as civilians so why not try being a "peaceful revolutionary"?
1.USJ is Zero's creation, and from what he said he'll gladly accept anyone be it Japanese or Britanian,so in the end it's practically the same but USJ creator(Zero) used pretty words to fool people into thinking that they're ally of justice.I don't like the way he manipulate a whole country into fighting his war against his father!!!
2.It's not a wise choice at all and he'll be kill before he can do anything.
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Old 2008-05-22, 19:46   Link #1260
lucidwolfe
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Zero's USJ is exactly the same thing so I can't see why the Japanese should accept USJ but not Suzaku's plan consider that less Japanese lives as well as Britanians lives will be sacrifice if they accept Suzaku


He has no choice but to advance through the army because that's the only way for an "eleven" to gain status,power.
I think he has more or less discarded the bloodshed part ever since Euphie incident.And he only slaughter soldiers not civilians.

I dont see how did USJ mutilated their friends and family, robbed them of their land and nationality and then forced them to share Japan like they've been friends from the start? The Order has always being by the Jap for the Japs. Most probably believe that Zero is a japanese.

and to add on.. "less Japanese lives as well as Britanians lives will be sacrifice if they accept Suzaku and life will go on just as it has being before the rebellion"

I dont see why slaughtering soldiers arent bloodshed they're humans.. fulfilling their jobs to protect the 'innocent' civilians
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