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Old 2008-05-23, 18:13   Link #261
Guppy
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Incidentally, HG2 was inspired by Square's Front Mission series, and it first started out as a pen n' paper strategy.
Do you have a source for that? The chronology looks odd on that one, since the Heavy Gear tabletop game was first published in 1994 while Front Mission came out in 1995. The series I've generally seen mentioned as a source of inspiration for Heavy Gear was VOTOMS.

The Heavy Gear 1 and 2 computer games, on the other hand, seemed to me to owe more to MechWarrior 2 than to Front Mission - my recollections of HG1 are that Activision actually recycled the MechWarrior engine wholesale, with sometimes hilarious results (snub cannons as effective anti-Gear weapons? Gears still fighting with legs blown off?).
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Old 2008-05-23, 18:18   Link #262
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Oooh, you've just proven that my memory is sketchy and requires a massive reboot. Votoms is right, not Front Mission.

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Old 2008-05-23, 18:22   Link #263
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votoms was great. shame it was a bit 2D in respect to battlefield tactics.

i.e. no concept of artillery, Air superiority and above orbit planetary bombardment
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Old 2008-05-25, 10:58   Link #264
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Or where fleet carriers hold, wait for it, twelve mecha.

Seriously, a Gundam vs Macross matchup leads to the gundam pratagonists being horribly, horribly, screwed. Especially a SEED Destiny vs VF-19 matchup; VF-19s and -22s use fusion reactors unaffected by N-jammers, plus they have active stealth that scrambles radar and heat sensors, AND pinpoint barriers.

The only reason the Destiny cast have a snowball's chance in hell of winning is because Gundam fanboys outnumber Macross otaku.
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Old 2008-05-25, 11:32   Link #265
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Not that this isn't a silly argument (my applied phlebotinum is stronger than your applied phlebotinum!), but NJ messes with radars and sensors too, so everyone would be fighting blind. Or at least, nearsighted. And Phase Shift Armor is very resistant to missiles and bullets.

But yeah, Macross would win through sheer numbers.
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Old 2008-05-25, 12:29   Link #266
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Gundam's Shift Armor can be assumed to be approximately of the same construction as Macross' reactive/energy armor. Except the latter is always on, while the former is far more suspect to disruption. That and SEED Gundams have a pathetic excuse for a fuel capacity.

But never-mind that.

Anh_Minh summed it up pretty correctly: "Its the economics, stupid!"

Seriously, it would appear the folks in Gundam are fond of building colonies, but never settling on a planet, except for a few readily available ones in the solar system, such as the Moon and Mars.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-25, 12:45   Link #267
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That and SEED Gundams have a pathetic excuse for a fuel capacity.
Completely forgot about that fact. That alone is probably sufficient enough to tip balance towards Macross.

The other thing to consider is the fighting styles the mecha pilots employ. In Macross, they make it very clear that at high-velocity engagements the weapons of choice are primarily long range weapons. When things slow down or the engagement occurs on the ground, then melee/close-combat tactics are viable. In Gundam, this distinction between long range vs close range is blurred during high-velocity engagements. It is not unusual to see Gundam pilots employing hand-to-hand weapons in the middle of a high velocity engagement.

Personally I think Macross pilots get the upper hand because they'll control range and nature of the engagement.....but this is all just a rehash of the great mecha debates between Gundam and Macross that have been going on for the last 20+ years and I have no interest of opening up that can of worms in this forum.
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Old 2008-05-25, 12:51   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not that this isn't a silly argument (my applied phlebotinum is stronger than your applied phlebotinum!), but NJ messes with radars and sensors too, so everyone would be fighting blind. Or at least, nearsighted. And Phase Shift Armor is very resistant to missiles and bullets.
That's true, but in SEED, we see how a lot of detection is with heat sensors; I've heard that the active stealth system scrambles heat detection at range.

As for PSA - yeah, it's resistant to bullets and missiles. On the other hand, I'm doubtful a battery-powered PSA-equipped unit could tank a full on M3 and not lose its PSA. That said IMO PSA is a lot better than EC armor in terms of ballistic/kinetic protection. Then again VF-19s have beam guns... and beams >> PSA.

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But yeah, Macross would win through sheer numbers.
Yep. Missile bukakke for the great win, plus the fact that Kawamori being a fighter otaku doesn't subscribe to the feeling that "Just twelve fighters are enough."

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Gundam's Shift Armor can be assumed to be approximately of the same construction as Macross' reactive/energy armor. Except the latter is always on, while the former is far more suspect to disruption. That and SEED Gundams have a pathetic excuse for a fuel capacity.
Well it's always appeared to me that EC armor is weaker than PSA despite being similar conceptually; generally once PSA is on there is nothing that can take it down short of PSA disruption methods or running outta power. EC armer, we've seen, can be defeated by pumping enough lead at it.

Quote:
But never-mind that.

Anh_Minh summed it up pretty correctly: "Its the economics, stupid!"

Seriously, it would appear the folks in Gundam are fond of building colonies, but never settling on a planet, except for a few readily available ones in the solar system, such as the Moon and Mars.

- Tak
Well IIRC Kawamori intended Macross to be a more realistic affectionate parody of gundam :P

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Originally Posted by cerrian View Post
Completely forgot about that fact. That alone is probably sufficient enough to tip balance towards Macross.

The other thing to consider is the fighting styles the mecha pilots employ. In Macross, they make it very clear that at high-velocity engagements the weapons of choice are primarily long range weapons. When things slow down or the engagement occurs on the ground, then melee/close-combat tactics are viable. In Gundam, this distinction between long range vs close range is blurred during high-velocity engagements. It is not unusual to see Gundam pilots employing hand-to-hand weapons in the middle of a high velocity engagement.

Personally I think Macross pilots get the upper hand because they'll control range and nature of the engagement.....but this is all just a rehash of the great mecha debates between Gundam and Macross that have been going on for the last 20+ years and I have no interest of opening up that can of worms in this forum.
Not to mention the fact that they'll outrun anyone from Gundam; the VF-19 and VF-22 can do Mach 5 at 30k feet and Mach 22 at 90k feet, and the only reason neither of them can go any faster is because according to Kawamori, they'd kill the pilot from going too fast. Then he goes on to say that the VF-25 has new tech to make it go faster and keep the pilot alive...

As for silliness... i'm a vetarn of silly debates in the Nanoha boards on the speeds of magical beams. It got to the point when I used the story of the bumble flying despite supposedly being aerodynamically incapable of doing so as an allegory for the silliness of these debates... and the most stubborn voiceferous debator went and explained to me how I was wrong and bumblebees can fly in accordance with aerodynamics.

I've always wondered how a debate between arkangelsk and Wesley84 would look like. Definately a match made in internet hell.

What would really make the VF-19 and VF-22 monsters would be to give them PSA...

Hmmm on a tangent, I think probably the only reason the UN Spacy still uses solid slug gunpods is because ballistic weapons still have a higher rate of fire than energy guns.
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Old 2008-05-25, 12:59   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Gundam's Shift Armor can be assumed to be approximately of the same construction as Macross' reactive/energy armor. Except the latter is always on, while the former is far more suspect to disruption. That and SEED Gundams have a pathetic excuse for a fuel capacity.
Alto lost a wing tip to a mere bullet. His craft was also later crushed and impaled. It wouldn't have happened with PSA. Which is also always on, as long as the Gundam has energy. I'm not sure how long that is is very consistent within the series.

As for the Gundam's fuel capacity... Yeah. Except the nuclear ones who aren't Destiny. Still, that'd make it a fight of a gazillion valkyries against half a dozen Gundams?
Quote:
Seriously, it would appear the folks in Gundam are fond of building colonies, but never settling on a planet, except for a few readily available ones in the solar system, such as the Moon and Mars.

- Tak
They have no FTL technology.


Cerrian: why would the macross side control the range? I'd think it would be whoever is faster and more maneuverable, and how are we to determine who that is?
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Old 2008-05-25, 13:02   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Alto lost a wing tip to a mere bullet. His craft was also later crushed and impaled. It wouldn't have happened with PSA. Which is also always on, as long as the Gundam has energy. I'm not sure how long that is is very consistent within the series.
Which is what I was mentioning a while ago; PSA is a LOT tougher than EC armor.

Quote:
As for the Gundam's fuel capacity... Yeah. Except the nuclear ones who aren't Destiny. Still, that'd make it a fight of a gazillion valkyries against half a dozen Gundams?
Pretty much.

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Cerrian: why would the macross side control the range? I'd think it would be whoever is faster and more maneuverable, and how are we to determine who that is?
Official stats. :P Most UC mecha can accelerate to around 1.5g in space, which gives an idea of their thrust and stuff. SEED has no hard stats so that the scriptwriters can handwave, but then Kawamori did the same thing too That said in atmosphere I would think the advantage goes to the Valks.
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Old 2008-05-25, 13:22   Link #271
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post

Cerrian: why would the macross side control the range? I'd think it would be whoever is faster and more maneuverable, and how are we to determine who that is?
Without having to delve down into the technical specs for each mecha, it boils down to simple strategy and tactics of engaging your opponent outside or under their optimal weapon range/tracking and retreating when the situation becomes unfavorable. Someone who is faster and more maneuverable can dictate the range of the engagement, but they need to be significantly faster/maneuverable to be able to cut off the target's retreat option and force an engagement.

The reason I believe the Macross side has the ability to control the range and nature of an engagement with a Gundam is that to me it appears that the VFs and Gundams are on par in terms of speed and maneuverability (actually the VFs feel a bit more agile). Combine that with the flexibility of the VF's weapons payload, then I believe the VFs will almost always have the choice of where and when they want to engage a gundam as the gundam will never be able to cutoff a VF's retreat option nor will it force a VF to engage on Gundam's terms.
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Old 2008-05-25, 18:25   Link #272
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I guess its sooner or later we would have a discussion regarding the relative physics of the Gundam and Macross universes. While Macross is largely consistent regarding its own physics, Gundam is anything but. On one hand, you have Gundams in Z and ZZ doing unbelievable things, while on the other hand, you have Gundams in War in the Pocket or MS08 Team pretty much screaming WEAK SAUCE all over. Even Gundam SEED itself is terribly inconsistent, but I guess it makes good comparison since for some odd reason, we believe it to be the most relevant.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Alto lost a wing tip to a mere bullet. His craft was also later crushed and impaled. It wouldn't have happened with PSA. Which is also always on, as long as the Gundam has energy. I'm not sure how long that is is very consistent within the series.
I don't think we should treat Vajra ammunition as 'mere' bullets, as Vajra weaponry is energy based and would be anything but a bullet. This is evident since the original Macross, or for Frontier, episode 1. Vajra guns do not discharge empty shells, while gunpods still do. And Zentradi guns are generally all energy based, as well.

It would appear only the UN SPACY still rely on kinetic weaponry, although energy weaponry is readily available and in large quantities. But should we even analyze those 'kinetic' weaponry using the same physical rules we apply to today's weaponry? I don't think we should.

Nevertheless, during the duel between Impulse and Freedom, a well placed shot by Shinn from his pulse rifle pretty much went through the Freedom's PSA and blew its side in pieces. And we know the pulse rifle is not a very spectacular weapon.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As for the Gundam's fuel capacity... Yeah. Except the nuclear ones who aren't Destiny. Still, that'd make it a fight of a gazillion valkyries against half a dozen Gundams?
Yet, during the ZAFT invasion of ORB in Destiny, Shinn's Destiny Gundam ran out of fuel pretty quick. Its fuel was in the red zone after a brief encounter with Akatsuki and Strike Freedom. The entire duration that Destiny was in battle was no more than an hour or so, maybe two at most.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They have no FTL technology.
Which is another advantage to Macross.

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Cerrian: why would the macross side control the range? I'd think it would be whoever is faster and more maneuverable, and how are we to determine who that is?
VFs can control the range, especially in the atmosphere due to their relatively higher acceleration, overall speed and their aerodynamic design. Remember, they can transform into a fighter in a snap.

Moreover, VF weapons tend to have longer range than Gundams, because the former is equipped with missiles, and lots of them. In theory, VFs can engage enemies at a considerable range before they are threatened.

Although I don't know why most of the named (and grunts) Gundams are never equipped with missile weapons.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-25 at 23:26.
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Old 2008-05-25, 20:21   Link #273
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I just want to point out before I run to work that PSA is the Gundarium/Luna Titanium of the 21st century, and it has been explicitly stated that while kinetic weapons - even Gundam railguns - do jack shit to PSA, beams can disrupt PSA and blast through.

It's really just an excuse to make beam sabers viable in SEED. In the original Gundam, Minovsky Particles screwed up radar and heat sensors, so people HAD to close to visual range to fight.

N-jammer interferance, now that I think about it some more, may or may not interefere with the guidance packages of the missiles Ozma was packing, unless, as is always assumed, micromissiles are heatseekers (mostly because IR seeker heads are smaller than SARH or active radar seeekers). THough there is the fold induction transmission system.

In an atmospheric fight VFs have the advantage; on the other hand however they can't take as much punishment as Gundam.

But IMO the best part of Macross is just the fact that you don't need to be an Ace to make a difference. Though it can't hurt; that's how Max snagged Millia afterall.

As for the UN Spacy still using kinetic weapons, I'm of the opinion that it's because they can't make a rapidfire laser gun yet that's practical, and gatlings still have higher rates of fire compared to NUNS beam weapons.
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Old 2008-05-25, 21:01   Link #274
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
As for the UN Spacy still using kinetic weapons, I'm of the opinion that it's because they can't make a rapidfire laser gun yet that's practical, and gatlings still have higher rates of fire compared to NUNS beam weapons.
Thats actually a bit off.

Never-mind that Zentradi weapons are mostly energy-based, with the sole exception to homing weapons, the VF-22, itself being based on the Queadluun-Rau, is also fitted with energy based weaponry. And it is a mass production model. The Queadluun-Rea itself is equipped with twin, tri-barreled particle beam cannon, thus particle weapons in that category can be manufactured.

Moreover, We can assume that Mikhail's sniper rifle is also energy based.

I can only assume the kinetic weapons carry with them some special properties, which cannot be compared to weapons from Macross 1982, and thus allow their deployment en masse.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-25 at 21:16.
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Old 2008-05-25, 22:29   Link #275
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Thats actually a bit off.

Never-mind that Zentradi weapons are mostly energy-based, with the sole exception to homing weapons, the VF-22, itself being based on the Queadluun-Rau, is also fitted with energy based weaponry. And it is a mass production model. The Queadluun itself is equipped with twin, tri-barreled particle beam cannon, thus particle weapons in that category can be manufactured.

Moreover, We can assume that Mikhail's sniper rifle is also energy based.

I can only assume the kinetic weapons carry with them some special properties, which cannot be compared to weapons from Macross 1982, and thus allow their deployment en masse.

- Tak
That's strange, how can the energy weapon on a QR tag someone with paint? Holographic paint?

Looking at the performance of the Macross energy weapons against the gunpods, I'd say that the definate advantage is the penetration power of the kinetic weapons. IMO, the armour used is probably better able to protect against beam type weapons than a solid metal slug travelling at supersonic speeds.Of course, the armour used for a VB-6, Vajra red bug and a full armour VF is solid enough to shrug off anything less than a dedicated anti-armour weapon. Case in point is KK using her heavy energy cannon at zero distance and only cracking the armour. Nasty piece of work that bug.

Probably explains why the VF-25 has a energy blade- for situations requiring the use of a can opener without the ensuing nuclear detonation.

Another way would be to deliver an overpowering explosive payload that surpasses the defensive output of the EC armour. A QR is usually guilty of that, but even then it may not work >_<

Considering that Gundams are built first as space based mecha, how about a match up against the Queadluun-Rea/Rau? The QR is also a dedicated space operations mech [next to the fact that there's usually a hot giantess inside that can tear a VF apart with her bare hands ], and I'd put my money down on Zentradi quality for the following reasons.

1. Missile spam- 120 of them.
2. 5 guns for the 'ball of death effect'.
3. High rate of turn and accelleration. Good enough to narrowly spin out of the way of a sweeping beam weapon.

A QR is a close assault weapons platform. It isn't as useful in melee, nuclear delivery or shooting at range which is where a VF does better.
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Old 2008-05-25, 23:14   Link #276
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That's strange, how can the energy weapon on a QR tag someone with paint? Holographic paint?
Simple, take the real gun out, and then swap a paint gun in there. Thus she was able to only use one arm when the Vajra defolded. If you watched the original DYRL, it is quite clear when Milia fired her weapons at point-blank range against a hapless Zentradi soldier, she discharged beams of energy, not bullets.

In addition, we do not know the physical properties of gunpod ammunition used in Macross Frontier. Although I believe it is possible for them to penetrate even PSA armor after a few well placed bursts.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-26, 07:38   Link #277
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Thats actually a bit off.

Never-mind that Zentradi weapons are mostly energy-based, with the sole exception to homing weapons, the VF-22, itself being based on the Queadluun-Rau, is also fitted with energy based weaponry. And it is a mass production model. The Queadluun-Rea itself is equipped with twin, tri-barreled particle beam cannon, thus particle weapons in that category can be manufactured.
Let me clarify: a practical, rapidfire beam gun with the same rate of fire as a gatling gun. If we follow your argument that Macross guns are technologically ahead of modern guns by leaps and bounds, then they can surely beat these numbers: the US standard M61 Vulcan has a rate of fire of 6000 rounds per minute, or 600 rounds PER SECOND; the GAU-8 Avenger has a rate of fire of 3,900 rounds per minute.

Yes particle weapons in the gatling category can be manufactured, but kinetic weapons are still a lot more practical for uber rapid fire.

All valks have had energy guns of some sort. The VF-19 and VF-22, despite having significant amounts of beam weapons, however, still use gatling gunpods as their primary weapons - the valk with the beam gunpod you're thinking of was the beam adapter used on Gamlin's VF-17S gunpod; the VF-19 and -22 use gunpods firing solid ammo (cased for the VF-19 and caseless for the VF-22). The air defense destroids we saw on docked with Quarter were also using twin gatlings instead of lasers because when you're intercepting enemy fire you want as much lead up there as you can, and the only way you can do that short of a Metal Storm system is with a gatling.

As to why there weren't any shell casings flying around: caseless ammo. The VF-22 already uses it, and caseless ammo means you get a slight increase in ammo and don't have to worry about shell casings.

Quote:
Moreover, We can assume that Mikhail's sniper rifle is also energy based.
Not nesscescarily. We know that the humans tend to prefer kinetic weapons, and judging by the recoil on it I'd hazard a guess and say it could be a railgun, which would still work in both low power and hi-power modes. Plus there was visible recoil on the red that Mikhail shot; you don't really get those with beams. A hunk of superdense metal slamming into you, on the other hand...

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I can only assume the kinetic weapons carry with them some special properties, which cannot be compared to weapons from Macross 1982, and thus allow their deployment en masse.

- Tak
They're probably fuckloads cheaper to make and service compared to energy guns. No worries about power conduits and crap, just mechanical parts. When you're off in the back of beyond you don't exactly want guns that can't be easily fixed. Same reason why the US Army and Marines aren't too keen on the idea of directed energy weapons, and why the AF is pursuing them; the more complicated and sophisticated the weapon is, the more you're screwed when it stops working and you can't fix it. Gatlings are simpler to fix than energy guns.

Besides, comparing "pewpewpewpewpew" or "pew-pew-pew-pew-pew" and "WHHIRRRBBRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNGGGGG", most fighter pilots would rather go for the gun with the higher rate of fire. I know I would. In dogfighting, gunfights are basically planting out a crapload of lead where you hope/think/anticipate your target will be, and your chances of scoring a hit go up with the more rounds you put out.

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Simple, take the real gun out, and then swap a paint gun in there. Thus she was able to only use one arm when the Vajra defolded. If you watched the original DYRL, it is quite clear when Milia fired her weapons at point-blank range against a hapless Zentradi soldier, she discharged beams of energy, not bullets.
Isn't DYRL generally considered to be as accurate to Macross as Top Gun was to the Navy?

Quote:
In addition, we do not know the physical properties of gunpod ammunition used in Macross Frontier. Although I believe it is possible for them to penetrate even PSA armor after a few well placed bursts.

- Tak
I'd lead towards SAPHEI rounds personally, a round that's a mix of armor piercing, high explosive, and incedniary (like the 20mm PGU-28 SAPHEI shell used on USAF, USN and USMC aircraft).
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-05-26 at 07:49.
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Old 2008-05-26, 07:58   Link #278
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If anyone open up a gun of any kind, you will find in the end, very simply designs taken to its respective max. While I understand the debate of energy weapons over kinetics. I would trust Kinetics over energy anyday. As Wild Goose said, the most complex, the more often it will break down and the more often it will fail.

Until Energy weapon have the same complexity level as your Ak-47 or M4-carbine, I will stick with Kinetic.

If you look at the AirForce they need the complex stuff. They are the only group that have to live with advance equipment to do their job. Besides they are the only ones who return to base more or less after every mission.
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Old 2008-05-26, 08:07   Link #279
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Take the M1911A1. In almost a hundred years there has been no major change to the design. It is a testament not only to Saint John Moses Browning, who got it right with the first try, but also the fact that it's simple, it works and doesn't need to be complex. Or the revolver; about the only improvements modern revolvers have over their older counterparts are better materials and ammo. In fact with guns as much as possible you want to stay away from complexity in infantry weapons; there's a reason the unsophisticated single-shot bolt action rifle is still in service even today.

More sophisticated isn't always better; I recall a senario once where a high tech networked linked force, EXFOR, went up against the lower tech members of OPFOR at the US Army's National Training Center. The OPFOR guys had less high tech toys at their disposal... and they kicked the asses of EXFOR, so much so that EXFOR was pretty much abandoned as a concept after that.

Or consider the Huey. The only differences between the new USMC UH-1Y Hueys and the old Vietnam Hueys are that the USMC Huey's just have upgraded electronics and engines; everything else is still classic Huey.
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Old 2008-05-26, 09:52   Link #280
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Yes particle weapons in the gatling category can be manufactured, but kinetic weapons are still a lot more practical for uber rapid fire.
We don't know if that is a fact in Macross, especially given the fact that Queadluun twin guns are in the gatling category and they do have a terribly high rate of fire.

I think it largely depends on economical and design issues.

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
All valks have had energy guns of some sort. The VF-19 and VF-22, despite having significant amounts of beam weapons, however, still use gatling gunpods as their primary weapons - the valk with the beam gunpod you're thinking of was the beam adapter used on Gamlin's VF-17S gunpod; the VF-19 and -22 use gunpods firing solid ammo (cased for the VF-19 and caseless for the VF-22).
The VF-22 is equipped with energy weapons, including the gun-pod, not because the gun-pod carries caseless ammunition. Furthermore, the VF-22 also has the same twin gatling beam weapon adapted from the Queadluun Rau equipped on its arms. The trade-off here though, is that it doesn't necessarily excel in overall performance when compared to the VF-19. The VF-17 has an option to equip pulse beam rifles as demonstrated in VFX-2.

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As to why there weren't any shell casings flying around: caseless ammo. The VF-22 already uses it, and caseless ammo means you get a slight increase in ammo and don't have to worry about shell casings.
Yet, the Vajra, and the Zentradi in general do not use 'ammunition', period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Not nesscescarily. We know that the humans tend to prefer kinetic weapons, and judging by the recoil on it I'd hazard a guess and say it could be a railgun, which would still work in both low power and hi-power modes. Plus there was visible recoil on the red that Mikhail shot; you don't really get those with beams. A hunk of superdense metal slamming into you, on the other hand...
It could be, I won't rule out that possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Besides, comparing "pewpewpewpewpew" or "pew-pew-pew-pew-pew" and "WHHIRRRBBRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNGGGGG", most fighter pilots would rather go for the gun with the higher rate of fire. I know I would. In dogfighting, gunfights are basically planting out a crapload of lead where you hope/think/anticipate your target will be, and your chances of scoring a hit go up with the more rounds you put out.
I think Milia in her Queadluun Rau would disagree with you about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Isn't DYRL generally considered to be as accurate to Macross as Top Gun was to the Navy?
Except the technical specs are kept intact. That, and remember, future Macross franchise tend to consider DYRL as partially canon. Evident since Macross 7.

But not even that, the Queadluun Rau have demonstrated countless times in the original Macross that their twin energy blasters not only has a rapid rate of fire, but they tend to outgun Valkyrie gunpods.

- Tak
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