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Old 2008-05-27, 12:22   Link #841
longshot
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Originally Posted by hchuang View Post
One of the more interesting character in this series is Henrietta. It is difficult to pin down just exactly who she is. She's portrayed as powerless and naive, working in earnest to avoid war best she can. On the other hand, she can be quite vengeful against her "enemies" and "traitors" and seems to understand very well the real power politic at play. To that end she sprung a trap to lure out her opponents and dealt with them swiftly and mercilessly. The war against Albion is in large part to exact revenge for the death of Wales.

All these might well be overlooked in the story if it doesn't directly affect the way Henrietta interacts with Louise and Saito.

Henrietta is at first very powerless as Queen. She has few allies in the court and the nobles do not take her seriously. Even Louise's family can openly defies her and refuse to contribute to the war effort. Therefore she needs her own power base and enlisted the service of Agnes, a commoner with no magic and no tie to the nobility.

Aside from the musketeers, Henrietta builds up her power base in the magic academy, outside the influence of other nobles. It is not surprising that Henreitta places for her most important assets, Louise and Tiffania, to remain in the protection of her other instrument, the Water Spirit Knights(?), which recruits from the students at the academy. The academy is very much her own personal "turf."

Early on, Louise is perhaps most distinctly important to Henrietta's claim to power. Louise has demonstrated firsthand the awesome power of void magic and is viewed as crucial to the war against Albion. It's not so much important if Louise can actually use her power, but she is useful as a tool to impress and suppress other nobles. To have Louise openly demonstrate her unswervingly loyal to the Henrietta would be a dramatic boost to the Queen's stature.

Henrietta certainly capitalizes heavily on the relationship by bestowing upon Louise the Queen's attention. Although Henrietta's always telling Louise how much she wishes for peace and never to use Louise as a tool of war, she has nevertheless sent Louise on very many dangerous missions. Louise is of course all too happy to volunteer her service to her best childhood friend, returning Henrietta's affection ten-fold.

In volume 14, we once again sees the same thing play out, Henrietta is once again "wishing for peace" and telling Louise and Tiffania that she doesn't wish to use them for war but yet again "things turn out differently." Also notice how Henrietta is trying to get close to Tiffania very much by playing the fact that they are cousins. Tiffania is of course hopelessly naive as well.

Louise loyalty to Henrietta has a problem and that is Saito. Saito is very skeptical about war and has a totally differently sensibility towards the "duty of nobility." And Saito, unlike Louise, has many practical Gandalfr skills and is much more reliable in actually completing missions. Louise as void user is useless without Saito.

Therefore Henrietta very much needs Saito on her side and she "worked" him over either by seduction or title of nobility. The effect: Saito certainly sympathizes with the "plight of the poor Queen" and fights in part for her sake. It is only when Saito is willing to remain by Louise's side did Henrietta finally stop seducing Saito.

All these points to Henrietta having a very manipulative side with her agenda and has a strong possibility of being the "last boss" of ZnT, in my opinion. After all the big fighting and stuff are over with, I have a feeling that Henrietta is somehow going to be the final obstacle towards the ending.
i think the cute naive henrietta we knew died when prince wales died.........i hate to say it but if shes this into war and manipulative then we have the true queen now
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Old 2008-05-27, 14:11   Link #842
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Actually as I mentioned in my post before i do not think it is only about Wales death.

Remember the whole letter incident and basically how in my opinion skillfully she got Louise into helping her to get the letter back.

I mean she came to Louise at night started talking how great friends they are (though she haven't been in touch with Louise for a very long time) then whines about how she is in trouble and though refused Louises concern and help at first, she still told what was about and even told how Louise could help her, which of course Louise did.

So I think Henrietta was manipulative even before Wales death. But after Wales death she became, more aggressive so to say, willing to sacrifice people for the sake of peace... Yet peace build on blood is never very stable...

I also second the thought that Henrietta may be the last obstacle in the novels as well... She is not evil but... she looks very manipulated to say the least...

Like she imprisoned Louise and Saito so that they would not help Tabitha but once they escaped and helped Tabitha, Henrietta started using the fact that Tabitha is her cousin and Louise became her best friend once again...

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-05-27 at 14:23.
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Old 2008-05-27, 14:37   Link #843
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I've never looked at it that way. Hmm, it's rather troubling that she is like that so much, but I've seen it before.
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Old 2008-05-27, 15:04   Link #844
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Actually as I mentioned in my post before i do not think it is only about Wales death.

Remember the whole letter incident and basically how in my opinion skillfully she got Louise into helping her to get the letter back.

I mean she came to Louise at night started talking how great friends they are (though she haven't been in touch with Louise for a very long time) then whines about how she is in trouble and though refused Louises concern and help at first, she still told what was about and even told how Louise could help her, which of course Louise did.

So I think Henrietta was manipulative even before Wales death. But after Wales death she became, more aggressive so to say, willing to sacrifice people for the sake of peace... Yet peace build on blood is never very stable...

I also second the thought that Henrietta may be the last obstacle in the novels as well... She is not evil but... she looks very manipulated to say the least...

Like she imprisoned Louise and Saito so that they would not help Tabitha but once they escaped and helped Tabitha, Henrietta started using the fact that Tabitha is her cousin and Louise became her best friend once again...
What about her motives for seducing Saito-who,alone,defetead 70000 people(how long will we have to wait before seeing it translated at baka tsuki,i'm wonder...)was she jealous of Louise and was she after his power-when i say jealous i mean to have someone so strong protecting her?
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Old 2008-05-27, 15:19   Link #845
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*snip*
Kore ha hidoi yo~, hahaha.

I've never thought of it that way, but when you mention it, it is possible.

Though for me, I just consider her an annoying hypocrite, who tends to be a drama queen, who says one moment, that she doesn't want them to get hurt, and the next moment, wants to send them out on to the front lines. So, yeah, I consider her a lot simpler, but if she turns out to be some manipulator like that, than so be it.
If she really has been manipulating the characters, then she has the best acting skills I've seen for a while, since there were some moments where she genuinely seemed to be the one manipulated.

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What about her motives for seducing Saito-who,alone,defetead 70000 people(how long will we have to wait before seeing it translated at baka tsuki,i'm wonder...)was she jealous of Louise and was she after his power-when i say jealous i mean to have someone so strong protecting her?
Well, she says that she was lonely, since Wales died and everything, and that was why she approached Saito like that, which seems to me like a reasonable explanation.
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Old 2008-05-27, 15:52   Link #846
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What about her motives for seducing Saito-who,alone,defetead 70000 people(how long will we have to wait before seeing it translated at baka tsuki,i'm wonder...)was she jealous of Louise and was she after his power-when i say jealous i mean to have someone so strong protecting her?
Securing Saito's loyalty of course. Saito is just outspoken all the way about foolishness of the whole war business and is only willing to protect Louise. He has no reason to work for the Queen other than as part of helping Louise.

Saito, despite been seen as stupid ecchi, is actually much more capable doing stuff whereas Louise is highly unreliable. Louise gambled her money away because she can't stand not having amenities. Louise has so far fumbled from one fluke to the next. It is a miracle that she is not dead already.

Henrietta very much want Saito to work for her.

However, let's not forget Saito is very much always looking for a way home and Louise is very committed to realizing that goal. That, of course, is not working towards Henrietta's end. At the very least, she can't have Louise run off far and away and possibly get herself caught by other people. Therefore, Henrietta has alot of reason to keep Saito attached and not returning home.

One thing that happened in 14 is Louise taking upon herself to strike a deal with the Pope to return Saito home. In return Louise is agreeing to work directly for the Church. I think Henrietta is again alarmed at the prospect of losing Louise and Saito, and is going to work overtime securing their loyalty.
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Old 2008-05-27, 16:04   Link #847
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I agree and disagree with you at the same time, serenade...

I agree with you about her seducing Saito mostly from loneliness, the first time she tried... But the second time she was trying to seduce Saito it was very precise afforts and even if it was influenced by her loneliness you have to wonder how she rather calmly abused her queens powers to keep Louise and Saito apart as much as possible, keeping Saito close to herself.

Plus the second time she kissed Saito she was pretending to be Louise (Though Saito realized it by the end but still..Using your best friend's outlook to seduce the one she loves is bit low...).

All these things combined, I would not be surprised if her motives would not be only her lonely heart (the second time she tried seducing, the first one was definitely emotional one) but something else as well...

Henrietta is a hypocrite without a doubt. It is hard for me to imagine how a person that read all 14 volumes of ZnT novels would still not count Henrietta as a hypocrite, as her actions and words strongly contradict.

The question is - is her hypocrisy simple and she still is naive fool inside or is she actually very manipulative character.
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Old 2008-05-27, 16:22   Link #848
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I have said it before, and I will say it again Henrietta needs to be taken out of power, whether forcefully or peacefully, it needs to happen. She is dragging her nation and its allies down a very bad path.
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Old 2008-05-27, 16:44   Link #849
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Also remember the first time Henrietta seduces Saito in the run-down inn, she is in fact in the middle of a plot to eliminate her oppositions. I was most taken aback by her comment that these people are "enemies and traitors" in no uncertain terms. She is in fact gearing up for a very brutal bloodbath in the theater. The comment illustrates that she has no intention of sparing her enemies. In the anime the other side mostly surrendered but in the novel it is clearly stated the musketeers killed a lot of people.

While in the midst of all this dastardly business, she's getting it on with Saito in the inn, which is slightly disconcerting. Perhaps she's nervous but this calculating side just betrays her typical description as cute and naive, etc, etc
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Old 2008-05-27, 17:03   Link #850
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One of the more interesting character in this series is Henrietta. It is difficult to pin down just exactly who she is. She's portrayed as powerless and naive, working in earnest to avoid war best she can. On the other hand, she can be quite vengeful against her "enemies" and "traitors" and seems to understand very well the real power politic at play. To that end she sprung a trap to lure out her opponents and dealt with them swiftly and mercilessly. The war against Albion is in large part to exact revenge for the death of Wales.

All these might well be overlooked in the story if it doesn't directly affect the way Henrietta interacts with Louise and Saito.

Henrietta is at first very powerless as Queen. She has few allies in the court and the nobles do not take her seriously. Even Louise's family can openly defies her and refuse to contribute to the war effort. Therefore she needs her own power base and enlisted the service of Agnes, a commoner with no magic and no tie to the nobility.

Aside from the musketeers, Henrietta builds up her power base in the magic academy, outside the influence of other nobles. It is not surprising that Henreitta places for her most important assets, Louise and Tiffania, to remain in the protection of her other instrument, the Water Spirit Knights(?), which recruits from the students at the academy. The academy is very much her own personal "turf."

Early on, Louise is perhaps most distinctly important to Henrietta's claim to power. Louise has demonstrated firsthand the awesome power of void magic and is viewed as crucial to the war against Albion. It's not so much important if Louise can actually use her power, but she is useful as a tool to impress and suppress other nobles. To have Louise openly demonstrate her unswervingly loyal to the Henrietta would be a dramatic boost to the Queen's stature.

Henrietta certainly capitalizes heavily on the relationship by bestowing upon Louise the Queen's attention. Although Henrietta's always telling Louise how much she wishes for peace and never to use Louise as a tool of war, she has nevertheless sent Louise on very many dangerous missions. Louise is of course all too happy to volunteer her service to her best childhood friend, returning Henrietta's affection ten-fold.

In volume 14, we once again sees the same thing play out, Henrietta is once again "wishing for peace" and telling Louise and Tiffania that she doesn't wish to use them for war but yet again "things turn out differently." Also notice how Henrietta is trying to get close to Tiffania very much by playing the fact that they are cousins. Tiffania is of course hopelessly naive as well.

Louise loyalty to Henrietta has a problem and that is Saito. Saito is very skeptical about war and has a totally differently sensibility towards the "duty of nobility." And Saito, unlike Louise, has many practical Gandalfr skills and is much more reliable in actually completing missions. Louise as void user is useless without Saito.

Therefore Henrietta very much needs Saito on her side and she "worked" him over either by seduction or title of nobility. The effect: Saito certainly sympathizes with the "plight of the poor Queen" and fights in part for her sake. It is only when Saito is willing to remain by Louise's side did Henrietta finally stop seducing Saito.

All these points to Henrietta having a very manipulative side with her agenda and has a strong possibility of being the "last boss" of ZnT, in my opinion. After all the big fighting and stuff are over with, I have a feeling that Henrietta is somehow going to be the final obstacle towards the ending.
i'm interested about what you said about henrietta power base:did she made the water spirit knight for saito or did they exist before(did she fire their previous captain so she could replace him with Saito?)?And i know saito(and maybe louise)did give up his title so he could save tabitha;so what is saito current position now-can he be considered a noble or just a knight again?
And one last question,i'm very interested about vindalf personnality:is he better than the pope and what does he think of saito?Why did he give louise back to tristain army in vol.8(wasn't his mission to cupturse her or at less to take her ring)?He tought saito was about to die so he has no reason to keep his promise;that's why i think of him as a better guy than the pope-conflicted loyalty?-am i wrong?
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Old 2008-05-27, 18:24   Link #851
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i'm interested about what you said about henrietta power base:did she made the water spirit knight for saito or did they exist before(did she fire their previous captain so she could replace him with Saito?)?And i know saito(and maybe louise)did give up his title so he could save tabitha;so what is saito current position now-can he be considered a noble or just a knight again?
And one last question,i'm very interested about vindalf personnality:is he better than the pope and what does he think of saito?Why did he give louise back to tristain army in vol.8(wasn't his mission to cupturse her or at less to take her ring)?He tought saito was about to die so he has no reason to keep his promise;that's why i think of him as a better guy than the pope-conflicted loyalty?-am i wrong?
The Water Spirits Knight was an old group that had an distinguishing history and no longer existed. The newly formed Knights are merely taking on its name. Saito is perhaps given a noble title and placed there to keep him occupied. The members seems to have the requisite magic skill but is absolutely undisciplined as a military unit. I think the value of the Knights are more in their loyalty to the Queen alone. For the real heavy lifting Henrietta much more often deploys the musketeers.

The noble title was re-instated after Tabitha was rescued.

Can't figure out the last question.
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Old 2008-05-27, 21:31   Link #852
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Also remember the first time Henrietta seduces Saito in the run-down inn, she is in fact in the middle of a plot to eliminate her oppositions. I was most taken aback by her comment that these people are "enemies and traitors" in no uncertain terms. She is in fact gearing up for a very brutal bloodbath in the theater.
The thing is, though, I'm not sure that this says as much about Henrietta herself as her upbringing and the society she grew up in. We've already seen from Louise and the other nobles that they're raised to think of their own lives as being expendable in the service of their country - with that kind of attitude, why would Henrietta be overly concerned about the lives of those who (as she sees it) are working against the country?

Moreover, as a princess and heir to the throne, Henrietta should have been brought up with a reasonable idea of plots, intrigues and conspiracies - to do otherwise would have been gross negligence on the part of her parents.

Considering all that plus Henrietta's relative inexperience in rulership, I don't necessarily think it's all that odd that she should come off cold and calculating at some times, yet pretty hapless and naive at other times - or even that she should be so quick to use her friends as tools, because that seems to me to be how their entire system of nobility (and hence government) actually works.
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Old 2008-05-27, 23:51   Link #853
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Well we could question ourselves do the guys at KGB responsible for killing so many people in soviet union?

After all they were raised to be part of the structure, which in soviet union was loyalty to the party and the leader, to the point of killing and betraying your own family.

Do the young nazis-yougend were responsible for killing jews in Hitler's Germany? They also were a part of the system.

A lot of people use system to cover up their own cruelty and bloodlust and when they are caught they say - I am not the one to blame - system is at fault.

But the fact that some people grow out of the system makes such comments less credible.

In ZnT novels Louise was able to grow up out of the system (she gave up on her tittle for saving her friend), Montmorency, Guiche, Kirche are also not what you would consider nobles that are completely dependent on the system either.

So i do not think you can everything put on the systems blame. You can break through it even if you were born in it.

The people that killed others in nazis germany or in soviet union were either too weak or not willing to step out of the system. it was hard to determine weather the person was too weak or just enjoyed killing under the cover of the system. However, the responsible ones (the ones that take the highest government positions) were all punished.

Henrietta is taking the highest possible position in her country thus her responsibility for her actions is much higher than others. Which also puts a lot of stress on her, yet when her latest decisions lead to bloodshed (though it could have been avoided) one can question if she could be held responsible for that despite the system?

I think Henrietta is more complex character rather than just a naive idiot whose hypocrisy steams only from her emotional weakness (where he says to the face one thing, but turns around - and does completely different thing) but rather at least some of her actions are calculated (killing enemies off, using Tabitha and Louise).

The latest event will make her worry without a doubt. Loosing Louise (void magician) would her a lot, so I think she will try to regain the control in one way or another. Tabitha is a problem, since no matter how hard Henrietta may press on the fact that Tabitha (Charlotte) is her cousin, it is obvious that Tabitha only trusts Saito, Kirche and Louise the most, he friends that risked everything to save her rather than the queen who imprisoned them to prevent her from saving just to keep the political stability and only became a caring cousin later.

Henrietta isnt evil and she can herself fall into the trap (like with the pope) however, a thief that had been robbed is still a thief. Henrietta, who had been manipulated, can still be a calculating manipulator herself.
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Old 2008-05-28, 00:54   Link #854
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In ZnT novels Louise was able to grow up out of the system (she gave up on her tittle for saving her friend), Montmorency, Guiche, Kirche are also not what you would consider nobles that are completely dependent on the system either.

So i do not think you can everything put on the systems blame. You can break through it even if you were born in it.
This is true; I am not trying to say that Henrietta is not responsible for her actions. She is.

What I am saying is that I don't find her actions especially shocking or unusual, in light of her circumstances and the world she lives in.

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I think Henrietta is more complex character rather than just a naive idiot whose hypocrisy steams only from her emotional weakness (where he says to the face one thing, but turns around - and does completely different thing) but rather at least some of her actions are calculated (killing enemies off, using Tabitha and Louise).
I agree with that. Henrietta is not an idiot, and she is trying to fulfill her role as queen the best way she knows how.

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Henrietta isnt evil and she can herself fall into the trap (like with the pope) however, a thief that had been robbed is still a thief. Henrietta, who had been manipulated, can still be a calculating manipulator herself.
I agree with that too. I think she's doing as much as she can to be a calculating politician; I'm just not sure she's really good enough at it to be a serious mastermind. Things could have ended up disastrously for Henrietta several times now if not for Saito, Louise and company saving the day in various unplanned and unexpected ways.
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Old 2008-05-28, 02:47   Link #855
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Sorry, Guppy, I have misunderstood you as i thought you were traying to put the blame on the system rather on Henrietta.

I do agree that this makes her actions less surprising.

However, we also have to remember what nice things she says. It makes one expect that she would act according those words, but instead she acts totally differently from what she said, being a total hypocrite.

I would understand if she would be lying to her political opponents but she is also two-faced with Louise, who should be her best friend.

I do agree that if not impossible acts from Louise and Saito she would have been in a pitch, but I do not see that as an argument that she is less calculated manipulator.

The first Louise miracle was without a doubt totally unexpected for her, but later, I think Henrietta started to believe that Louise and Saito are capable to do impossible things for her, thus using them as her trump card. So in a sense she was expecting them to do impossible things, Maybe of less magnitude but still...

For me it seems taht she either does not understand that Louise has her limits and that she burns out each time she uses her void magic more and more or she understands but still uses Louise purely as a tool.

Sure she reminds of how they are best friends each possible moment and cares for their (Louise and Saito) both health in an instant, but it doesn't stop her from using them as tools the other moment.

Again, i am not trying to portray her as evil witch or something, however I think that some people greatly overestimate her naiveté bit too much. She is portrayed as such but her actions give us another portrait of her.

In anime - sure she is what we see. But again in anime we will never see a really heartbroken/depressed Louise, nor we will see Saito pondering about the meaning of life and death (like he did in Wales arc in novels). Basically anime is for children who enjoy seeing tit-jokes every ten minutes. It doesn't try to be complex in terms of plot or characters.

Noborus ZnT novels are not the most complex light novels around here, tahts for sure, but they do deep digger than anime would ever be able to. Thats why taking Henrietta just as a naive kindhearted princess who only fell in the hands of system and evil manipulators is simplifying things too much.

I agree with hchuang, that this makes Hnerietta one of the most interesting characters to look at. sure, I do not like her as much as I did in the first books, yet it still doesn't make her a shallow character.

One more interesting thing - have anyone noticed that Henrietta is trying to build a circle of young nobles around her? I mean she is giving a rather big positions from the young nobles from academy who will become heads of their families someday. It could also be treated that she is preparing to have a loyal circle of nobles that support her in the future.

It is not secret that older family members do look down on Henrietta a little but this cannot be said about youngsters so Henrietta is using this to make them feel indebted now to ensure their loyalty in the future. Plus she is ensuring her fame between peasants as well. If everything goes right she may be a rather strong ruler in the future.

One problem is that she relies on Saito and Louise miracles bit too much. Louise is burning herself out as she is using more and more void powers without being able to rest herself and restore it properly. Saito is much more reliable at this sense, but Henrietta already failed in seducing him anyway and the latest acts by the duo may have made her little bit scared of loosing them both (plus Tabitha, is not trusting her "dear" cousin as much as she trusts Saito or Kirche).
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Old 2008-05-28, 04:21   Link #856
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Sorry, Guppy, I have misunderstood you as i thought you were traying to put the blame on the system rather on Henrietta.

I do agree that this makes her actions less surprising.

However, we also have to remember what nice things she says. It makes one expect that she would act according those words, but instead she acts totally differently from what she said, being a total hypocrite.

I would understand if she would be lying to her political opponents but she is also two-faced with Louise, who should be her best friend.

I do agree that if not impossible acts from Louise and Saito she would have been in a pitch, but I do not see that as an argument that she is less calculated manipulator.

The first Louise miracle was without a doubt totally unexpected for her, but later, I think Henrietta started to believe that Louise and Saito are capable to do impossible things for her, thus using them as her trump card. So in a sense she was expecting them to do impossible things, Maybe of less magnitude but still...

For me it seems taht she either does not understand that Louise has her limits and that she burns out each time she uses her void magic more and more or she understands but still uses Louise purely as a tool.

Sure she reminds of how they are best friends each possible moment and cares for their (Louise and Saito) both health in an instant, but it doesn't stop her from using them as tools the other moment.

Again, i am not trying to portray her as evil witch or something, however I think that some people greatly overestimate her naiveté bit too much. She is portrayed as such but her actions give us another portrait of her.

In anime - sure she is what we see. But again in anime we will never see a really heartbroken/depressed Louise, nor we will see Saito pondering about the meaning of life and death (like he did in Wales arc in novels). Basically anime is for children who enjoy seeing tit-jokes every ten minutes. It doesn't try to be complex in terms of plot or characters.

Noborus ZnT novels are not the most complex light novels around here, tahts for sure, but they do deep digger than anime would ever be able to. Thats why taking Henrietta just as a naive kindhearted princess who only fell in the hands of system and evil manipulators is simplifying things too much.

I agree with hchuang, that this makes Hnerietta one of the most interesting characters to look at. sure, I do not like her as much as I did in the first books, yet it still doesn't make her a shallow character.

One more interesting thing - have anyone noticed that Henrietta is trying to build a circle of young nobles around her? I mean she is giving a rather big positions from the young nobles from academy who will become heads of their families someday. It could also be treated that she is preparing to have a loyal circle of nobles that support her in the future.

It is not secret that older family members do look down on Henrietta a little but this cannot be said about youngsters so Henrietta is using this to make them feel indebted now to ensure their loyalty in the future. Plus she is ensuring her fame between peasants as well. If everything goes right she may be a rather strong ruler in the future.

One problem is that she relies on Saito and Louise miracles bit too much. Louise is burning herself out as she is using more and more void powers without being able to rest herself and restore it properly. Saito is much more reliable at this sense, but Henrietta already failed in seducing him anyway and the latest acts by the duo may have made her little bit scared of loosing them both (plus Tabitha, is not trusting her "dear" cousin as much as she trusts Saito or Kirche).
1.than tabitha would no trust completly her cousin when her worst enemy is her uncle is understendable,but did the novel state what she truly think of the queen(or give us indice)or is that just your interpetation?
2.what kind of"precise effort" and how did she "abuse of her power as queen" to keep saito close of her(and separate him from louise) when she was still trying to seduce him?
3.I've heard nothing of siesta in vol.14:is that because she did no follow them in romalia?I'd like to know what she tough of louise sending saito back witthout considering her feeling;in fact anything about her would be fine.
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Old 2008-05-28, 05:44   Link #857
Guppy
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Sorry, Guppy, I have misunderstood you as i thought you were traying to put the blame on the system rather on Henrietta.
I understand how I came across that way; I was trying to respond specifically to hchuang's statement that Henrietta's callousness (when acting against her internal opponents) was shocking.

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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I would understand if she would be lying to her political opponents but she is also two-faced with Louise, who should be her best friend.
I agree with you on this one; Henrietta is rather hypocritical and two-faced - and I think she herself knows this, and isn't exactly proud of it (not that that stops her, of course). I'm not necessarily surprised that she's not very open with Louise, however; if Louise knew everything, it's likely that even she would have reconsidered her loyalty to Henrietta by now.

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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I do agree that if not impossible acts from Louise and Saito she would have been in a pitch, but I do not see that as an argument that she is less calculated manipulator.
It's not that Henrietta isn't a calculating manipulator (when she wants to be, anyway) - it's just that I don't think she's all that good at it, and so I'm a bit skeptical about whether she can be a credible final antagonist as hchuang postulates. It might happen, but Henrietta will have to make one heck of a step up first.
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Old 2008-05-28, 07:19   Link #858
Darknemo2000
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Tabitha is always a rather hard to read character so you have to read her by her actions instead, and in this aspect it si pretty obvious that she trusts much more Saito or Kirche than her cousin.

As for Henrietta abusing her power. Simple things - finding Saito to do around her to keep him at her place even if there wasn't anything to do really. But Henrietta made sure he would spend more time around her rather than with Louise.

I do not think Henrietta is very good at manipulating yet either. Like she relies on Louise and Saito's miracles too much, but she can be the last obstacle given the situation.
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Old 2008-05-28, 07:56   Link #859
azziz
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Tabitha is always a rather hard to read character so you have to read her by her actions instead, and in this aspect it si pretty obvious that she trusts much more Saito or Kirche than her cousin.

As for Henrietta abusing her power. Simple things - finding Saito to do around her to keep him at her place even if there wasn't anything to do really. But Henrietta made sure he would spend more time around her rather than with Louise.

I do not think Henrietta is very good at manipulating yet either. Like she relies on Louise and Saito's miracles too much, but she can be the last obstacle given the situation.
there's a saying in french:"with a friend like him(/her)i don't need a foe";i guess it's what you think she is for saito-tachi;but i'm no sure any of you said anything about what she think of the war against the elf to "recover the holy land",did she agree with the pope?
More importantly,if i can still annoy you guy,could you give a bref summary of the encounter of saito with brimir and his elf-it's bound to have an importance in the next volume,especially when the elf will get involved.
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Old 2008-05-28, 08:20   Link #860
ArchmageXin
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by Vertiful View Post
Sorry about the bad explaination before
I kind of rushed through the whole book so I could be the first one to post the summery
Finished the book in two and half hrs:
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Originally Posted by Angrypokstick View Post
Well to answer your question. Saito is the gunner, since he is the one with full knowledge and skill to operate the tank. And as i mentioned above ,Tablitha was the loader. Professor Colbert the other person with any technical skill was the driver. Kirche was sitting in the communicaton/radio seat.(she did nothing other than to watch and cheer Colbert on ). The commander 's seat/cupola was empty most of the time, Although Later on Louise occupied the commander seat.



And upon more detailed reading. The Kiss wasn't what returned Her memory. Apparently it was the same as saito in a dream of the past. The Gandalfr rune apparently holds the memories of all past Gandalfr and their "void" masters. Saito's kiss transfered the memory back to her. And apparently even some of saito 's memory is transferd to Louise. Bottomline is now that the two can now share memories through the Gandalfr rune. For example Louise now knows what saito's mother looks like and she sees sporadic images of saito's world. And also she also knows some of the things Saito didn't want her to now, needless to say hilariousness in the forms of beating ensued.

Wait, is this memory transfer permanent? So now Louise can remember everything Saito think about at any given moment? O_O

Suicide now boy! before it is too late
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