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Old 2008-05-27, 20:26   Link #1281
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
It would be really strange if the Geass command to live caused him to gain eternal life, making him into a Geass giver.
*Facepalm*


Okay, let's finish this particular thing....


The Geass was an order for Suzaku to NEVER try and get himself killed. In other words, he is to protect himself in all dangerous situations.
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Old 2008-05-27, 20:34   Link #1282
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
*Facepalm*


Okay, let's finish this particular thing....


The Geass was an order for Suzaku to NEVER try and get himself killed. In other words, he is to protect himself in all dangerous situations.
Which, ironically enough, really fucked over his wannabe-martyr complex and helped finally force him to come to terms with himself.

Thanks, Lelouch! In the process of putting Suzaku in a life-threatening position in the first place, you really did his mind a favor!
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Old 2008-05-27, 20:36   Link #1283
EnKor
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Lelouch isn't really planning on freeing the world from Britannia's grasp so much as he is trying to make the world a better place for his sister and get revenge on his father. If he saves the world while doing it, that's wonderful. If the rest of the world goes to hell while he acomplishes his goal, he couldn't care less. I really don't see Lelouch actively fighting Britannia for the purpose of freedom and liberation as much as vengence. The freedom and liberation and things are just side benefits and if they come, then great, he will use that to further his goals, and if they don't, then thats also fine. He even states that the United States of Japan is just a means to a goal, which would be vengence on his father and a better world for his sister. If this better world for his sister means a living hell for other people, do you really think he would care?
Lelouch would pretty much have to isolate his sister from the outside world in order for that kind of scenario to be feasible. I don't think Lelouch would do that to his beloved little sister, who is already blind and unable to walk as is. But let's get back to Suzaku...
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Old 2008-05-28, 04:44   Link #1284
Sol Falling
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So if you don't want to try to save the whole world you're narrow-minded and selfish? Gee wow, way to label more than 99.999999% of earth's population. And again, why don't you guys try to provide some kind of proof that Lelouch actually believes what Zero is saying (when there are even multiple instances of dialogue which explicitly deny this).
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Old 2008-05-28, 04:58   Link #1285
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
From what I can tell Lelouch cares about himself, his sister and his revenge over everything else. If anything I'd say he's alot more selfish than Suzaku.
It's true enough that his sister means a lot to him - perhaps mor than anyone else in the world, through to say that he cares about no one else is incorrect - he has been shown to care about Kallen, his friends in the student council, Suzaku, Rolo - and a few others. His revenge is important to him as such, yes - but he has on some occassions been shown as willing to put it aside, so...

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
But I guess people really feel like treating Lelouch as some golden savior and Suzaku as the devil incarnate.
Haha... Well, IMHO the root of people's dislike for Suzaku lies in that it's sort of hard to like a collaborator, no matter how "good" his intentions are
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Old 2008-05-28, 06:05   Link #1286
Ice_Bullet
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
So if you don't want to try to save the whole world you're narrow-minded and selfish? Gee wow, way to label more than 99.999999% of earth's population. And again, why don't you guys try to provide some kind of proof that Lelouch actually believes what Zero is saying (when there are even multiple instances of dialogue which explicitly deny this).
alright.. maybe im wrong. but from my view its like that >_>. But suzaku never looks at the bigger picture don't you think? he only wants to free the japanese. why doesn't look at a bigger picture? like destroying britinnia. so that the whole world can return to peace?
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Old 2008-05-28, 08:14   Link #1287
alpie
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Originally Posted by Ice_Bullet View Post
alright.. maybe im wrong. but from my view its like that >_>. But suzaku never looks at the bigger picture don't you think? he only wants to free the japanese. why doesn't look at a bigger picture? like destroying britinnia. so that the whole world can return to peace?
I think 99.999999999% of the people of the geass world don't consider destroying brittainia single handedly a feasible route to world peace. And anyway considering the military might of Brittainia, even if he/she suceeded half of the world would be gone anyway.

(You know some leaders...they would kill the civilians just to show that any messing around with by the terrorist will simply cause more pain for the people they are trying to save)
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Old 2008-05-28, 08:30   Link #1288
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ice_Bullet View Post
alright.. maybe im wrong. but from my view its like that >_>. But suzaku never looks at the bigger picture don't you think? he only wants to free the japanese. why doesn't look at a bigger picture? like destroying britinnia. so that the whole world can return to peace?
Regardless of what Suzaku used to believe, I am now focusing on his current character flaw; Suzaku's reluctance to make decisions.

From the situation with the Assassin, we know the current Suzaku is indecisive. This is even though he is a KotR, and have been given the authority to sign death warrants. I say indecisive rather than kind, because Suzaku had no problem letting the assassin die by someone else's signature; he just doesn't want the moral responsibility of condemning a man to death.
If Suzaku was truly a kind man, he would have objected to Anya making a decision for him. But no, the man's death is okay as long as he doesn't pull the trigger.

If Suzaku had made a decision on his own, whether he pardoned the man or condemned him to the firing squad, it would still be a sign of decisive leadership. It would have been a sign he knows what he wants to do as a Britannian leader, and thus has some capacity to get what he wants as a potential future ruler of Area 11...

But he did neither.
This then, is a Suzaku who have no desire to lead.

Suzaku did not make a decision on the fate of a human's life, but instead let someone else make the choice for him. This is a definitive sign that Suzaku, even after all these episodes, had not gain any leadership potential. (Which directly mirror Lulu's inability to become less of a weakling after all these episodes.)

Suzaku will never be an effective ruler of Area 11, even if he become a Knight of One. He would try to behave like a benevolent ruler in principle, but all that will happen is all the abuse and oppression will continue because Suzaku will never do anything to stop it.

Blood spilling is only bad to Suzaku if it is on his initiative. If someone else is doing the killing, or alternatively someone had take the responsibility for Suzaku's actions by ordering him, then it is all A-Okay.
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Old 2008-05-28, 08:51   Link #1289
Stargaze
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Hmm, interesting perspective. I do quite agree with you on that Suzaku is being indecisive. I've not looked too deep into that "signing execution paper" scene all that much; your insight in this is certainly logical. Indeed at his state now, he won't have much chance of becoming Knight of One with his current attributes let alone governing Area 11.


Quote:
alright.. maybe im wrong. but from my view its like that >_>. But suzaku never looks at the bigger picture don't you think? he only wants to free the japanese. why doesn't look at a bigger picture? like destroying britinnia. so that the whole world can return to peace?
I don't think I really get what you mean by looking at the bigger picture; If it is as you said, destroying Britainnia, then I don't think that is really a better solution. Because even if he does, what is there to prevent another country or regime from rising out and become another Britainnia? Him?

I do think Suzaku is kind of narrow minded, but I can see what he is trying to do. It is, theoretically, quite effective-- breaking the cycle of history. But he just doesn't seem to have what it takes to achieve this... <.<
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Old 2008-05-28, 08:56   Link #1290
Anh_Minh
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Depends what theory you're working with. Mine is that Britania won't change its ways without a reason, and Suzaku slaughtering its enemies to go up the ranks isn't a reason.

At best, he could create a temporary haven in the area he's in charge of, but, as VCV pointed out, he's kinda lacking in the leadership department.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:03   Link #1291
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Regardless of what Suzaku used to believe, I am now focusing on his current character flaw; Suzaku's reluctance to make decisions.

From the situation with the Assassin, we know the current Suzaku is indecisive. This is even though he is a KotR, and have been given the authority to sign death warrants. I say indecisive rather than kind, because Suzaku had no problem letting the assassin die by someone else's signature; he just doesn't want the moral responsibility of condemning a man to death.
If Suzaku was truly a kind man, he would have objected to Anya making a decision for him. But no, the man's death is okay as long as he doesn't pull the trigger.

If Suzaku had made a decision on his own, whether he pardoned the man or condemned him to the firing squad, it would still be a sign of decisive leadership. It would have been a sign he knows what he wants to do as a Britannian leader, and thus has some capacity to get what he wants as a potential future ruler of Area 11...

But he did neither.
This then, is a Suzaku who have no desire to lead.

Suzaku did not make a decision on the fate of a human's life, but instead let someone else make the choice for him. This is a definitive sign that Suzaku, even after all these episodes, had not gain any leadership potential. (Which directly mirror Lulu's inability to become less of a weakling after all these episodes.)

Suzaku will never be an effective ruler of Area 11, even if he become a Knight of One. He would try to behave like a benevolent ruler in principle, but all that will happen is all the abuse and oppression will continue because Suzaku will never do anything to stop it.

Blood spilling is only bad to Suzaku if it is on his initiative. If someone else is doing the killing, or alternatively someone had take the responsibility for Suzaku's actions by ordering him, then it is all A-Okay.
Would you rather him give the order to kill off a million japanese people than to of let them go off, he already knows he's hated universally by his own people even Cecil mentioned that even though he actually saved those lives he won't be thanked or acknowledged for it but the fact still remains that for the sake of the people he love (Nunnally and Euphie) he didn't call on that order because of it, now if it were Lelouch and a million britainians he would'nt hesitate like Suzaku has to kill them off for high treason.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:11   Link #1292
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Would you rather him give the order to kill off a million japanese people than to of let them go off, he already knows he's hated universally by his own people even Cecil mentioned that even though he actually saved those lives he won't be thanked or acknowledged for it but the fact still remains that for the sake of the people he love (Nunnally and Euphie) he didn't call on that order because of it, now if it were Lelouch and a million britainians he would'nt hesitate like Suzaku has to kill them off for high treason.
If the Emperor was there, and gave the order to kill them all, Suzaku will grab a rifle and help out in the massacre. Suzaku doesn't actually MIND killing people; he just want someone else to take the responsibility.

Your argument would have made sense if Suzaku spared the assassin, or told Anya he would handle it on his own. But instead Suzaku washed his hands clean with the satisfaction that someone died without his involvement.

Suzaku will never order a massacre. But that doesn't make him a saint, as it is the ordering that he objects to, not the massacre.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:15   Link #1293
Stargaze
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Depends what theory you're working with. Mine is that Britania won't change its ways without a reason, and Suzaku slaughtering its enemies to go up the ranks isn't a reason.
Resisting evil through active non-violent resistance has been achieved by Mohandas Karamchand Gandi before so there are non violent ways of resisting. If pressured with symbolic protests, civil disobedience, economic or political noncooperation, the Japanese might be able to gain more rights, though this method cannot achieve full independence, it can prevent bloodshed.

I'm saying there are chances that Britainnia can change; it is definitely not impossible. Had Suzaku tried something like this instead of trying to do something he cannot achieve, I would've supported him (though this does make the anime quite boring indeed)
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:18   Link #1294
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If the Emperor was there, and gave the order to kill them all, Suzaku will grab a rifle and help out in the massacre. Suzaku doesn't actually MIND killing people; he just want someone else to take the responsibility.
While he certainly has a problem with taking responsibility, this is over exaggerated. If there's one thing we know about Suzaku it's that he does not like killing people; or maybe I missed him throwing a party after Anya signed the paper for him.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:24   Link #1295
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Stargaze View Post
Resisting evil through active non-violent resistance has been achieved by Mohandas Karamchand Gandi before so there are non violent ways of resisting. If pressured with symbolic protests, civil disobedience, economic or political noncooperation, the Japanese might be able to gain more rights, though this method cannot achieve full independence, it can prevent bloodshed.

I'm saying there are chances that Britainnia can change; it is definitely not impossible. Had Suzaku tried something like this instead of trying to do something he cannot achieve, I would've supported him (though this does make the anime quite boring indeed)
And Gandhi said himself, it only works if your oppressor is civilized. I don't think Britania qualifies.

And yeah, that's not what Suzaku's doing. Suzaku's supporting the system. That's why it won't change. Not thanks to him, anyway.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:54   Link #1296
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
While he certainly has a problem with taking responsibility, this is over exaggerated. If there's one thing we know about Suzaku it's that he does not like killing people; or maybe I missed him throwing a party after Anya signed the paper for him.
If Suzaku really dislike killing people, then he wouldn't be in a military where death sentences are handed out freely and easily.

It has been made clear from the most recent episode that Suzaku is taking the "see no evil" approach. Suzaku dislikes making a decision to kill people, and whether someone is innocent or guilty does not matter.

And that is precisely what Zero counted on; Suzaku's psychosis on life-or-death decision making.
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Old 2008-05-28, 10:37   Link #1297
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If the Emperor was there, and gave the order to kill them all, Suzaku will grab a rifle and help out in the massacre. Suzaku doesn't actually MIND killing people; he just want someone else to take the responsibility.

Your argument would have made sense if Suzaku spared the assassin, or told Anya he would handle it on his own. But instead Suzaku washed his hands clean with the satisfaction that someone died without his involvement.

Suzaku will never order a massacre. But that doesn't make him a saint, as it is the ordering that he objects to, not the massacre.
Well if the Emperor was there then why would any of the Britainian military need Suzaku's call to do much of anything, for one thing Gino, Guilford and the others would of just took action without hestitation, you saw how Miss Romeyer was right and ready to kill regardless if Suzaku had not of stopped her, I really thought this episode gave some thought into Suzaku's psyche that he does not want to be hold responsible for the death of others and in an honest to god sentiment who does want to be responsible, its right that Lelouch is Suzaku's polar opposite in that aspect since he killed Clovis and Governor General Calres without any remorse whatsoever(in fact he was even laughing at Calres demise) the only person that he has shown true remorse of killing was Euphie, so why Lelouch is able to move on with his hands stained in blood, Suzaku has a much harder time to coup with being a murderer.

Last edited by Silver Soul; 2008-05-28 at 10:46. Reason: misspelled
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Old 2008-05-28, 10:52   Link #1298
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
its right that Lelouch is Suzaku's polar opposite in that aspect since he killed Clovis and Governor General Charles without any remorse whatsoever(in fact he was even laughing at Charles demise) the only person that he has shown true remorse of killing was Euphie, so why Lelouch is able to move on with his hands stained in blood, Suzaku has a much harder time to coup with being a murderer.[/SIZE]
In before "Lelouch threw up after killing Clovis so it's different."

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If Suzaku really dislike killing people, then he wouldn't be in a military where death sentences are handed out freely and easily.
And like Lloyd pointed out in one episode, that's the whole contradiction of his character. It doesn't mean he likes taking lives nor that he'll stop caring the moment someone else takes the responsibility for him.
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Old 2008-05-28, 11:23   Link #1299
Silver Soul
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Granted Suzaku's character is that of confusion, the term goes why kill if you don't want to kill or for Lelouch's case why kill if you don't wanna be killed, its another one of these staments why I find this series so addicting that it actually lets you think lot about yourself compare to the charcters themselves and Suzaku seems to not fit the bill of a standard major character since his whole ideal on how everyone should lives one's life is so different from any of the chracters on this series and the whole if he doesn't want to kill why he joined the military hit the nail on the head but I can somehow symphasize more with him than Lelouch because I've already seen what kind of character he is and as episode 7 explains during the scene at Ashford Academy he would have been happy just being normal with his friends at the student cousel even if it was a lie but he realizes now that he has already pave a road in which he has people willing to follow him to the very end and must lead them to to what he promised for, Suzaku has to stick to his goal so that the death of his father would not have be in vain and it goes back to him not wanting the responsiblity of killing weigh on his shoulders since he now realize that his people don't care for their own good as long as they see results which Zero has demonstrated to them regardless if they die which is the same ideal his fater thought when Britannia irst invaded Japan.
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Old 2008-05-28, 15:32   Link #1300
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If Suzaku really dislike killing people, then he wouldn't be in a military where death sentences are handed out freely and easily.
Huzawha? I'm sorry, but there's one glaring mistake in this sentence, and that's that almost anybody joins the military because they like killing people. You'll be hard-pressed to find any military where this is the case, especially with volunteers. Almost the entire Western world relies on volunteer militaries, but none of them are filled with people who chose to because they get a high when killing others. And I somehow doubt you can make an argument that anyone joins the Britannian army for the prospect of being deliberately selected to carry out death sentences.
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