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Old 2008-02-27, 10:47   Link #221
BlackShinobi07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
It was 30% of his chakra not that all of his jutsu only had 30% of their power. And, either the Mangekyo Sharingan can not be transfered to these 30% clones, or its simply require too much chakra to use (i.e. it would take up too much of the 30% chakra in the clone). Otherwise, all of his jutsu were full strength and usable.



The fact that he can keep up with everyone is proof enough. Hell, he surprised Kakashi during their training spar in the 3rd chapter of Part II with his speed and ingenious use of clones (to divert his mid-air path, and to transform into several different weapons). His all-around stats have improved drastically since Part I, its just that he has not convincienly stacked up to Sasuke, yet.



His training with Naruto, besides creating the still mysterious "that", was devoted to using the Kyuubi. Yes, in many respects, it can be considered a waste of time now that we know that the Kyuubi's chakra can be supressed by the Uchiha and Senjuu/Yamato clan, but, presumably, at the time it made sense. What doesn't make sense is Kishimoto discussing the fact that Jiraiya only taught Naruto how to use the Kyuubi (as well as a great deal of basic foundation work which Naruto has never received) and then revealed that the Kyuubi can be supressed. That makes no sense.
Nope. Wrong. The fact that Naruto was able to land a hit is proof his overall capabilities were not at full strength.

Nope. Wrong agian. Kakashi dispathed his clones like they were nothing. As many as he could create not one was even able to touch a bell. Pitty.
There hasn't been an instant in the manga where anyone commented on a notable change in his speed at all.

Im glad you you and I ca agree his time spent with Jiraiya was a waist of time compared to the improvements seen in other characters(Sakura & Sasuke). It's never stated Naruto learned any basics. And "that jutsu" has to do with the key Jiraiya sent with the frog. Which is now useless since Naruto wont use kyuubi anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quashoko View Post
The only effect of the 30% chakra, is that he will not be able to perform high chakra jutsus. The Jutsus itachi used in yura would have been just as powerfull if itachi used them himself. This is why the 30% chakra jutsu is so powerful.


I guess this is a matter of opinion. Naruto learned things he could not do in part one, but he did not come back with flashy new jutsu which in your opinion is improvement.


Well he is able to keep up with everyone else so it must have improved. When a ninja trains, as they age, their speed increses even if they do not train to increase speed. Pre time skip, narutos speed without fox was way less than sasukes, but with fox(no tails) his speed was greater than sasukes. After time skip, narutos speed without fox is less than kakashi's but with fox(no tail), his speed is greater than kakashi's.
Probably. But the fact was that Itachi was 70% weaker than normal.

What did Naruto learn from Jiraiya that he didn't already know in part 1?

What do you mean "keep up with everyone else"? He's not faster than anyone.
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Old 2008-02-27, 11:02   Link #222
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashoko View Post
The only effect of the 30% chakra, is that he will not be able to perform high chakra jutsus. The Jutsus itachi used in yura would have been just as powerfull if itachi used them himself. This is why the 30% chakra jutsu is so powerful.
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
It was 30% of his chakra not that all of his jutsu only had 30% of their power. And, either the Mangekyo Sharingan can not be transfered to these 30% clones, or its simply require too much chakra to use (i.e. it would take up too much of the 30% chakra in the clone). Otherwise, all of his jutsu were full strength and usable.
Itahci also noted that their strength were limited, I like to believe that this is not just a Chakra issue, rather access to ability issue.

However, this doesn't take away the fact that It was an Itachi genjutsu, arguably the best Genjutsu user in the series, doing it against someone that is not very good in that area.

Not to mention, it took Sakura and Chiyo to take Naruto out of this Genjutsu.


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Originally Posted by quashoko View Post
The manga i read, kakashi says "the goukakyuu is a jutsu the uchiha clan worked out and use well. And that was the real thing." This is after naruto suggested that yura was a henge.

But Kakashi also said that there was something strange about it.

and what I read about the quote you cited of Kakashi, was just saying that the Katon Jutsu was an Uchiha jutsu, so anyone that is not an Uchiha shouldn't be doing this type of Jutsu. at least that was what I interpreted, based also on the comment made my Kakashi before, about what he felt odd on the Jutsu.

and Im not sure about what you arguing guys about Naruto speed, but I think it should be obvious that Naruto speed has increased compared to 3 years ago. this is noticed that Kakshi used Sharigan against both Sakura and Naruto in that training.
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Old 2008-02-27, 11:17   Link #223
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and what I read about the quote you cited of Kakashi, was just saying that the Katon Jutsu was an Uchiha jutsu, so anyone that is not an Uchiha shouldn't be doing this type of Jutsu. at least that was what I interpreted, based also on the comment made my Kakashi before, about what he felt odd on the Jutsu.
I was trying to say that the jutsus yura/itachi did were not powered down versions of the jutsus the real itachi would do.

Quote:
and Im not sure about what you arguing guys about Naruto speed, but I think it should be obvious that Naruto speed has increased compared to 3 years ago. this is noticed that Kakshi used Sharigan against both Sakura and Naruto in that training.
Somebody belived Kakuzu was dumbed down because naruto is too weak to beat him. This lead to talking about narutos skills.
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Old 2008-02-27, 11:22   Link #224
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Originally Posted by quashoko View Post
Somebody belived Kakuzu was dumbed down because naruto is too weak to beat him. This lead to talking about narutos skills.
well, that debate got old when it happened, it was hard to shallow on how Naruto defeated Kakuuzu, but it happened, people should need to accept that.
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Old 2008-02-27, 11:46   Link #225
quashoko
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and what I read about the quote you cited of Kakashi, was just saying that the Katon Jutsu was an Uchiha jutsu, so anyone that is not an Uchiha shouldn't be doing this type of Jutsu. at least that was what I interpreted, based also on the comment made my Kakashi before, about what he felt odd on the Jutsu.
I was trying to say that the jutsus yura/itachi did were not powered down versions of the jutsus the real itachi would do.

Quote:
and Im not sure about what you arguing guys about Naruto speed, but I think it should be obvious that Naruto speed has increased compared to 3 years ago. this is noticed that Kakshi used Sharigan against both Sakura and Naruto in that training.
Somebody belived Kakuzu was dumbed down because naruto is too weak to beat him. This lead to talking about narutos skills.

Quote:
Probably. But the fact was that Itachi was 70% weaker than normal.
The 30% chakra had no effect on the jutsu yura/itachi performed. If the real itachi was there, the only difference would have been that he will be able to use more chakra comsuming jutsus like MS.

Quote:
What did Naruto learn from Jiraiya that he didn't already know in part 1?
Read the manga without an extremely biased mind set agianst naruto. You noe seeing narutos improvements is really your own problem not the authors.

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What do you mean "keep up with everyone else"? He's not faster than anyone.
If you can not see tha change in speed pretimeskip and now, then i guess there is no need for an increase in speed because he is able to keep up with every one else; so every one else must not have improved in speed either. Or his speed was so good pretimeskip. He is faster than kakashi with the foxes power(no tails).

Quote:
Im glad you you and I ca agree his time spent with Jiraiya was a waist of time compared to the improvements seen in other characters(Sakura & Sasuke). It's never stated Naruto learned any basics. And "that jutsu" has to do with the key Jiraiya sent with the frog. Which is now useless since Naruto wont use kyuubi anymore.
I guess this is an opinion thing. For you, naruto did not come back with anything flashy, so you see it as a waste of time. For me, naruto learned importantbasic things like chakra control, and kyuubi chakra control. Naruto never said he will not use the foxes chakra, he said he will not rely on it.

Pretime skip, sakura could not do anyting, now she can do something.
Pretimeskip sasuke learned to use fire jutsu while he was still in tha academy, learned to use lighting jutsu in less than a month,and learned all those other thing inbetween, all because he is a genious. Sasuke trained with a crazy person who loves jutsu, for 2 years, he is a genious, he is powerhungry.

Quote:
well, that debate got old when it happened, it was hard to shallow on how Naruto defeated Kakuuzu, but it happened, people should need to accept that.
What i dont get is why it is so hard to swallow. Anybody who does not know how naruto fights, or who does not have super eyes would have been defeated eaxct same way.
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Old 2008-02-27, 12:16   Link #226
BlackShinobi07
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Originally Posted by quashoko View Post
Somebody belived Kakuzu was dumbed down because naruto is too weak to beat him. This lead to talking about narutos skills.

Read the manga without an extremely biased mind set agianst naruto. You noe seeing narutos improvements is really your own problem not the authors.

If you can not see tha change in speed pretimeskip and now, then i guess there is no need for an increase in speed because he is able to keep up with every one else; so every one else must not have improved in speed either. Or his speed was so good pretimeskip. He is faster than kakashi with the foxes power(no tails).

I guess this is an opinion thing. For you, naruto did not come back with anything flashy, so you see it as a waste of time. For me, naruto learned importantbasic things like chakra control, and kyuubi chakra control. Naruto never said he will not use the foxes chakra, he said he will not rely on it.

Pretime skip, sakura could not do anyting, now she can do something.
Pretimeskip sasuke learned to use fire jutsu while he was still in tha academy, learned to use lighting jutsu in less than a month,and learned all those other thing inbetween, all because he is a genious. Sasuke trained with a crazy person who loves jutsu, for 2 years, he is a genious, he is powerhungry.


What i dont get is why it is so hard to swallow. Anybody who does not know how naruto fights, or who does not have super eyes would have been defeated eaxct same way.
With all his experience kakuzuz shoudn't have fell foe such a simple trick. And with his power Naruto was out matched. Its for these reasons this fight is so contraversial. Naruto shouldnt have been able to beat Kakuzu but thats thanks to plot-no-jutsu he managed to pull off the simplest trick in the manga on someone whos foughtthe likes of the 1st hokage.

The FRS is Narutos only improvement. And its a gamble at best since his arm will suffer equal damage.

What do you mean "keep up with everyone esle"? I he couldnt even track Sasuke movements when they reunited in chapter 306.

Not didnt come cack with anything impressive and thats the main reason everyone syas his developments was the most disappointing.

No they wouldnt have been defeated the same way. Its an insult to the other characters to even say they would have been caught by that simple strick.(assuming they haven't been dumbed down.)
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Old 2008-02-27, 12:29   Link #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07 View Post
With all his experience kakuzuz shoudn't have fell foe such a simple trick. And with his power Naruto was out matched. Its for these reasons this fight is so contraversial. Naruto shouldnt have been able to beat Kakuzu but thats thanks to plot-no-jutsu he managed to pull off the simplest trick in the manga on someone whos foughtthe likes of the 1st hokage.

The FRS is Narutos only improvement. And its a gamble at best since his arm will suffer equal damage.

What do you mean "keep up with everyone esle"? I he couldnt even track Sasuke movements when they reunited in chapter 306.

Not didnt come cack with anything impressive and thats the main reason everyone syas his developments was the most disappointing.

No they wouldnt have been defeated the same way. Its an insult to the other characters to even say they would have been caught by that simple strick.(assuming they haven't been dumbed down.)
naruto has always defeated his enemies with simple tactics. because they underestimate them. sometimes when we over analyze and over plan we fall for the simplest trick because we never thought our openent would have done something so simple.

for example lets say I'm playing football and I'm a running back, at some point during a running play I come face to face with a linebacker that has been playing way longer than me. his years of experience tell him that I'm going to juke left then spin right. so he angles his body to counter act the juke it. I on the other hand never put that much thought into it and just keept running straight. but because he was already preparing for me to juke I runn pass him. its not hat he is dumbed down he was actually to smart
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Old 2008-02-27, 12:38   Link #228
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With all his experience kakuzuz shoudn't have fell foe such a simple trick. And with his power Naruto was out matched. Its for these reasons this fight is so contraversial. Naruto shouldnt have been able to beat Kakuzu but thats thanks to plot-no-jutsu he managed to pull off the simplest trick in the manga on someone whos foughtthe likes of the 1st hokage.
Quote:
No they wouldnt have been defeated the same way. Its an insult to the other characters to even say they would have been caught by that simple strick.(assuming they haven't been dumbed down.)
It being a simple trick does not mean it is useless. kawami is also a simple trick but it is always effective. Kakuzu just did not know naruto would use his real self as a distraction because no sane ninja would do that unless they were desperate. There was naruto, kakashi, yamato, and those other two. There was no need for naruto to do something as dangerous as using his own body as a distraction. Anyone who does not know naruto would not think he would use his own body as a distraction when he does not need to.

Quote:
The FRS is Narutos only improvement. And its a gamble at best since his arm will suffer equal damage
Your opinion. I disagree. What about just the futon: resengan.?

Quote:
What do you mean "keep up with everyone esle"? I he couldnt even track Sasuke movements when they reunited in chapter 306.
I am not saying naruto is one of the fastest in the series, i am saying his speed has increased. Maybe you see naruto as shit because you keep comparing his skills in different areas to sasuke. Naru nin vs Sasu nin, Naru tai vs Sasu tai, Naru gen vs Sasu gen. Naruto does not need to be sasuke. He does not need what sasuke has. If he had that then sasuke will not be special anymore. And no one could track sasukes movements at that time.

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Not didnt come cack with anything impressive and thats the main reason everyone syas his developments was the most disappointing.
I understand this. Naruto did not comback with anything impressive, but he improved
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Old 2008-05-27, 23:47   Link #229
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Naruto has shown alot of strength and power and he has been training really hard and Kakashi seemed to have noticed that Naruto is not that same little boy he use to be.
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Old 2008-05-28, 04:11   Link #230
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Kakashi said Naruto may have, in a sense, surpassed him. Take that as you will but that doesn't mean he's a better ninja then Kakashi or that he would beat Kakashi in one on one. Because Kakashi was unable to master a technique as complicated as Fuuton Rasenshuriken, in a sense, Naruto has surpassed him. I'm sure Naruto will surpass him completely one day but if we really are to take Kakashi's words literally, I don't think he has. Additionally his ultimate technique, while incredible, has yet to be completed and inflicts damage upon himself.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:51   Link #231
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Naruto stronger than Kakashi now? sure, to an extent

Kakashi has stated a couple times that Naruto has a shit ton more stamina than himself, so he's already ahead in that game.

Naruto succeeding where Kakashi failed is not something to be snuffed at. (reading this line alone makes you go "bwuh? Kakashi failed?")

All fighters have their strengths and weaknesses and Kakashi's biggest weakness is that he can't sustain a long-winded battle.

Last edited by Mr. DJ; 2008-05-28 at 18:58. Reason: wording
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Old 2008-05-28, 14:46   Link #232
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Well Kakashi did train and became powerful himself,though what I meant was Kakashi felt Naruto getting stronger and that he might surpass him one day and maybe he has passed him in a way.
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