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Old 2008-05-30, 22:46   Link #841
gabbytay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Marxism is supposed to be "scientific", meaning that religion is worthless in the face of class oppression.

Communism itself isn't atheist, but its view of the world helps enforce atheism.
Thx for full explaining it
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Old 2008-05-30, 22:47   Link #842
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by gabbytay View Post
Communist are not atheists. But forced by their goverment.
I don't think there's a difference there...

The communist ideology acknowledges no religion. Its ideological founder Marx, who's more of a 19th century social scientist than a revolutionary ideologue, argued that "religion is the opium of the masses" (I'm paraphrasing here), which he means in a class-struggle context in that the upper classes will try to keep the masses in line through religion, among other things.

So communists in the Marxist tradition are technically atheists. I don't presume to know about all the other communist ideologies out there -- there are plenty which are more or less "extinct," namely never becoming political movements in the same that Marxism became; and sometimes the line between a "socialist" and a "communist" blurs as well -- but I believe most are in agreement that religion, which to them tends to represent yet another tool of the bourgeois oppression as well as the relic of the despised ancien régime, isn't something that has a place in their social engineering ideas.

In other words, Marxists consider religion to be competing against them for influence over the masses.

Edit: Kang Seung Jae beats me to it.
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Old 2008-05-30, 22:49   Link #843
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Edit: Kang Seung Jae beats me to it.
You explained it better.
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Old 2008-05-31, 09:19   Link #844
WanderingKnight
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Disclaimer: I'll be the first to admit that my way of thinking is heavily influenced by Marx, because it is. However, I'm trying to appeal to common sense here and not to ideologies.

Quote:
In other words, Marxists consider religion to be competing against them for influence over the masses.
Okay, now let's be completely honest: Throwing labels like "Marxism" and "communism" aside, which tend to polarize opinions, could you really deny that what you just said has been exactly the case throughout history? I'm not blaming religion here, but it has been traditionally used to manipulate the masses (and it's still used! Just listen to Bush say they're on a holy mission given to them by God himself).

I'd expect not only a "communist" or a "Marxist" to realize this, but anyone with a couple of grams in gray matter (and this is regardless of personal religious affiliations).
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Old 2008-05-31, 09:26   Link #845
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Disclaimer: I'll be the first to admit that my way of thinking is heavily influenced by Marx, because it is. However, I'm trying to appeal to common sense here and not to ideologies.



Okay, now let's be completely honest: Throwing labels like "Marxism" and "communism" aside, which tend to polarize opinions, could you really deny that what you just said has been exactly the case throughout history? I'm not blaming religion here, but it has been traditionally used to manipulate the masses (and it's still used! Just listen to Bush say they're on a holy mission given to them by God himself).

I'd expect not only a "communist" or a "Marxist" to realize this, but anyone with a couple of grams in gray matter (and this is regardless of personal religious affiliations).

hear hear. im hardcore right wing and i agree with you completely. youre right that it doesnt take a communist to understand this. whats more, its extremely effective. not that im trying to say that religion is simply a tool for manipulation though, just that religion, like everything else, has its ugly side.
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Old 2008-05-31, 10:24   Link #846
Slice of Life
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
"religion is the opium of the masses" (I'm paraphrasing here), which he means in a class-struggle context in that the upper classes will try to keep the masses in line through religion, among other things.
It's not that simple. To quote him
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Marx
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people
Not "tool of the oppressor" but "sigh of the oppressed creature" which sounds much more like a "drug" produced by the proletariat itself or at least chosen by rather than forced upon them.
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Old 2008-05-31, 11:28   Link #847
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It is true that Religion was the dominating force during the dark - middle ages of Europe, no one stood against the church, and the church basically controls the king, as his coronation requires the churches blessing. It was corrupt and kept the peasants in their place.
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Old 2008-05-31, 11:43   Link #848
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This seems like the better place to insert this article than in the News thread. Regardless what I think about his time (both the good and the bad) as Prime Minister for the UK, I wish Mr Blair every luck in his new endeavour.

Laying a new foundation for religious faith

Quote:
New York (May 31, 08): Mr Tony Blair seems like a man energised. He was visibly delighted when his old friend Mr Bill Clinton, the former president of the United States, introduced him at the launch of Mr Blair’s new Faith Foundation.

"I have learnt that there's not only life after politics," Mr Clinton said. "There's also good life, if you find something you truly believe in. [Mr Blair’s] found something he believes in."

There are those who will be cynical about Mr Blair's new project. There will be plenty who will wonder whether a man so many associate with war is the best person to try to foster global peace and understanding. It is obvious however - when you speak to Mr Blair about the subject - that this is indeed something he is very driven about.

"It is a massive undertaking, but how important is it? If all the good tunes are with the extremists … if they're the ones out there with the strong message and those of us who believe that religious faith is about peaceful co-existence are silent we've got a real problem on our hands. This isn't an incidental or second order issue, this is fundamental to how the world develops," he said.

In short, Mr Blair believes that faith is the new battleground. He believes it's been hijacked by extremists - from all religions, he's careful to say. Faith, he says, needs to be claimed back by those who believe in co-existence.

In New York there were congratulations for the education projects envisaged, and for the multi-faith work that is proposed on combating malaria and poverty. Can it work though? That is the big question. Those who have closely followed Mr Blair in recent years often say he's good on the theory, the grand ideas, less good on the detail.

This though is a project that he envisages lasting several years, if not decades. Mr Blair hopes to unite the world's religions. It is, he says with a shrug, perhaps what he plans to concentrate much of his energy on for as long as it takes.

He has set himself a difficult task.

- BBC News
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Old 2008-05-31, 14:32   Link #849
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Well, Blair would be right to say that the extremists are hijacking and manipulating certain members of religion, but I don't really like the sound of his idea. It sounds like he wants to counter-balance the extremists by whipping up the other religious people into a frenzy of peace. It sounds nice, but boy is that dangerous. We all have different ideas of what peace is and how to accomplish it. If it really goes to an extreme and he really is successful in creating unity among the world's religions, I foresee a nasty rift between the religious and the non-religious. The religious would probably see themselves as being on a mission of peace, and the non-religious would then be viewed as people who are getting in the way of that goal. Let's hope that the religious keep in mind that you don't need to be religious to want peace or to help others.
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Old 2008-05-31, 15:31   Link #850
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Interesting topic. I kind of had fun reading all of your posts -- I guess religion has always been interesting for me to read about.

My religion is Wicca. I feel like such a hippie when I say that, but yeah.
I also have some Christian beliefs, too. I suppose what I believe is just a mix of a bunch of different beliefs. But it's mostly Wicca.
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Old 2008-05-31, 16:29   Link #851
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I'm Hindu, but I'm not very religious at all.
I've always questioned the existence of god, and still do. I dont believe in a heaven or hell either D:
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Old 2008-05-31, 16:41   Link #852
Shay
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Originally Posted by Shinigami_Mello View Post
I'm Hindu, but I'm not very religious at all.
I've always questioned the existence of god, and still do. I dont believe in a heaven or hell either D:
Ok, forget religion or what you've been taught for a second; because its all just man made propaganda anyway.

Do you believe in a higher power? Do you believe there is something unexplainable till after death?
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Old 2008-05-31, 17:14   Link #853
oompa loompa
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Originally Posted by Shinigami_Mello View Post
I'm Hindu, but I'm not very religious at all.
I've always questioned the existence of god, and still do. I dont believe in a heaven or hell either D:
weeeeeee im hindu too.. while i hardly follow the religion at all, i do believe there is some sort of higher power.
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Old 2008-06-01, 11:56   Link #854
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I am muslim too.

the problem not religion, the problem is the people, damn just want to kick there butts for what are they doing.

I respect others as long as they do the same.
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Old 2008-06-01, 13:26   Link #855
Onizuka-GTO
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My religion is Anime.



alright, if you want to be technical, its a mix of Confucius Philosophy & Shintoism

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Old 2008-06-01, 17:18   Link #856
dodonpa
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My religion is Shintoism and a Buddhism. It doesn't belong to a
specific religion and the sect. There are considerably a lot of ori
-ginating in Shintoism and the Buddhism when thinking about
the custom, the event, and sense of values. If my religion is con
-cretely enumerated, it becomes this two.
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Old 2008-06-02, 10:37   Link #857
Xrayz0r
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Scientific Theory can be adjusted or tossed out. Einstein showed just how powerful the test of reason is last century. Theories must withstand the test of *reason* which includes testability and the potential to disprove. Even evolution can be tested by uncovering new facts from ancient record or, more recently, with the staggering advances in biology, genetics, molecular biology, and other fields. The poor creationists haven't even found that section of the bookstore yet - so their theory is totally toasted along with flat earth theory (they just haven't noticed it yet).
Creationists are not open to reason, and they don't care for it. People preferring comfort over truth cannot be converted, even if all the evidence in the world points to the contrary. Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 2008-06-02, 16:29   Link #858
Mena
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I'm an agnostic, this isn't really a "religion".
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Old 2008-06-02, 16:37   Link #859
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Originally Posted by Mena View Post
I'm an agnostic, this isn't really a "religion".
If "Jedi knight" can be classified as an official minor Religion then i don't see why you can't classify "Agnostic" as one.

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Old 2008-06-02, 16:48   Link #860
Mena
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If "Jedi knight" can be classified as an official minor Religion then i don't see why you can't classify "Agnostic" as one.

Jedi Knight a religion? didn't know that :0! Well agnosticism is similar to atheism, and well it's not a proper religion.
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