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Old 2004-04-13, 01:42   Link #101
musouka
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Quote:
the daughter worries me, is she some sort of oracle? she repeats "kill...kill" but i just have this hunch that in addition to knowing the truth about that night in ep 1 we may see something else from her. Or is that WAY the hell off base? (hence my use of the word occult earlier, which is perhaps inappropriate at this point).
Minor spoilers:

Spoiler:


Monster isn't really a "supernatural" series. As someone above mentioned, there isn't really anything in this series that couldn't feasibly happen in real life, which, to me, actually makes it all the more horrifying.
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Old 2004-04-13, 01:57   Link #102
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by box-chan
yes, perhaps she does speak some sort of ugly truth, just not truth with a capital "T". Seems its the truth of her family and their little ideology.

-Unless you hail from that group of literary philosophers that doesnt believe in A Truth...but then again deconstructionists want to call everything a "text" so that is also not very accurate. Myself? I'm more of a marxist literary critic for what its worth, which does leave some room for Truth, but only as it is meted down from those in charge.
Hmm... then be prepared, the whole series actually somewhat reinforces the idea that human lives are not equal after all. To quote Blade of the Immortal (another great manga series that could become a great anime), "it's not wrong to think the lives of your beloved ones value more than the lives of strangers". MONSTER also have a similar undertone, as Tenma himself
Spoiler:
It's really a moral grey zone that whether the lives of beloved ones are more important than the lives of strangers. There are stories praising heroes endangering the whole world for the sake of their loved ones, but then there are also stories praising heroes sacrificing their loved ones for the sake of the world... the director is not much different, he just values the lives of the ones who can give him more benefit higher than the lives of others.
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Old 2004-04-13, 02:30   Link #103
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Actually, to the repetition of "kill" of that little girl, I have a question or two...

I've never read the manga series and do not know the long term implication of the repetition. However this is something I've picked up in translations of both ToTan and A-Keep.

The Japanese line spoken from the girl is "Koroshite... Koroshite."
For ToTan, it's "Kill, Kill..."
For A-Keep, it's "Please Kill, Please kill."

**The following is mere speculation on the Japanese language and I welcome any and all constructive criticism and correction.

I thought usually the usage of "-shite" implies asking, requesting, and/or begging? From the other posts on this thread, it seems that "Koroshite" is a part of a longer message? It that is the case, without major spoilers, would any manga fans comment on which interpretation of "Koroshite"--"Kill" or "Please kill"-- would fit better in the [speculated] final and complete message?

Thanks much.
Oh and there's a blonde woman looking over her shoulder in the OP scene, guess who that could be ?

Last edited by Melazoma; 2004-04-13 at 03:48. Reason: Girl --> Woman
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Old 2004-04-13, 02:41   Link #104
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Spoiler for for that girl:
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Old 2004-04-13, 03:12   Link #105
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"Please kill" doesn't sound right to me, although for all intents and purposes it's the same as "kill."

As to the meaning behind this quote, it will be revealed. But not for quite a long time.
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Old 2004-04-13, 04:07   Link #106
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Old 2004-04-13, 04:12   Link #107
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I just cant wait to see more of this, such a character study! I think I'll enjoy this "grey zone" as dreamless puts it. Since the worth of a human life can be measured it should be interesting to see what Tenma values as the series progresses.

and now I'm thinking; an opera singer and a diplomat...these people were ostensibly to be saved for the greater good correct? has tenma disrupted the natural order? Would it have been better for the hospital to get that extra money? I'm not so sure I can be behind him, but it looks like the show is trying very hard to bring the viewers' sympathies in line with his condition. Creepy stuff, this series. I want to see Tenma in the same position as the director: deciding who must live and die based on the merits of each life. I guess thats a bit twisted though.
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Old 2004-04-13, 04:40   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by box-chan
I just cant wait to see more of this, such a character study! I think I'll enjoy this "grey zone" as dreamless puts it. Since the worth of a human life can be measured it should be interesting to see what Tenma values as the series progresses.

and now I'm thinking; an opera singer and a diplomat...these people were ostensibly to be saved for the greater good correct? has tenma disrupted the natural order? Would it have been better for the hospital to get that extra money? I'm not so sure I can be behind him, but it looks like the show is trying very hard to bring the viewers' sympathies in line with his condition. Creepy stuff, this series. I want to see Tenma in the same position as the director: deciding who must live and die based on the merits of each life. I guess thats a bit twisted though.
As the obligatory stereotype of a television show, the director is quite very clearly choosing the merits of each life based on how those merits apply to and benefit himself. I'm not saying that stereotype is good, just that it is a necessary evil in this medium so as to give definitions to the choices and consequences of Dr. Tenma. It certainly is possible in reality that morally grey matter within a medical facility such as funding issues come to a simple matter of choice. But as I posted a bit earlier, any grey-matter "choice" and potential sympathy given to the director clearly get the water muddy--if not muddier now that the "cutting of research fund" issue has been brought up--when we examine Tenma.

As stereotypical as television or most the modern visual media go for the sake of definition, I just cannot see director Heinenman as anything but a money-grubbing traitor to his Hippopotimus(spelling error) Oath.
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Old 2004-04-13, 05:07   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melazoma
As stereotypical as television or most the modern visual media go for the sake of definition, I just cannot see director Heinenman as anything but a money-grubbing traitor to his Hippopotimus(spelling error) Oath.
well, that in itself brings about a question about values of human lives. So is the director's life value less than others now he is a bad guy? is it okay to kill those dirty doctors/bad guys? is that killing them could be beneficial to the society or Dr. Tenma?
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Old 2004-04-13, 07:53   Link #110
walter clamans
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The anime menu has 3 types of meals, it seems :

-lots of easily digestable shows, ready to swallow, nice and crispy baked air.
You might feel relieved, but you'll grow hungry again soon.

-some balanced meals, with all the right ingredients for your tummy. A little burp and you're satified till your next meal. The sun is shining, the weather is clear... aahh

-few shows are real jawbreakers, making you chew over and over again.
Your stomach can't put up with it, and will protest for several hours, but hey, at least you know you've eaten.

Well (yes, after only 1 episode), Monster belongs in the third category, for sure.
The tension, the drawing style,... even only little has happened so far, I'm already experiencing cramps. I must say it's been a long time since I've had those. FMA had me choking sometimes

Last edited by walter clamans; 2004-04-13 at 08:12.
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Old 2004-04-13, 11:08   Link #111
musouka
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Personally, I think it depends upon what factors you are using to "choose" who will live or die. It seems as though the director is almost choosing based upon class lines. Rich, famous people are obviously "more important" and therefore deserve more effort to save them, especially since it will result in good things for the hospital.

Even considering Tenma's growth
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-13, 11:28   Link #112
dreamless
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well, the criteria to evaluate human life's worth is not the matter in discussion here, the point is, after all, for all people, they all have their own criteria to evaluate the values of different people's lives. So in the end, human lives are not equal in the eyes of any given person. I mean, sure, maybe in the eyes of something inhuman, the lives of all humans are equal, maybe even the value of all lives are equal in the eyes of something inhuman (ie. for the Monster, the life of a human worth as much as the life of an ant) but that's a bit hypocritical since we are mainly talking about humans here...
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Old 2004-04-13, 11:41   Link #113
musouka
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What I was trying to express was the difference between Tenma and the director's mode of operations, since both are "playing god" in a limited way. One is doing it for mostly selfish reasons, and the other, at least outwardly, isn't. It could be the only difference is that the director is more honest, though.
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Old 2004-04-13, 11:51   Link #114
dreamless
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okay, seems we got a bit messed up here about what the point we are discussing here

1. Is Eva's "human lives are not equal" statement correct?
2. Is Tenma a better human being than the director?

For me,

1. yes
2. yes

And actually the answer to the second question is suppoerting the answer to the first question, since I think Tenma's life surely values more than that director's
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Old 2004-04-13, 11:51   Link #115
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I maybe the only person here who is more excited about the legendary musician David Sylvian taking part in the ED song.

It's also probably because I know how this is going to end as I have read the manga. On the other hand, since I do love Urasawa Naoki's works, I'll probably continue to watch this for the one and a half year...
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Old 2004-04-13, 12:03   Link #116
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Who's David Sylvian? I'm surprised that you are surprised that no one has mentioned or experssed excitement over this artist... I don't follow the much of the new music (anything post-1980s) scene as it is Anyone informed with the lastest pop chart or such?

As far as the ED song is concerned... I did like it as soon as it started, not because it's in English, but because the song's slow, and quiet--almost tranquil-- melody couple with the images of a storybook-style Jack-o-Lantern freaked the hell out of me. But as I listened to the end... there's no resolution? No "finish" as it were to the last note of the song--that alone left a weird taste in my mouth.

Any information is appreciated^^
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Old 2004-04-13, 16:21   Link #117
lilitu93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melazoma
Who's David Sylvian? I'm surprised that you are surprised that no one has mentioned or experssed excitement over this artist... I don't follow the much of the new music (anything post-1980s) scene as it is Anyone informed with the lastest pop chart or such?
Sylvian is an artist from the 80s. Well, his career pretty much took off then, though he started in the late 70s. He was first a member of the group Japan, and then he went solo in the early 80s. Although Japan were "New Romantic" before it really took off, his solo career has been a lot more "arty", and he's worked with people like Ryuchi Sakamoto, Robert Fripp, and Holger Czukay. (I'm expecting all of those names to produce a "who?" reaction, but one lives in hope.)

To be honest, I'm not surprised that not many people have heard of him--he was bigger in the UK (and I take it Japan) than in the US, and he hasn't ever had a high profile in the US. He also hasn't done anything "pop" since the mid-80s at the latest. Also, many of the posters on this board are probably too young to know about him, since his last release with a lot of publicity was in the mid-90s (the CD with Fripp), and it's not the kind of thing most really young people would be into.

I've been a fan of his since I was in junior high (in the 80s), though I'm not as hugely into him as I used to be, and I was excited to hear a song by him, so kj1980 isn't the only one happy to hear the ED. I just wonder if that's from his latest album, as I've only heard one track from it so far, and that wasn't it. The ED is a good song, though, and it's somewhat typical of his more mellow tracks, so if you like it, it's worth seeking out his other works. Of his solo material, Secrets of the Beehive is my favourite, though all have their moments.
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Old 2004-04-13, 23:35   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
I maybe the only person here who is more excited about the legendary musician David Sylvian taking part in the ED song.

It's also probably because I know how this is going to end as I have read the manga. On the other hand, since I do love Urasawa Naoki's works, I'll probably continue to watch this for the one and a half year...
i don't know about him but i definitely didn't like the ED song,it reminded me of the wolf's rain's opening which i can't stand.i've read maybe half of the manga and i must admit that watching the anime is not as fun .Urasawa Naoki really is a great mangaka!
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Old 2004-04-14, 10:53   Link #119
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Originally Posted by CompShrink

I am very glad that so many have enjoyed our release, and I welcome feedback, even negative, if it is constructive. As for those waiting for Anime-Kraze, I hope you at least give us a chance, if you have enough bandwidth to do so.
Yes, after looking at both Akeep and your version, I really can't tell much of a difference, I will get Akraze version later and do a final comparison and decide.
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Old 2004-04-14, 11:14   Link #120
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilitu93
Sylvian is an artist from the 80s. Well, his career pretty much took off then, though he started in the late 70s. He was first a member of the group Japan, and then he went solo in the early 80s. Although Japan were "New Romantic" before it really took off, his solo career has been a lot more "arty", and he's worked with people like Ryuchi Sakamoto, Robert Fripp, and Holger Czukay. (I'm expecting all of those names to produce a "who?" reaction, but one lives in hope.)

To be honest, I'm not surprised that not many people have heard of him--he was bigger in the UK (and I take it Japan) than in the US, and he hasn't ever had a high profile in the US. He also hasn't done anything "pop" since the mid-80s at the latest. Also, many of the posters on this board are probably too young to know about him, since his last release with a lot of publicity was in the mid-90s (the CD with Fripp), and it's not the kind of thing most really young people would be into.

I've been a fan of his since I was in junior high (in the 80s), though I'm not as hugely into him as I used to be, and I was excited to hear a song by him, so kj1980 isn't the only one happy to hear the ED. I just wonder if that's from his latest album, as I've only heard one track from it so far, and that wasn't it. The ED is a good song, though, and it's somewhat typical of his more mellow tracks, so if you like it, it's worth seeking out his other works. Of his solo material, Secrets of the Beehive is my favourite, though all have their moments.
I was only four at the time when Sylvian made his debut as a solo. So, the first time I listened to Sylvian was an album called "Gone To Earth" in middle school. A senpai gave me a couple of cassette-tapes that he recorded off the LP. The album was great, especially the "Silver Moon" track, that I instantly fell into his deep aesthetic voice.

I'm also excited Sylvian will be doing a "David Sylvian JAPAN TOUR 2004" from April 23-27th. I already got my tickets to go to the April 24th showing at the Showa Women's University. I am also very excited that when I learned we are also getting former Japan member Steve Jansen too!
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