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Old 2008-06-04, 07:25   Link #481
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
@Vindi89
On the other hand, EVERYTHING Naruto has, it's due to someone getting out of his ways to help him. (Kyuubi, Mizuki telling him about the scroll for the bunshins, Jiraiya stealing him from Ebisu, Yamato controlling the kyuubi chakra).
So far, we have yet to see Naruto train / study / do something on his own. And most likely, it won't ever happen since he got an Uchiha power up and has the key coming to him.
That's a pretty harsh view of Naruto. Allow me to bring you back to the light

Kyuubi- Originally just a burden, now it's a double edge sword making his life the target of super powered criminals and possibly shortening his natural lifespan. If anything everyone else (except Madara) benefited from Kyuubi being sealed inside Naruto, because if it's sealed, it can't be summoned by Madara. He's paid the price and will continue to pay the price for Kyuubi's presence, why is it wrong for him to use Kyuubi's powers to protect himself? It was given to him at birth, it might as well be considered an ability he was born with.

Scroll of the bushins- It took his own understanding of the scroll to learn its contents, regardless of if he was given the location by someone else.

Jiraya- The fourth was trained by Jiraya also, and last I checked everyone needs a mentor.

Yamato- Blame Jiraya for messing with the seal and weakening it. Besides having the strongest demon inside you does justify having help to control it's possibly limitless chakra.

Everytime Naruto trained, even though the Kyuubi gave him the means to speeding up that task, it was his own determination and understanding that got him to the finish line. During the Rasengan training, he burned the skin of his hands creating the chakra ball and refused to give up. He kept going even through the night. During the FRS training, Kakashi commented it wasn't the training method alone that allowed him to achieve the results so quickly, it was a combination of his own determination to save Sasuke.

Last edited by Vindi89; 2008-06-04 at 08:03.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:27   Link #482
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Yeah, but actually Itachi cared for Sasuke and had long terms plan for him.
Here he is helping Naruto merely because he is trash who can't live up to his words (about saving Sasuke and stuff) but doesn't give a fuck about him.

Besides, Naruto is going to beat Sasuke with the help of Itachi while Sasuke refused Itachi's eyes ...
Just because naruto was not able to deal with Akatsuki level character's like Orochimaru, sasuke and itachi, he is not a trash. Beside some grow later in their life unlike child prodigies like sasuke. Besides kishi himself stated that naruto is mostly identified with himself including the jump-suit that he wears (kishi used to wear it when he was a kid).

As for naruto beating sasuke with just an uchiha power up, is there anyone in the entire manga who could go against uchiha's without this power up. it is not something that is wrong with naruto being helpless it means that in the entire naruto world no one including kyuubi and other immortal summons are not a match for a kid with magic eyes. The problem is with the uchiha hax.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:38   Link #483
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Anyways Sasuke's power ups are also forced on him, but he has also stuff on his own. (Katon, variations of Chidori, top notch taijutsu, nature maniupulation unknown from Orochimaru).
On the other hand, EVERYTHING Naruto has, it's due to someone getting out of his ways to help him. (Kyuubi, Mizuki telling him about the scroll for the bunshins, Jiraiya stealing him from Ebisu, Yamato controlling the kyuubi chakra).
So far, we have yet to see Naruto train / study / do something on his own. And most likely, it won't ever happen since he got an Uchiha power up and has the key coming to him.
That's a rather bland view on things. Let's view it from a different perspective:

Were Sasuke's boosts justified?

-Katon: Uchiha trademark, while not only limited to Uchiha, he'd bound to have trained these themselves. Though without the knowledge he wouldn't have known of them. Orochimaru must have helped here. I think this was justified.
-Chidori and variations: A technique practically given to him by Kakashi, its variations would have been impossible if not for the original. Questionable, but since the variations look severely complicated (I'm damn sure Kabut had a hand in helping these, concidering how much they look like his scalpels), I'm inclined to say this is justified.
-Taijutsu: Copied from Lee/Kakashi/Orochimaru/whomever else he fought with/against. Dunno, seems given to him.

Okay, so most of Sasuke's boosts you listed seem justified, lets move on to Naruto.

Were Naruto's boosts justified?


-Kyuubi: He suffered a good eleven years of loneliness and hatred, and is hunted by a group of the most powerfull criminals who walk this world for something forced upon him. 'Scuse me if I label this justified.
-Mizuki: And he still stole the scroll from under the Sandaime's nose all by himself. A Genin. No wait, he wasn't even a Genin yet. Justified.
-Jiraiya: How is this not justified? Everything he learned from Jiraiya he learned on his own. Sure, Jiraiya gave him hints and the like, and the basics, but everything from water walking to learning the Rasengan was learned by Naruto and Naruto alone. Nobody... say... poked his head?
-Yamato: Similar to Jiraiya, it was still Naruto who learned. Saying this is not justified means you're rejecting the 3 years Sasuke spend under Orochimaru, in which case we can scrap quite a lot of techniques from Sasuke's list as well.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:51   Link #484
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kabuto ? scapels? katon? orochimaru?taijutsu?given to him? i think you are a little sided...or bias...or whatever the term is...
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Old 2008-06-04, 08:06   Link #485
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Merely observing. Taijutsu we know he copied from Kakashi, who in turn copied from Lee. That was given to him. The katon were most likely learned from scrolls, which were provided by Orochimaru (similar to how Rasengan was provided to Naruto by Jirayia) and concidering how much the sword-like manipulation of Chidori resembles a long scalpel, it would be most likey that Kabuto helped in that department, like how Kakashi and Yamato helped Naruto with his Rasen Shuriken.

This was merely an observation to provide a different perspective from Rahan, who claimed that Naruto had everything handed to him whereas Sasuke was the prime example of effort and training.
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Old 2008-06-04, 08:19   Link #486
tatami
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Merely observing. Taijutsu we know he copied from Kakashi, who in turn copied from Lee. That was given to him. The katon were most likely learned from scrolls, which were provided by Orochimaru (similar to how Rasengan was provided to Naruto by Jirayia) and concidering how much the sword-like manipulation of Chidori resembles a long scalpel, it would be most likey that Kabuto helped in that departmend, like how Kakashi and Yamato helped Naruto with his Rasen Shuriken.

This was merely an observation to provide a different perspective from Rahan, who claimed that Naruto had everything handed to him whereas Sasuke was the prime example of effort and training.
eventho sasuke is able to copy taijutsu, he cannot use it unles he trains his body.he worked it himself to be able to use it and before orochimaru he was already had a lot of taijutsu moves apart from lee.(fight with naruto at hospital, fight with naruot at vote, etc)so you are being manipulative...even if he copied a lot of taijutsu moves he had to train his body to be able to use them.

katon is uchiha signiture move, he had it when he was so young and even before orochimaru he had low/mid level katon jutsus even to amaze kakashi.he used it against orochimaru too. he trained himself about katon. and we heve never ever seen orochi using any katon either.being manipulative again I guess?

chidori variations are not similar to scalpels, they are more like needles and a long sword.kabuto being a medical nin , i dont think he can give advise on a tech he doesnt use and probably dont know (chidori).and to think that orochimaru didnt know that sasuke can use that kind of tech , i doubt that kabuto would know about it.
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Old 2008-06-04, 08:27   Link #487
Keroko
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eventho sasuke is able to copy taijutsu, he cannot use it unles he trains his body.he worked it himself to be able to use it and before orochimaru he was already had a lot of taijutsu moves apart from lee.(fight with naruto at hospital, fight with naruot at vote, etc)so you are being manipulative...even if he copied a lot of taijutsu moves he had to train his body to be able to use them.
Sasuke already proved that wrong when he used half of Lee's move in the second Chuunin exam, and the remainder of an entire style not even a month later. That aside, Kakashi was the one who showed it to him, basically handing him an entire fighting style he learned in little more then a month. I'd say that qualifies as 'handed to him'

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Originally Posted by tatami View Post
katon is uchiha signiture move, he had it when he was so young and even before orochimaru he had low/mid level katon jutsus even to amaze kakashi.he used it against orochimaru too. he trained himself about katon. and we heve never ever seen orochi using any katon either.being manipulative again I guess?
So you're saying that Orochimaru, who's ambition is to learn every technique in the world, doesn't know fire techniques?

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chidori variations are not similar to scalpels, they are more like needles and a long sword.kabuto being a medical nin , i dont think he can give advise on a tech he doesnt use and probably dont know (chidori).and to think that orochimaru didnt know that sasuke can use that kind of tech , i doubt that kabuto would know about it.
You might want to describe it as a katar, more accurate. Longswords are weapons you hold in your hand an swing, his Chidori variant is used to stab much like a katar. Held like on too. Anyway, this was flimsy I'll admit, but the first time I saw Sasuke use it I was immediately reminded of Kabuto's scalpels. Now, I'm more then willing to cast this speculation aside, but if what you are hinting at is true, and he learned nothing under Orochimaru, but did it all by himself, then why did he go to him in the first place?

On another note, I really don't like you calling me manipulative. I would like not to be pesonally assaulted when holding a simple debate.
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Old 2008-06-04, 09:39   Link #488
tatami
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Sasuke already proved that wrong when he used half of Lee's move in the second Chuunin exam, and the remainder of an entire style not even a month later. That aside, Kakashi was the one who showed it to him, basically handing him an entire fighting style he learned in little more then a month. I'd say that qualifies as 'handed to him'



So you're saying that Orochimaru, who's ambition is to learn every technique in the world, doesn't know fire techniques?



You might want to describe it as a katar, more accurate. Longswords are weapons you hold in your hand an swing, his Chidori variant is used to stab much like a katar. Held like on too. Anyway, this was flimsy I'll admit, but the first time I saw Sasuke use it I was immediately reminded of Kabuto's scalpels. Now, I'm more then willing to cast this speculation aside, but if what you are hinting at is true, and he learned nothing under Orochimaru, but did it all by himself, then why did he go to him in the first place?

On another note, I really don't like you calling me manipulative. I would like not to be pesonally assaulted when holding a simple debate.

omg you are livin in a fantasyworld. It has been said so many times that sharincan can copy it but if the body is not able to do the trick its no use.kakashi showed him the chidori.sasuke was already top class in academy in all areas.

no i am saying that sasuke doesnt need him to learn katon jutsus.he could have camu up with the techs cuz he is familiar with katon for a long time.

he did learn/train under oro , his speed,summons,usage of CS efficiently cames from his training.but kabuto didnt teach him the chidori sword thingy. sasuke created it himself even orochimaru didnt know about it.
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Old 2008-06-04, 09:57   Link #489
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omg you are livin in a fantasyworld. It has been said so many times that sharincan can copy it but if the body is not able to do the trick its no use.kakashi showed him the chidori.sasuke was already top class in academy in all areas.
Please read correctly. Like I said before, Lee's words were rendered invalid the moment Sasuke used Lee's move. Remember how the first time Sasuke saw Lee fight he couldn't keep up with his body? And yet not even six days later, he used the exact same technique he only saw with his Sharingan against his oponent in the preliminaries. Unless you are saying that Sasuke improved that much in only six days (of which he spend some time unconsious too) there should be no way he would have been able to use Lee's technique in the exact same fashion with the exact same speed he saw Lee doing. This shows that despite Lee's claims, the Sharingan can, and will allow the user to use techniques that are above the user.

Thereafter, and this is the point I am trying to prove, Kakashi showed Sasuke Lee's entire fighting style. All Sasuke had to do was watch and he was able to use those techniques. An entire fighting style someone took years to master, and all Sasuke had to do to learn it was watch. The greatest part of learning a fighting style does not involve training your body to be stronger and faster (though that is an important part too) it involves knowing and learning how to do the moves correctly. Sasuke circumvented that step entirely. That's not just getting 'handed to you' that is 'handed to you on a silver platter'

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no i am saying that sasuke doesnt need him to learn katon jutsus.he could have camu up with the techs cuz he is familiar with katon for a long time.
Even though its easier just to ask Oro? Granted its possible, but it would take far more time, and with Sasuke being the 'more power nau' type, wouldn't it be more logical if he just asked Oro to show him a few?

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he did learn/train under oro , his speed,summons,usage of CS efficiently cames from his training.
Which is any different from Jiraiya training Naruto... how?

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but kabuto didnt teach him the chidori sword thingy. sasuke created it himself even orochimaru didnt know about it.
Touché. I had forgotten about that one.

Edit: Another point just came to me. Kyuubi was noted to be one of the things Naruto was 'helped' with. But what about Sasuke's Sharingan? Doesn't that fall in exactly the same category as the Kyuubi? Sasuke didn't even have to pay a price for it like Naruto. Though I suppose if you count the Uchiha Massacre as a 'price' he might have...
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Old 2008-06-04, 10:17   Link #490
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i am not writing about sasuke and naruto i am just writing about how sided your opinions are regarding sasuke.

in 6 day anything is possible in narutoverse. sasuke cannot use lees taijutsu moves the moment he copied them.his speed and muscles had to be on same level for such things.because of that sasuke only used parts of lees taijutsu.it has been stated so many times that if your body cant keep up u cannot use techs. sasuke got his fighting abilities from training no matter how you look at it. its not like ok i will learn hidden dragon today , copy from orochimaru paste to sasuke and tadaa he knows hidden dragon.its not like that.

it is easier to ask oro but it is more wise to learn different jutsus as summons kinjutsus snake hand cuz he already had the insight of katons. its important to have a wide arsenal to use on different areas rather than having 1 ultimate tech (as seen in naruto.)
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Old 2008-06-04, 11:22   Link #491
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i am not writing about sasuke and naruto i am just writing about how sided your opinions are regarding sasuke.
Well the entire point of the initial post was to offer a different view, now wasn't it?

"That's a rather bland view on things. Let's view it from a different perspective"


Rahan's post was basically 'Sasuke is the greatest ninja, look at what he did himself. Naruto only relies on help' My perspective was the reverse, basically stating that without the many people that helped him (Naruto, Kakashi, Orochimaru and more recently Itachi) Sasuke wouldn't be any better of either.

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in 6 day anything is possible in narutoverse.
Oh yes, I forgot. I forgot that Sasuke's body can basically say 'screw you' to the latest chapters that paint Naruto's Kage Bunshin to be a highly advanced and dangerous training technique which still takes far longer then six days. I forgot that Sasuke is so überhax that he can completely ignore both that technique and its downsides and increase his physical abillities from 'impossible' to 'doable even while close to fainting from pain and exhaustion' in six days with no time for training said copied techniques whatsoever.

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sasuke cannot use lees taijutsu moves the moment he copied them.his speed and muscles had to be on same level for such things.because of that sasuke only used parts of lees taijutsu.it has been stated so many times that if your body cant keep up u cannot use techs.
You may want to change 'so many times' to 'once, by someone who does not have the Sharingan' because as far as my memory goes, Lee was the only one who said that. And he was proven wrong too.

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sasuke got his fighting abilities from training no matter how you look at it. its not like ok i will learn hidden dragon today , copy from orochimaru paste to sasuke and tadaa he knows hidden dragon.its not like that.
*shakes head* Wrong technique, Yamada relies on the experiments Orochimaru used on his body, it's more aking to a bloodline then a technique. A better comparison would be, say, Sasuke encounters Kisame, Kisame uses a random water technique, Sasuke looks at it with the Sharingan, copy/paste, Sasuke knows said water technique. Including moves required, chakra that needs molding, and handseals. Instantly.

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it is easier to ask oro but it is more wise to learn different jutsus as summons kinjutsus snake hand cuz he already had the insight of katons. its important to have a wide arsenal to use on different areas rather than having 1 ultimate tech (as seen in naruto.)
It was also wiser to stay in Konoha and train there, thus removing the threat of hunters on your tail and staying at the side of one of Itachi's targets, thereby increasing your chance of encountering Itachi. But even though it was the wiser choice, that didn't stop Sasuke from leaving, now did it? I think we can rule out what is 'wiser' from the list. Copying the techniques from Orochimaru is faster, so that is what Sasuke would have done.
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Old 2008-06-04, 13:30   Link #492
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Well the entire point of the initial post was to offer a different view, now wasn't it?
This different view just so happen to be almost completely wrong. Keep going though, it's not every day I see someone trying to depain Rahan as a Sasuke fan.
In about a week Sasuke passed from being crushed by Zabuza's water clone to destroying a dozen of them in a split second and Naruto's KB training compressed more or less 20 years of training in about a week, that's shonen power inflation for you, time is irrelevant to improvement.
I find funny the very idea of justification of "power boost" in this kind of story.

Anyway the Sharingan doesn't allow its user to use techniques requiring higher physical capacities than the user possesses, that's why Sasuke wasn't as smart as Shikamaru and as fast as Gai with as much chakra than Naruto.

Quote:
it's more aking to a bloodline then a technique. A better comparison would be, say, Sasuke encounters Kisame, Kisame uses a random water technique, Sasuke looks at it with the Sharingan, copy/paste, Sasuke knows said water technique. Including moves required, chakra that needs molding, and handseals. Instantly.
And he wouldn't be able to use it because he didn't train to change his chakra into water and maybe because he doesn't possess enough chakra for said jutsu.
To use a bloodline doesn't mean you aren't using techniques, it means the technique you use can only be done thanks to a particular set of inherited physical ability.
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Old 2008-06-04, 13:45   Link #493
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This is just soo super lame. Why didnt Yondaime Hokage or Jiraiya split their powers?? eh? That would make Naruto an superbaby. I really really dislike this idea of sharing powers. So easily...training wouldnt be needed anymore. With these kind of simple powerups. Yondaimes OWN power would be enough for Naruto. I'll bet Itachi gets popped back alive just like Orochimaru.

What an lame method to keep both characters alive and make them stronger...
The only ever character who could give his powers to others is in fact Itachi. Looking at his achievments it is very clear that Itachi is the greatest genius ever seen in action. There might be others who reached Itachi's level of genius but Kishimoto never did show them in real action, i mean Yondaime and the 1st hokage were never shown doing their best.
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Old 2008-06-04, 14:13   Link #494
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By the way i think Sasuke was handled a bit wrongly..why give him an instant kill jutsu instead of a major damage one so that Naruto's progress can then be less drastic? Because obviously if Sasuke has an instant kill jutsu (MS) he wont be able to kill Naruto so it is rendered useless automatically. Better give him another version of Amaterasu or something that makes damage you know so you bring out some major defence jutsu for Naruto to even things out rather than a cancellation from Itachi.
Well, Kishimoto did the same mistake with Naruto and the FRS.
the FRS was meant to allow Naruto to catch up with Sasuke, so how exactly learning a jutsu he can't use against Sasuke would allow him to catch up ?
And why the heck replacing his only A-rank jutsu ? It's not like Naruto knew so many jutsus that what he needed was to upgrade them. Naruto would have been immensely stronger if instead of concentrating on the FRS, he had learned an array of B or C-rank fuuton jutsus. Not to mention he wouldn't have been banned to use them.
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Old 2008-06-04, 14:31   Link #495
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Confirmed spoilers.

Spoiler for Chapter 404:
The pesky problem with control the kyubi could be solved...that would fill in the gap I was talking about and thus leave the jutsu to come new. Since this powerup came from itachi, I would venture a guess and say it was so.
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Old 2008-06-04, 14:33   Link #496
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Come on guys (and gals), we already have a Chapter 403 thread open. Let's talk about the new fun and exciting adventures of Naruto and Friends in that thread .
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Old 2008-06-04, 17:51   Link #497
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Does anyone else think that Sasuke may actually be pretending to be on Madara's side?
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Old 2008-06-04, 18:01   Link #498
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not pretending but using him as madara uses him too, common interests...
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Old 2008-06-04, 18:37   Link #499
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ms is enough to face regular kyubi so no problem for 4 tail naruto. and to think that he can cut the link...kyubified naruto against sasuke is a bit cheesy...
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Old 2008-06-05, 07:31   Link #500
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ChojinLocke & Vindi89 I moved your discussion into the chapter 403 thread where it belongs.
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