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View Poll Results: What was a lie?
Madara's brother willingly gave both his eyes? They couldn't trade? Sounds fishy to me 8 33.33%
So now Mandara says he's reformed. Considering his Akatsuki career, that's not very likely 8 33.33%
Madara DIDN'T summon Kyuubi? Why did others say its appearance was suspicious then? 14 58.33%
Someone can override the Hokage and order a clan slaughtered? This couldn't be an official mission 4 16.67%
They wouldn't send one person to destroy an entire clan! Itachi even admited he wasn't that good 6 25.00%
Itachi loved his brother over everyone else but tortured him instead of taking him to safety? 2 8.33%
Madara has omitted several important facts about this matter that are inconvenient for him 17 70.83%
Others, indicate in your post 2 8.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-06-03, 09:05   Link #1
Yogi
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Now that Mandara's complete story is out, how much of Madara's words are true? The basic premise is that since Madara and Itachi give out conflicting stories, one of them MUST be lying. The question remains, which parts of Mandara's story seems likely and which parts seem unlikely?

Last edited by Hunter; 2008-06-03 at 09:26.
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Old 2008-06-03, 09:44   Link #2
tatami
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seems true to me but i wonder why kyubi attacked the village...
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Old 2008-06-03, 10:46   Link #3
Xrayz0r
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Now that Mandara's complete story is out, how much of Madara's words are true? The basic premise is that since Madara and Itachi give out conflicting stories, one of them MUST be lying.
Yeah, we know. Its already been confirmed Itachi's version of events was a lie.

So that's that, then.
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Old 2008-06-03, 10:51   Link #4
HiroInazuma
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I think Itachi must be lying to keep Sasuke in the dark about the truth so that he would still see the Uchiha in the same light and keep his innocence and to stop him from believing Madara but now that his innocence is gone, Itachi's act was all in vain, also Zetsu said himself that Itachi wasn't dodging attacks that he could easily evade before. Also Madara even admitted that he attacked the village in revenge and that he willingly accepted to help kill the clan, also the kyuubi may have appeared from the malice and hatred built up in Konoha between the Uchiha and Senju
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Old 2008-06-03, 20:57   Link #5
Ryuujin
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I think that "I had nothing to do with the fox attacking" thing is bullshit, and quite a bit of the rest is probably a distorted version of the truth...
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Old 2008-06-03, 21:49   Link #6
Sabaku Kyu
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Don't remember Madara ever mentioning to Sasuke that he had reformed, I'm not sure that should be in the poll...

Anyways, I agree with Ryuujin that Madara not having anything to do with the Kyuubi 16 years attack ago is a lie. Madara is shown using the Kyuubi at VoTE in the battle with Hashirama, but Madara doesn't mention that when describing the battle to Sasuke, probably because it would make it that much harder to convince Sasuke he had nothing to do with the second attack.

I also have doubts about Madara's brother willingly giving up his eyes. Itachi's version seems much more realistic--that someone who was going blind would be pushed to do something desperate like stealing eyes. But we saw Obito give an eye for Kakashi, so I'm not sure about this one.
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Old 2008-06-03, 21:59   Link #7
Slave0fLife
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The Amaterasu-implant + the last words are proof that Itachi was indeed good. This much is practicaly certain. We will hopefully know what Itachi said to Naruto in their encounter, that might show some more proof.

Madara's "I didn't have anything to do with Kyubi" I also think is BS, as is the "my brother willingly gave me the eyes" story.
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Old 2008-06-04, 02:22   Link #8
Xrayz0r
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First it's like "I exhausted every resource within my grasp.. friends, my brother"

and then it's like "my brother gave his eyes willingly".


It's not a contradiction.. but it sure doesn't look like he implied the same thing there.
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Old 2008-06-04, 17:12   Link #9
filthydani
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I think he said the truth except for the kyuubi
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Old 2008-06-04, 17:37   Link #10
ChojinLocke
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The historical accuracy of the facts is accurate. The reasons behind the history and motives of individual players are mostly/all lies and manipulations.
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Old 2008-06-04, 18:17   Link #11
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChojinLocke View Post
The historical accuracy of the facts is accurate. The reasons behind the history and motives of individual players are mostly/all lies and manipulations.
Agree 100%. The chronological events are undoubtedly true, rather it is Madara's opinions and interpretations of the chronological events that are false or at least extremely biased.
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Old 2008-06-05, 07:59   Link #12
Hunter
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1/I'm not sure if Madara's brother willingly gave his eyes but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, if that was a lie it was just to present himself in a better light for Sasuke but since he also flat out stated to have a hand in killing the clan it doesn't seem particularly useful. Maybe to create a link with Sasuke with all his avenger/brother issues though but with the way he was holding his arm tight as he told this it seemed genuine enough.
2/I don't see where the reformed part comes from, Madara said he wanted revenge on Konoha and the Uchiha, he already had what he wanted with the Uchiha and he doesn't seem to have changed his mind with Konoha, in fact he appears to be quite succesful in turning Sasuke against the village.
3/The most probable lie of them all indeed but I'm not completely certain it wasn't true, of course I don't believe it was just a freak occurence (though the Kyubi was said several times to appear over and over in history as a natural catastrophe) but there could be another player still hidden in the shadow or someone like Danzou could have found a way to make it appear somehow in order to have Yondaime killed, the Uchiha framed and as result to be that much closer to power.
4/Anyone no, but it seems the Hokage's rule isn't absolute, he has to deal with his two advisors and at last back then with the commander of the Anbu who still appear to have a lot of political power even though he isn't in charge anymore. I'm guessing the Hokage has to comply when he is outvoted by the rest of Konoha's government.
And while it was a cover op since the beginning, the Data Book always had Itachi with one unknown S-class mission. We know what this mission was now.
5/It's possible Danzou had Root ready to finish the job had Itachi been killed after "downsizing" the Uchiha significantly enough for his troop to take out the survivors quietly, maybe he even counted on that so no Uchiha would survive at all, but with Itachi finding and making a pact with Madara it wasn't necessary -nor possible in Itachi's case.
6/The way Itachi treated Sasuke is indeed mind blowing but quite frankly I don't think Itachi was completely sane. The effect of war he witnessed as a child traumatized him enough to actually accept to slaughter his own family rather than allowing the possibility of a future conflict and I don't think killing them all made him any better.
There might be another reason for his actions though, maybe he thought Sasuke absolutely needed to obtain the MS to take care of Madara eventually or something like that.
7/Most probably.
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Old 2008-06-05, 08:33   Link #13
SeanQ
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it's all lies...the reason for itachi crying was because he got some dust in his eyes.
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Old 2008-06-05, 09:02   Link #14
Slave0fLife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
6/The way Itachi treated Sasuke is indeed mind blowing but quite frankly I don't think Itachi was completely sane. The effect of war he witnessed as a child traumatized him enough to actually accept to slaughter his own family rather than allowing the possibility of a future conflict and I don't think killing them all made him any better.
I actually identify with the reasoning Itachi had. For example, if there were to be a war in the magnitude that Madara said, and having the knowledge of what the clan planned to do + their motives, I don't think I would put the lives of my family above the millions of others. Although I believe everyone does everything only for his/her satisfaction, and family is important, if I thought my family was doing or going to do something horrible in my point of view and that it would end in that kind of war, I think I would stop them - whatever it took.

I put the words/expression in bold because this is what I think now, rationally, not being in that situation - I have no idea if the emotional impact of being in the situation would change my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanQ View Post
it's all lies...the reason for itachi crying was because he got some dust in his eyes.
No, it's actually because Itachi is, in fact, a crocodile. He was crying because he was eating ninja-gummy bears
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Old 2008-06-05, 09:57   Link #15
Yogi
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I will be making two posts on this matter. This one will look at events from a logical view, while the other will look at things from a literary view.

Here are the parts of Mandra's store I find suspicious.

1. His brother willingly gave his eyes

Personally, I would think that trading eyes (thereby giving each person a single Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan) would have been a better solution. Assuming it was not possible, remember that the Mangekyou Sharingan requires you to kill your closest friend. Would someone who would kill their closest friend for power be the type to willingly give his eyes for another, or the type to take power for himself by force?

2. The Uchiha clan was marginalized and placed in an inferior role

The Uchiha are one of the founding clans of the village, and they wield an immense amount of military might. You see they are very well off with their own complex. Are we to seriously believe that they could be marginalized? More likely there was some actions performed to balance the power of the clans (such as Uchiha being in the Police Force, but not the ANBU) which was interpreted by Mandara as marginalization, since he wants the Uchiha to reign supreme.

3. The Kyuubi attack 16 years ago was a complete coincidence

Mandara doesn’t like Konoha, he knows how to summon the Kyuubi, and people have mentioned that the Kyuubi appearing then looked suspicious. It’s circumstantial evidence, but it doesn’t look good to him.

4. Itachi was sent on an official mission to assassinate the entire Uchiha clan, which was done over the Hokage’s head

There are just way to many factors here. First, the Hokage couldn’t override an order to wipe out one of the major clans of the village and that he couldn’t or wouldn’t sabotage the attempt. Second, they expected one person to do it, a person who was part of the clan they wanted to wipe out, and that he wouldn’t fail, lose his nerve, or decide he’d rather kill his leaders than his own parents. Third, that killing an entire clan down to it’s last child is considered a reasonable response to the leadership planning a coup. Fourth, that Itachi would telegraph his attempt beforehand by getting into a fight with his clan members when he (presumably) doesn’t want to kill them all.

What seems more likely is that, if an order was given at all it was given behind the Hokage’s back by the more extreme factions of Konoha with questionable legality (like Root). In addition, they must have some reason to believe that Itachi wouldn’t decide he’d rather not kill his parents that week. Combined with the fight and comments about “losing hope for this pathetic clan” and it’s likely that Itachi wasn’t as opposed to the order as Mandra made him out to be. Plus, there was no way Mandara could know of Itachi’s inner conflict unless Itachi told him, and Itachi just doesn’t seem like the type of person that talks about his feelings.

5. Itachi did everything for Sasuke out of love

It’s clear that Itachi has some sort of master plan for Sasuke, and that master plan hinged upon Sasuke not listening to Mandara. It’s also possible that Itachi threw the fight against Sasuke, or that he was trying to win and only implanted the Mangekyou Sharingan when he knew he was going to die. In any case, Itachi wanted Sasuke to be strong.

It’s just that if Itachi was doing so out of love, any one of us could think of several dozen different ways he could have gone about it that would have been . . . less traumatizing. Remember, Mandara wouldn’t know about Itachi’s feelings unless Itachi tells him. He could be embellishing, guessing, or just making the reasons up.


Finally, it’s clear that Mandara has his own agenda in telling Sasuke what he did, and since Sasuke now wants to destroy Konoha we can be pretty sure what that agenda is. We also know he’s very good at fooling people (almost no one guessed that Tobi was the Akatsuki Leader before the reveal). Combined with the fact that he talks about things he shouldn’t know about (Konoha top secret missions and Itachi’s feelings) and I think we can conclude that his story is a distorted and biased version of the truth at best, and outright fabrications at worst.


Of course, logic and literature often don’t always go together. For example:
Spoiler for Harry Potter:
Hence, my next post will talk about the literary implications of Mandara’s story.
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Old 2008-06-05, 10:44   Link #16
tatami
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about trading eyes vs madara taking/his brother giving eyes :

I think they didnt know that MS had a disadvantage as going blind. madara was the best of the clan, his brother might gave his eyes for the clan success...but trading may be not a choice cuz madara was blinded at the moment...may be a normal trade would work...2 ms changing hosts
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