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Old 2008-05-12, 22:46   Link #41
Burner of Anime
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I suspect one of the biggest drawbacks of cloning natural born humans is how messy our genes are compared to a zent. The protoculture has had many thousands of years to hammer out the details on the zentradi genome in order to make them effective as warriors and robust for micloning and the cloning process in general.

The human survivors had to face the fact that they were outnumbered by giant, radiation resistant and vacumm sucking super soldiers who were armed to the teeth. The only reason why mankind isn't dead and gone is because the zentradi like us too much Small consolation when a race has been driven almost to extinction. Thing is, the friendly zents are just a small fraction of those who don't know about culture and would usually shoot first with planet buster weaponary

On Gender:

IMO, the reason why there is an all women bridge crew is from the 10 years of world war in order to form a single world government. Not enough balls to fill the iron room by the end of it.
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Old 2008-05-30, 16:12   Link #42
Isegrim
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Kyuun Kyuun, Kyuun Kyuun... sheesh, I hope this song doesn't appear in Macross:Frontier anymore. Exsedol Folmo imitating Minmay is just ridiculous, especially as he seems to enjoy it .
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Old 2008-06-11, 20:43   Link #43
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Seven episodes in now of the original Macross. I love the battles more than what's in Frontier, as well as the overall situation Macross faces. There's some nice strategic depth, I love the tough choices Global frequently has to make, and the constant gambles with alien and unfamiliar technology (though I don't really understand the need to fly back to the island before using the Fold System). Ideally they'd spam the main cannon, but they keep having to improvise and there's an emphasis on the improvisions generally sucking quite a bit.

I can't tell if Minmei is really strong or really crazy. And what's up with Misa regressing to a twelve year old mentally just because she so happens to find her old crush's room? Are women just nuts or what?

I also had to face fault a bit when Hikaru jumped into a horde of battlepods and Ger-walked out of it unscathed. I was hoping there wouldn't be any of that kind of bravado in the original series, and it was pretty disappointing when my hopes were dashed.
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Old 2008-06-11, 20:49   Link #44
Tak
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Couple quickies...

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Ideally they'd spam the main cannon,
Well, in short, they can't. It takes forever to charge, and besides, many Zent ships have that capabilities, as well. Soon, you will find the Zents are just f**king with them.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
I can't tell if Minmei is really strong or really crazy. And what's up with Misa regressing to a twelve year old mentally just because she so happens to find her old crush's room? Are women just nuts or what?
Well, we were never told extensively of the story behind Misa and her 'ex' (if thats an appropriate word to use). But we do know that her 'ex' died in Mars. Needless to say, being in the same room as her 'ex' could prove to be quite emotional for Misa.

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I also had to face fault a bit when Hikaru jumped into a horde of battlepods and Ger-walked out of it unscathed.
Welp, start counting. You will soon find Hikaru to be a 'Valkyrie-trasher'.

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-11, 21:32   Link #45
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Well, in short, they can't. It takes forever to charge, and besides, many Zent ships have that capabilities, as well. Soon, you will find the Zents are just f**king with them.
What I meant though is that there's usually a trade off when it comes to managing Macross's systems. Like the Dadelus attack was stupid, they should never try to do it again, but it seemed to be the only thing they could do at the time.

I just find it silly how Macross's desendents are mimicing her, when it did alot of things out of harsh, unforgiving, necessity, not because it was ideal.

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Well, we were never told extensively of the story behind Misa and her 'ex' (if thats an appropriate word to use). But we do know that her 'ex' died in Mars. Needless to say, being in the same room as her 'ex' could prove to be quite emotional for Misa.
Yeah, but the thing is she was like twelve at the time if her appearance in the flashbacks is any indication (she's two feet shorter, and has little to no chest to speak of). A grown woman getting worked up enough to resolve to die just because she's in her childhood crush's room is nuts. Minmei at least had two weeks of uncertainty with the prospect of rats carrioning her starved corpse before she gave into that kind of despair, however briefly.
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Old 2008-06-11, 22:18   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Seven episodes in now of the original Macross. I love the battles more than what's in Frontier, as well as the overall situation Macross faces. There's some nice strategic depth, I love the tough choices Global frequently has to make, and the constant gambles with alien and unfamiliar technology (though I don't really understand the need to fly back to the island before using the Fold System). Ideally they'd spam the main cannon, but they keep having to improvise and there's an emphasis on the improvisions generally sucking quite a bit.
They flew back to the island as a feint - to attract the Zentradi attention to the surface, and to fold away to Moon-orbit. This and many other early incidents point to how poorly the humans understand the technologies that they're working with; hence all the improvisations.

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I can't tell if Minmei is really strong or really crazy.
She's both. She has extremely strong coping mechanisms for just about any situation, but she also has lots of blindspots where she just doesn't look at things the way most people would. In fact, this is explicitly explained as a device to differentiate Minmei from normal girls.

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And what's up with Misa regressing to a twelve year old mentally just because she so happens to find her old crush's room?
It's not really a case of "regressing". Misa had know for several years that Riber was probably dead. She was finally given a chance to find out the truth of the matter, and the message from the Mars Base gave her the false hope that he might still be alive. Finding out the truth, and confirming that he'd been long dead put Misa into a moment of weakness, and she just had trouble coping at that very moment.
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Old 2008-06-11, 22:30   Link #47
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They flew back to the island as a feint - to attract the Zentradi attention to the surface, and to fold away to Moon-orbit. This and many other early incidents point to how poorly the humans understand the technologies that they're working with; hence all the improvisations.
It's just plain cracked how the bugs became mainstay features in all future incarnations.

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She's both. She has extremely strong coping mechanisms for just about any situation, but she also has lots of blindspots where she just doesn't look at things the way most people would. In fact, this is explicitly explained as a device to differentiate Minmei from normal girls.
If I were Hikaru, I'd stay away from her in that case. I'd hate to have to constantly figure out if she means what she says or is merely "coping".

Quote:
It's not really a case of "regressing". Misa had know for several years that Riber was probably dead. She was finally given a chance to find out the truth of the matter, and the message from the Mars Base gave her the false hope that he might still be alive. Finding out the truth, and confirming that he'd been long dead put Misa into a moment of weakness, and she just had trouble coping at that very moment.
My point is he was in all likelihood just a childhood crush. It may have been devastating for her as a young teenage girl, but as a grown woman she should have gained some perspective on what he meant to her exactly. Certainly she should feel silly for getting all bent out of shape like she did.
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Old 2008-06-11, 22:35   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post

I just find it silly how Macross's desendents are mimicing her, when it did alot of things out of harsh, unforgiving, necessity, not because it was ideal.
I sure as heck have not seen another Dadelus attack being pulled off

Episode 7 in Mac F doesn't count, that was no Dadelus

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-11, 22:59   Link #49
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I sure as heck have not seen another Dadelus attack being pulled off

Episode 7 in Mac F doesn't count, that was no Dadelus

- Tak
Of course not. Dadelus actually makes sense compared to what happened in Macross Frontier 7.
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Old 2008-06-11, 23:05   Link #50
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Yeah, but the thing is she was like twelve at the time if her appearance in the flashbacks is any indication (she's two feet shorter, and has little to no chest to speak of). A grown woman getting worked up enough to resolve to die just because she's in her childhood crush's room is nuts. Minmei at least had two weeks of uncertainty with the prospect of rats carrioning her starved corpse before she gave into that kind of despair, however briefly.
I'd say the poor girl is both stressed and repressed for something like this to even show up. Look at it this way, Misa is both the XO of the ship and it's "Voice" because of her air control duties. That's a lot of responsibility coupled with some hardcore military family pride. Little wonder here that the one chance she had for emotional expression she decided to go full out.

Something you're forgetting here.

Spoiler:


Oddly enough, the Mars episode is one of my favourites because it allowed everyone to see a completely different side to one of the show's most driven and apparently stable characters. It's also the first time Hikaru had seen the one person he's had a difficult and antagonistic relationship with as a vulnerable human being. Before that Misa was all business, a machine tasked with ordering people to die.

By the next episode she had sobered up and soldiered on, till the next dramatic explosion

Moving on, what I liked about the development in Misa and Hikaru's relationship?
How Hikaru keeps getting suprised by the girl because the longer he spends time with her, the more he realises that she has many admirable qualities and can be rather playful. There's something to be said of a person capable of outthinking a millenias old giant alien, recover quickly from the shock of near death and then ordering the available male for a kiss [and make it good ]. Without the wierd hair, it becomes easier to acknowledge that all that intelligence, courage and will is bundled together in one attractive package.

On Misa's side, she sees him grow up and become increasingly dependable. It's hard not to like someone willing to take a hit for them and consistently go into fire each time she's in trouble.

One day both wake up with the realisation that they make a pretty good team. It's not the whirlwind romance that Max/Miriya had but something that took a lot of work to get there.
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Old 2008-06-11, 23:17   Link #51
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I'd say the poor girl is both stressed and repressed for something like this to even show up. Look at it this way, Misa is both the XO of the ship and it's "Voice" because of her air control duties. That's a lot of responsibility coupled with some hardcore military family pride. Little wonder here that the one chance she had for emotional expression she decided to go full out.

Something you're forgetting here.

Spoiler:


Oddly enough, the Mars episode is one of my favourites because it allowed everyone to see a completely different side to one of the show's most driven and apparently stable characters. It's also the first time Hikaru had seen the one person he's had a difficult and antagonistic relationship with as a vulnerable human being. Before that Misa was all business, a machine tasked with ordering people to die.
You're forgetting they were still in radio contact with her. She found a moldy old desk and a few books, made herself comfortable, and ignored everything else around her. It's like she decided Fate had decreed she was going to die there and over her dead body was anything going to change that. All over what seems to have been a simple childhood crush.

Proud military heritage, a long career ahead of her, all too easily it seems she gave up on all of it for what is to me at least a most shallow reason.
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Old 2008-06-11, 23:17   Link #52
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It's just plain cracked how the bugs became mainstay features in all future incarnations.
What do you mean? There isn't all that much improvisation or bugs in the later works.

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If I were Hikaru, I'd stay away from her in that case. I'd hate to have to constantly figure out if she means what she says or is merely "coping".
You're misreading Minmei: she's always earnest in what she says. Where she's weird is that she doesn't have a proper sense of proportion, and that's partially where she gets her strength from. I get the feeling that Hikaru finds both of these traits attractive in her.

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My point is he was in all likelihood just a childhood crush. It may have been devastating for her as a young teenage girl, but as a grown woman she should have gained some perspective on what he meant to her exactly. Certainly she should feel silly for getting all bent out of shape like she did.
Riber was Misa's only crush/boyfriend/lover, and she was still at least partially in love with him at the time SDF-1 received the Mars Base message. Heck, even after she knew he was dead, she still wasn't entirely over him. You can call it an irrational reaction, but it's not a silly one.

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In that episode, she had just set the fusion reactor to the base to overload. Considering that she just happened to be stuck in her dead fiance room during a pitched battle, getting herself out probably wasn't possible.

Imminent death in her mind was likely in the next few minutes by nuclear detonation In that moment Misa had resigned herself to death, and would probably have been resistant to any sort of last minute reprieve.
When she set the timer, I get the impression that she fully intended to evacuate. It was only when she reached Riber's room that she decided to give up.

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Oddly enough, the Mars episode is one of my favourites because it allowed everyone to see a completely different side to one of the show's most driven and apparently stable characters. It's also the first time Hikaru had seen the one person he's had a difficult and antagonistic relationship with as a vulnerable human being. Before that Misa was all business, a machine tasked with ordering people to die.
There's a lot of things to like about that episode. On the one hand, we see the Zentradi set up a rather clever trap, we see more of Kamjin's recklessness, and the real hero of the day was actually Misa going into the base itself. And of course, this was one of the first episodes to transform Misa from being an archetype into a rounded character.
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Old 2008-06-11, 23:38   Link #53
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What do you mean? There isn't all that much improvisation or bugs in the later works.
Mostly just the fact they all transform. The only reason the original does it so that they can use the main cannon, and it's very much not ideal. I guess I could see a module system as being somehow redundant, but my impression is that giant transforming robots is performed purely for asthetics in future Macross series. It's not Macross if it doesn't transform.

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You're misreading Minmei: she's always earnest in what she says. Where she's weird is that she doesn't have a proper sense of proportion, and that's partially where she gets her strength from. I get the feeling that Hikaru finds both of these traits attractive in her.
I'm curious as to how she'd react if Hikaru does die. She's apparently not worried about him since he's a great pilot, and worrying in general is silly according to her. If it was simply that she believed everything was going to be alright no matter what unless it was obvious it wasn't, I could buy into it since that's what Faith is all about.

Quote:
Riber was Misa's only crush/boyfriend/lover, and she was still at least partially in love with him at the time SDF-1 received the Mars Base message. Heck, even after she knew he was dead, she still wasn't entirely over him. You can call it an irrational reaction, but it's not a silly one.
Entertaining the hope he was still alive, wanting to find some trace of him even if he wasn't, those things I can understand and appreciate. Just that she willfully ignores radio contact, resolves to die, and resists rescue, that's just too much, even if the guy had only gone missing within the last week after proposing marriage.

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There's a lot of things to like about that episode. On the one hand, we see the Zentradi set up a rather clever trap, we see more of Kamjin's recklessness, and the real hero of the day was actually Misa going into the base itself. And of course, this was one of the first episodes to transform Misa from being an archetype into a rounded character.
I especially liked how well set up the trap was. More than that, I liked seeing the details of trap being gradually revealed to the viewer without it being obvious to the people being lured into the trap (the attacks disabling Macross's rocket boosters, while diverting it's course towards Mars). It was very subtle, yet very detailed.
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Old 2008-06-11, 23:50   Link #54
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You're forgetting they were still in radio contact with her. She found a moldy old desk and a few books, made herself comfortable, and ignored everything else around her. It's like she decided Fate had decreed she was going to die there and over her dead body was anything going to change that. All over what seems to have been a simple childhood crush.

Proud military heritage, a long career ahead of her, all too easily it seems she gave up on all of it for what is to me at least a most shallow reason.
That's the difficulty with Misa, she's too rational which is a great hinderance to people too smart for their own good. And the girl is more than the sum of her family pride and military training. She also has a store of emotional experiances that she's kept suppressed in order to direct the soldiers under her command against a giant, walking nightmare. The moment she identifies emotionally to any one of the 'numbers' in the field are the times she's incapable of doing her job as the XO and air control.

Misa has uncompromisingly high standards, a cold relationship to her father, rigid adherence to authority and is a stickler for responsibility and duty. Throw in the continuous need to prove herself and you have the making of a death wish. In short, she somewhat starved of love with few close friends and confidants. Nuts, even her first kiss had no love behind it.

You've just pointed out why I found looking at the girl so painful in the beginning. She's a walking head with so many emotional ties damaged or missing that there were times I've wondered how she keeps functioning.

Amazingly enough, these are the very attributes that allow her to work out how the Zentradi mindset operates and from there figure out how to save her own life and the human race. If Misa was born a Meltandi she would have made a very effective fleet commander, until some space rogue came along and showed her 'culture'
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Old 2008-06-12, 00:03   Link #55
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That's the difficulty with Misa, she's too rational which is a great hinderance to people too smart for their own good. And the girl is more than the sum of her family pride and military training. She also has a store of emotional experiances that she's kept suppressed in order to direct the soldiers under her command against a giant, walking nightmare. The moment she identifies emotionally to any one of the 'numbers' in the field are the times she's incapable of doing her job as the XO and air control.

Misa has uncompromisingly high standards, a cold relationship to her father, rigid adherence to authority and is a stickler for responsibility and duty. Throw in the continuous need to prove herself and you have the making of a death wish. In short, she somewhat starved of love with few close friends and confidants. Nuts, even her first kiss had no love behind it.

You've just pointed out why I found looking at the girl so painful in the beginning. She's a walking head with so many emotional ties damaged or missing that there were times I've wondered how she keeps functioning.

Amazingly enough, these are the very attributes that allow her to work out how the Zentradi mindset operates and from there figure out how to save her own life and the human race. If Misa was born a Meltandi she would have made a very effective fleet commander, until some space rogue came along and showed her 'culture'
You're talking to me as if I've seen the whole series. I really don't see her as the least bit machine-like as you seem to. She's just the head bridge bunny to me, who acted out a bit this last episode for a reason that most people wouldn't have. At least as I believe.
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Old 2008-06-12, 00:28   Link #56
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You're talking to me as if I've seen the whole series. I really don't see her as the least bit machine-like as you seem to. She's just the head bridge bunny to me, who acted out a bit this last episode for a reason that most people wouldn't have. At least as I believe.
Probably because she almost never panics in situations that would call for mass hysteria. Teleport to the wrong side of the solar system? That's okay, we still have rockets. Main guns don't work? I know, let's punch that ship in the head instead. Need someone to manually arm a nuke far from your exit point? [puts hand up]. Captured? Wow, perfect opportunity to continue the intelligence gathering mission- torture and interrogations notwithstanding. Giant alien threatening bodily harm? Antagonises them even more before setting up a 'Demonstration' . Seriously, this girl is all business. It's possible to hear the gears moving in her head until the Heroic BSOD appears.

Speaking of which, she also recovers very quickly from hurt, shock or indigination. Her fastboot mode is pretty effective. It's good enough to save Hikaru's life later after receiving a pretty big setback to achieving her mission objectives.

Chalk that up to a personal favourite performance by her VA. Didn't think it was possible to voice a cold and emotionless greeting to one's own father. 25 years on I can still remember that episode.
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Old 2008-06-12, 00:31   Link #57
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You're talking to me as if I've seen the whole series. I really don't see her as the least bit machine-like as you seem to. She's just the head bridge bunny to me, who acted out a bit this last episode for a reason that most people wouldn't have. At least as I believe.
Then you really should watch the whole series.
Because she is definately more then "just the head bridge bunny"

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Speaking of which, she also recovers very quickly from hurt, shock or indigination.
Fast recovery, eitehr that or she's fast at putting em away in a deep dark place within herself. She's strong, but prone to emotional burnout Still one of my favorite characters though
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Old 2008-06-12, 00:37   Link #58
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Then you really should watch the whole series.
Because she is definately more then "just the head bridge bunny"
I plan to. I just don't see where this robotic woman of his is hiding at present.
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Old 2008-06-12, 00:43   Link #59
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Maybe robotic isn't the right word, its more of a uber career woman. the job always comes first, no matter what.
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Old 2008-06-12, 00:52   Link #60
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Maybe robotic isn't the right word, its more of a uber career woman. the job always comes first, no matter what.
I'm not seeing that either. Everyone else on the bridge is doing their job, just as she is.
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