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Old 2008-06-14, 12:55   Link #1
Kaioshin Sama
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Games and Symbolism in Code Geass

I was thinking a "Games & Symbolism" thread might serve to give people a chance to discuss the use of games like chess or mental games of the like the characters often play on each other and whatever symbolism they might or might not have even Code Geass that ties into the plot.

The basis of it would be to discuss/give personal thoughts on and debate (friendly that is) what and whether a particular scene or battle of wits between two characters is trying to say in the grand scheme of the overall storyline. It could also give the chance for people to say whether they think a particular scene in Code Geass is trying to say something about the way the real world works by doing something in the special context of Code Geass. Kind of like how popular science fiction often works. Most of all it would give people the chance to do it uninterrupted by episode discussion and vice versa and would also let people bring up anything that has happened throughout the entire series as opposed to just a particular episode during the discussion.

Discussion Question Example: Was there a particular reason why the term Knight of Rounds was chosen to describe the Emperors personal guard when it clearly contradicts what Britannia stands for in relation to popular use of the term Knight of Rounds?

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Last edited by White Manju Bun; 2008-06-14 at 15:31. Reason: adding spoiler part
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Old 2008-06-14, 16:13   Link #2
Renegade334
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Okay, let's use the example to spark some discussion.
Quote:
Was there a particular reason why the term Knight of Rounds was chosen to describe the Emperors personal guard when it clearly contradicts what Britannia stands for in relation to popular use of the term Knight of Rounds?
Probably none that draw a parallel to the ideals of the said Arthurian knights; IIRC, they only received that name because they used to convene around a round table...so it's perfectly possible for the CG equivalent to have earned that name from a similar situation. Even though it's a shaky theory, it nevertheless beats the oversimplified (although likely) explanation that Taniguchi wanted his own version of the Knights of the Round Table but declined to use the original name but bastardized it to fit the CG universe.

Otherwise, we'd be picking at the other alternate meanings of 'round', which include:

- A regular recurring series of activities or functions.
- Archery. A fixed number of arrows shot from a fixed distance.
- Military. A watch that goes round inspecting sentries.
- Military. Ammunition to fire one shot.

Definitions lifted from the Oxford Compendium, ninth edition.

The term 'Round Table' is indeed misleading or self-contradicting; although the order's members just had to be people awarded the highest order of chilvary by the King, the round table had another, hidden meaning: since it was circular, it also meant that there was neither head, nor end...in other words, no position of honor...meaning that all members were held as equals. There is only one exception to the rule, and it's the Knight of One, the strongest of the lot. The others aren't named according to a ranking order...which more or less salvages the original notion of equality among fellow Knights.

On a side note, as Charles is the only Emperor shown directly promoting the notion of survival of the fittest, it is always possible that the Knights of Rounds originally had a different purpose and ideals, more noble and less belligerent (although I doubt it - CG's history is tumultuous and I don't expect Britannia's imperial bloodline to have been made of peace-niks before Charles' reign). As such, the contrast between old lore and current situation would be less severe, since we take into account the fact that Charles has been actively influencing their objectives.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2008-06-14 at 16:29. Reason: Reworded, fixed and completed.
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Old 2008-06-14, 16:30   Link #3
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Awesome, I've read about it in the suggestions thread and I found it to be a great idea!

I'll try to post some more tomorrow since it's kind of late and I have a report to file by tomorrow ~_~
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Old 2008-06-14, 17:27   Link #4
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A Round Table wouldn't necessarily be in contradiction with Britania's ideals.

I read somewhere that it was made round so the knights - a fiercely competitive, honor hungry lot - would focus a bit more on finding the grail and generally doing their job of kicking ass, and less on who sat where. At the very least, it's expedient.
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Old 2008-06-15, 01:11   Link #5
Esper 28
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A Round Table wouldn't necessarily be in contradiction with Britania's ideals.

I read somewhere that it was made round so the knights - a fiercely competitive, honor hungry lot - would focus a bit more on finding the grail and generally doing their job of kicking ass, and less on who sat where. At the very least, it's expedient.
Well, I think that's the point. The round table cut through all of the "I'm better than you!" nonsense and made them focus on their task at hand.

Charles spouts that Britannia is all about survival of the fittest and having the Knights of Round be of equal status directly contradicts that. If you looked at it from Charles' point of view, you would constantly want your knights competing between one another so that the strongest knight always prevails, ensuring that the best is on top.

While I really like the idea that Renegade334 proposed, that the word "round" is being used differently than we're initially interpreting it, I am inclined to think that Charles has broken his rule in favor of a stronger fighting force. Judging by the way the Knights of Round interact with one another, seemingly on equal footing, I think it's fair to say that Charles isn't doing anything to incite competition.

However, like Renegade334 mentioned, the Knight of One seems to break the equality rule. My knowledge of the Knight of One in CG is sketchy, so I don't know if the other Knights of Round cow tail to whatever he says or not. I think that would be an important aspect to consider when trying to reason the purpose behind naming the Knights of Round. Does the Knight of One title come with enough perks, besides the controlling whatever Area you want, to warrant competition between the Knights in order to please Charles? At least Suzaku thinks so, right?

By the way, happy to have this thread around. I think it'll provoke some interesting discussion!
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Old 2008-06-15, 01:12   Link #6
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I've been curious about what determines what number you get in the Rounds. Do the numbers even matter? The only one that seems to have anything to it is the Knight of One.
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Old 2008-06-15, 03:09   Link #7
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I would be curious about Charles being "two-faced". On one level, we see his "survival of the fittest" rhetoric. But, on another level, surely he knows that no matter how mighty he is, he'll require a team under his control, not just "one" Knight.

He seems to be a skilled manipulator; with the Geass, he's even more formidable.

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Old 2008-06-15, 12:45   Link #8
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Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
However, like Renegade334 mentioned, the Knight of One seems to break the equality rule. My knowledge of the Knight of One in CG is sketchy, so I don't know if the other Knights of Round cow tail to whatever he says or not. I think that would be an important aspect to consider when trying to reason the purpose behind naming the Knights of Round. Does the Knight of One title come with enough perks, besides the controlling whatever Area you want, to warrant competition between the Knights in order to please Charles? At least Suzaku thinks so, right?
Hm, well aside being able to pick whichever area they want to manage, the Knight of One is also the Emperor's personal knight and with the authority that comes with that position. We have seen Guilford excersise some authority in the name of his Princess, so perhaps the Knight of One can do the same. And also is the Knight of One also the leader of the Knight of Rounds? If he is then that could be another perk.
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Old 2008-06-15, 18:43   Link #9
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Sorry this post is going to have major ADD:

I wonder what LL was planning on doing when he 'surrendered' to Euphie.

What exactly were LL's intentions with his match vs Schneizel. He implied that he'd be able to Geass everyone if not for Suzaku, however there were some pretty important guests there (2 other KoR, Milly, Lloyd, Tzian, etc.) and I don't think LL would waste his geass just to abduct/geass Tzian; unless she's really that important.

About the KoR. I'm assuming the best KoR is Knight of One. Obviously the importance of the knight doesn't seem to determine what number they end up being (Suzaku knows about Geass and gave LL up but he's only 7). I'm thinking that it's all just being manipulated by Charles and he'll do what he wants when he finds the need to do so. He obviously can't just 'king' Suzaku by making him 1 as it'll cause some dissent and I wonder what happened to the previous 7 and/or the 5 KoR below him. Suzaku is probably the only Eleven to be a KoR and it doesn't seem to have caused anything.

I also don't get why the USA is Britannia when Britannia is usually associated with Europe/England and all the Britannians have very royal, english first/last names. Also, is there any significance with the Li/Vi/Di Britannia? Heirs and Charles' wives only have a xi Britannia name. I'm just wondering if the Li/Vi/Di means anything. Schneizel and Odysseus have El/U Britannia. Weird huh.

Yeah I'm done.
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Old 2008-06-15, 18:50   Link #10
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The thing with Euphemia? I think he planned on helping it succeed like he said. Of course, he would probably still have tried fighting Britannia but it may have been different.
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Old 2008-06-16, 01:30   Link #11
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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
I also don't get why the USA is Britannia when Britannia is usually associated with Europe/England and all the Britannians have very royal, english first/last names. Also, is there any significance with the Li/Vi/Di Britannia? Heirs and Charles' wives only have a xi Britannia name. I'm just wondering if the Li/Vi/Di means anything. Schneizel and Odysseus have El/U Britannia. Weird huh.
Assuming that Taniguchi survive the sunrise marketing treatment, it was said that he was a more or less left winged person. Thus, he probably want to allude United States as an evil Empire. More precisely, however, he probably dislike the current United States under Bush's admin, as well as the United States during Vietnam and Korea... and maybe even WWII, where they defeated Japan (Many Japanese only sees themselves as victims of nuclear bombs and nothign else)

On the other hand, he probably like the original ideals the United States are found upon thus he brought out the concept of United States in the idea Lelouch proposed. If you consider all things, Lelouch is kind of like George Washington, who started out serving Britain but ended up against them.

Also, practically speaking, the 1984 world (which is basically what the Code Geass world is) is more or less difficult to maintain, simply because:
a) British Isle is seperated from America
b) British Isle is too close for comfort with the rest of Europe.
No matter if Britannia remain in British Isle or not, under such situation, the capital will have to move to American continents. Coupled with additional drmatic effects, may as well as bring British Isle out of the picture.
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Old 2008-06-16, 03:32   Link #12
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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
I also don't get why the USA is Britannia when Britannia is usually associated with Europe/England and all the Britannians have very royal, english first/last names.
It may be worth mentioning, it may not, but the royal family have some very different names. For instance, Clovis and Schneizel are Germanic in origin. Cornelia is Roman, as it's the female form of Cornelius. Euphemia is an ancient Greek name. And they've just introduced Odysseus, which is clearly ancient Greek as well.

Perhaps that could be a topic worth discussing in this thread. Why do certain members of the Britannian family have the names that they do? Is there some sort of secret agenda hidden behind the origins of their names?

The only thing I could possibly add to that is that Euphemia means "to speak well". Doesn't help much, though.
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Old 2008-07-01, 11:33   Link #13
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Well, this thread deserves to be higher up.
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Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
It may be worth mentioning, it may not, but the royal family have some very different names. For instance, Clovis and Schneizel are Germanic in origin. Cornelia is Roman, as it's the female form of Cornelius. Euphemia is an ancient Greek name. And they've just introduced Odysseus, which is clearly ancient Greek as well.

Perhaps that could be a topic worth discussing in this thread. Why do certain members of the Britannian family have the names that they do? Is there some sort of secret agenda hidden behind the origins of their names?
I doubt there's really a meaning to it, but speculation is always welcome at times like these.
When we consider their personalities, I'll assume Clovis was somewhat similar to Schneizel (for no reason at all, really), and could fit the stereotypical aggressive yet calm and collected German mold. Cornelia was also a very militaristic character, but she had somewhat of a set of values she held, maybe similar to Roman soldiers or whatnot.
Euphemia and Greece might point to her similarities to Lacus Greek philosophers in a tranquil, peace-seeking mindset.

It could always just be that Roman, Greek, and German names sound cool as names for royal characters, though.

I'm actually two episodes behind having seen 10 a week or three back, so I can't comment on this "Knight of One".

Code Geass subtly mixes this stuff in, references and allegories that one doesn't necessarily need to even consider, but interesting nonetheless; one of the more blatant examples would be the Tower of Babel in episode two and however you may interpret its story.
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Old 2008-07-01, 12:02   Link #14
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When we consider their personalities, I'll assume Clovis was somewhat similar to Schneizel (for no reason at all, really), and could fit the stereotypical aggressive yet calm and collected German mold.
This whole German and Greek thing got me doing some research and I found a few interesting things. So Clovis and Schneizel are the ones with German names and they both have blond hair. There are blonds in germany but more so in the North. ABout the Roman and greek connections I also found out that in Germany has been overrun often by "foreign tribes" especially in the past. Many of which were Roman or Greek(Roman Soldiers or a Slave from Greece). Maybe that has something to do with their Britanian lineage, I'm not sure, just thought it was interesting.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:54   Link #15
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I think that one of the coolest symbolisms that is made is the whole thing with Chess. Lelouch thinks of the battle field as a chess bourd. It also shows how he manipulates things. And also in chess. Sacrifices have to be made
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Old 2008-07-01, 18:34   Link #16
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
This whole German and Greek thing got me doing some research and I found a few interesting things. So Clovis and Schneizel are the ones with German names and they both have blond hair. There are blonds in germany but more so in the North. ABout the Roman and greek connections I also found out that in Germany has been overrun often by "foreign tribes" especially in the past. Many of which were Roman or Greek(Roman Soldiers or a Slave from Greece). Maybe that has something to do with their Britanian lineage, I'm not sure, just thought it was interesting.
Yep. The Western Romans (after becoming an Empire and then dividing) were especially dead set on assimilating the Germanic cultures into theirs. They even redid their pagan religion entirely for the sake of the incoming Germanic population just so that it'd be easier for them to accept and adapt to the "Roman" way of life.

Reflecting on it, I am still slightly surprised that several of the names belonging to the Britannian lineage derive from such a variety of cultures assuming that the foundation of the Empire of Britannia (having been founded as a union to fight off the Republic of Rome's invasion and Julius Caesar) was almost purely Celtic in origin. Perhaps over time they inevitably became exposed to their neighbors in continental europe even though they themselves were never subjected under Roman rule...



Actually, looking more towards the future, (1066 AD our time) the Normans still could've won the Battle of Hastings and ultimately "Romanized" the previously purely Celtic Britannia. That would explain the variety of given names the Britannians seem to have. It wouldn't interrupt any of the more canonized history of Britannia either as the England we know of during the Napoleonic Wars (we know that in the CG universe British genius Horatio Nelson was actually bested) was the same England that got overwhelmed by the Normans. The Normans just ultimately settled down and Britannia began to develop a number of aspects from the romance cultures. Names is definitely up there, but not before vocabulary.

The above piece of history is why British and American English seem to incorporate a lot of its vocabulary from the Latin-derived Romance languages and its root Anglo-Saxon language. I think English seems to have one of the most extensive vocabularies in the world.

Putting it into perspective like this is truly confusing though; but if there is anyone else who would like to help me out piece these little tidbits of history together to fit into the CG's Britannia, I would very much appreciate it.
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Old 2008-08-15, 00:11   Link #17
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I've been curious about what determines what number you get in the Rounds. Do the numbers even matter? The only one that seems to have anything to it is the Knight of One.
Well probably, the privileges of the Knights are higher if you are let's say, Knight of 2 oposed to Knight of 7. It's just that Knight of One has the most noticeable priviledge.
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Old 2008-08-15, 00:12   Link #18
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The ranks don't make any difference except where Knight of One is concerned.
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Old 2008-08-15, 04:01   Link #19
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How about the symbolism between Kallen and the Chess rules that dictate the pawn.
In chess if the pawn can cross the board it will be promoted. You can choose any piece to promote it to, other then the King; but most people pick the Queen.
Now that Kallen has returned from deep within enemy control. She is clearly and without debate now, Kallen is the Queen of Lelouch's forces. She's the most maneuverable and power fighter. there is nothing stronger in his force that meets that level. Her code name is also Q-1, meaning the Queen. As to whether this filters over into being the Queen to his heart is another matter.
Kallen did start out as a pawn to him. In his first battle he put her out as bait for attacks. Slowly she moved up into the ranks to his personal guard.

You could possible extend this to her comparisons to Marianne. Both started out from modest beginnings. Marianne was a commoner, Kallen at first lived with her mother as a Japanese. It wasn't until later did she move into her father's home and she got Britannian status.
They both are strong women and excel at piloting KMFs.
We might be able to tell more if we ever get to see more of Marianne.

These are just a few of my ideas to add to this thread.
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Old 2008-08-16, 22:13   Link #20
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Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt View Post
How about the symbolism between Kallen and the Chess rules that dictate the pawn.
In chess if the pawn can cross the board it will be promoted. You can choose any piece to promote it to, other then the King; but most people pick the Queen.
Now that Kallen has returned from deep within enemy control. She is clearly and without debate now, Kallen is the Queen of Lelouch's forces. She's the most maneuverable and power fighter. there is nothing stronger in his force that meets that level. Her code name is also Q-1, meaning the Queen. As to whether this filters over into being the Queen to his heart is another matter.
Kallen did start out as a pawn to him. In his first battle he put her out as bait for attacks. Slowly she moved up into the ranks to his personal guard.

You could possible extend this to her comparisons to Marianne. Both started out from modest beginnings. Marianne was a commoner, Kallen at first lived with her mother as a Japanese. It wasn't until later did she move into her father's home and she got Britannian status.
They both are strong women and excel at piloting KMFs.
We might be able to tell more if we ever get to see more of Marianne.

These are just a few of my ideas to add to this thread.

I completely agree Kallen is no doubt the queen of Lelouch's force. Although I have a question have we decided whether Lelouch is the Black King or is he the player the one who plays the game?
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