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Old 2008-06-16, 10:40   Link #1001
WanderingKnight
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I think Jesus had plenty of good things to say. However I think that the bible is inherently flawed, particularly the old testament, who's depiction of god is quite at odds with the new testaments depiction, they're almost different beings.
Well... The Old Testament is actually the holy book of Judaism. Christianity merely took advantage of it and purposefully related the religion they professed with that of the Jews. At least historically speaking.
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Old 2008-06-16, 11:36   Link #1002
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The New Testament is full of its own issues, though the interpretation of God in it is great deal more palatable to modern brains. The debates over the proper translations alone fill many research forums, much less how one should take the inputs from Paul or the meaning of that last book: Revelations.
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Old 2008-06-16, 23:39   Link #1003
bullzeeb
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So many Christians...................*shudders*

I am a philosopher. That's the closest thing I have to religion.
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Old 2008-06-17, 02:19   Link #1004
Vexx
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Hopefully, you read back a few pages before so that you haven't misidentified those of us who aren't Christian. Not being a Christian (or a Muslim or whatever) doesn't mean one hasn't studied the religion thoroughly. Frankly, I wish more people would study religion not their own --- except that many don't appear to have actually studied their own religion O.o
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Old 2008-06-17, 07:05   Link #1005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well... The Old Testament is actually the holy book of Judaism. Christianity merely took advantage of it and purposefully related the religion they professed with that of the Jews. At least historically speaking.
Well, strictly historically speaking, Christians were a bunch of Jews that believed they had found the Messiah and afterward began inviting non-Jews to join them. Then a bunch of non-Jews hijacked it and played mix-and-match with their religious beliefs.

There really isn't any conflict between the Old and New Testaments unless one interprets the New Testament according to assumptions made about Christianity. Jesus wasn't saying anything new.

But mainline Christianity has been busy for so long (almost the entirety of its existence) trying to justify its deviations that even many incredibly learned theologians have no idea what their own religion teaches, because they've been spending so much time learning it according to incorrect assumptions and their own cultural perspective.

I've spent a lot of time trying to shed myself of such, and I still have a long way to go. Still, it saddens and frustrates me that there's so much of it elsewhere. The only way I've been able to get through discussing religion with the religious and non-religious alike without blowing a blood vessel is to remind myself that religious beliefs are secondary to relationship.

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Originally Posted by bullzeeb View Post
So many Christians...................*shudders*
So many atheists...................*shudder*
So many Muslims...................*shudder*
So many Buddhists...................*shudder*
So many Sikh...................*shudder*
So many--OK, I think I've made my point.

The world is full of all sorts. In any given group, there are a few good, a few more fanatics, and a whole bunch of people who are ignorant, apathetic, ambivalent, or some combination.

If you're disturbed personally by proximity to people who belong to a particular group, well... I'd say you have a problem that needs much more of your attention than any problem you perceive in them.

"How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me pull the splinter out of your eye' when you don't see the beam in your own eye"--oh, nevermind.
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Last edited by Kyuusai; 2008-06-17 at 07:17.
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Old 2008-06-17, 07:17   Link #1006
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People should just forget about religion because it causes too many violenece. Let's work as one unified group of no religion rather what we've already been called, Humans. Let's be humans and work together as humans.
Religion causes too many discrimination and conflict.
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Old 2008-06-17, 08:05   Link #1007
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Yeah but it's a little too late for that now, should have stopped religion ages ago if you want it gone.
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Old 2008-06-17, 10:07   Link #1008
Anh_Minh
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No, no, being human have led to too many wars.
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Old 2008-06-17, 11:58   Link #1009
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, no, being human have led to too many wars.
You're both right. The human race is one of jealousy and selfishness, so to justify what they do, they say that it's for God. I'm talking about the human race and referring to it as "they" because there are people that aren't like that.
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Old 2008-06-17, 12:22   Link #1010
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Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
Well, strictly historically speaking, Christians were a bunch of Jews that believed they had found the Messiah and afterward began inviting non-Jews to join them. Then a bunch of non-Jews hijacked it and played mix-and-match with their religious beliefs.
Well, I wouldn't call it a "hi-jack", per se, but rather that some people saw Jesus as the true Messiah and others didn't since good percentage of those following Judaism thought that the Messiah would be a command and lead them to victory of the battlefield, and when they saw that the proclaimed Son of God was a pacifist, they were skeptical and didn't believe that He was the Son of the Great Creator, and there were those that did follow Jesus' teachings even though some of his teachings differed from what the Torah said. After the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ, tension grew between the two groups because they had differed practices and moral beliefs, and the Christians didn't want to follow Jewish laws since some of the traditions (ie. circumcision) didn't apply to them, but since the lived in the area, they were forced to follow Jewish traditions and laws, hence why the mixing and matching of laws and rules in the beginning.

Due to said-conflict, Paul leaves Antioch and goes on a journey to Jerusalem and meets with the elders about the issue circumcision of Gentile Christians and whether or not Christians should follow Mosaic Law. An agreement was eventually reached, but it didn't stop the conflict in the area. It was one of the first major steps separating Christianity from Judaism, which is a little more complicated than some guys thinking that Jesus was the Messiah and others that didn't.
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Old 2008-06-17, 13:00   Link #1011
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Originally Posted by Razer_2mb View Post
Well, I wouldn't call it a "hi-jack", per se, but rather that some people saw Jesus as the true Messiah and others didn't since good percentage of those following Judaism thought that the Messiah would be a command and lead them to victory of the battlefield, and when they saw that the proclaimed Son of God was a pacifist, they were skeptical and didn't believe that He was the Son of the Great Creator, and there were those that did follow Jesus' teachings even though some of his teachings differed from what the Torah said. After the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ, tension grew between the two groups because they had differed practices and moral beliefs, and the Christians didn't want to follow Jewish laws since some of the traditions (ie. circumcision) didn't apply to them, but since the lived in the area, they were forced to follow Jewish traditions and laws, hence why the mixing and matching of laws and rules in the beginning.

Due to said-conflict, Paul leaves Antioch and goes on a journey to Jerusalem and meets with the elders about the issue circumcision of Gentile Christians and whether or not Christians should follow Mosaic Law. An agreement was eventually reached, but it didn't stop the conflict in the area. It was one of the first major steps separating Christianity from Judaism, which is a little more complicated than some guys thinking that Jesus was the Messiah and others that didn't.
These are excellent, and correct facts.

The "hijack" I was referring to, though (and I confess that I didn't specify), was not the non-adherence to Mosaic Law (which was a weirder issue--just how converted WERE these folks?), but the folding in of Greco-Roman cultural and religious philosophies and beliefs and an ironic rejection of certain Jewish practices and beliefs.

The Jews, of course, responded in kind, and the general Jewish schools of thought and belief shifted a bit to separate themselves from these folks who claimed to share their religion.
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Old 2008-06-17, 13:01   Link #1012
vel
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My parents often say " You must not talk about your nationality, wages and religion" Hehe...

I think some religion which injure others is strange.
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Old 2008-06-17, 14:56   Link #1013
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@Kyuusai:

The "Christianity" I was talking about was the one the Roman Empire embraced. Which is, in the end, the one that finally evolved into what we know today as Christianity. That's what I meant by "taking advantage of (certain) Jewish traditions". Of course they were selective in what they did, and they knew why they were doing it--for them, it was an instrument of power.

Yes, truthfully enough, Jesus was a Jew, but the image of Christianity that was built decades after his death was probably very different from the one he had intended (and that's IF he had intended such a thing).
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Old 2008-06-17, 16:45   Link #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
@Kyuusai:

The "Christianity" I was talking about was the one the Roman Empire embraced. Which is, in the end, the one that finally evolved into what we know today as Christianity. That's what I meant by "taking advantage of (certain) Jewish traditions". Of course they were selective in what they did, and they knew why they were doing it--for them, it was an instrument of power.

Yes, truthfully enough, Jesus was a Jew, but the image of Christianity that was built decades after his death was probably very different from the one he had intended (and that's IF he had intended such a thing).
You'll find me in agreement on all those points.

I think this sort of corruption happened organically. Just the effects of human idiocy and incompetence (the perils of group-think and individuals in power). But while the theology may be not be the primary point, bad theology can be harmful. In the worst cases, people die and are oppressed. In the best cases, it is intellectually indefensible.

I always find it amazing that people look to "the church fathers" as interpretive authorities when we have historical evidence that large groups were getting things drastically wrong so early in the process. But whether it's politics or religion, the voice calmly stating "The truth is subtly different, but has drastic implications, and will require you put away emotional rationalization and cultural bias" will almost always be drowned out by the shouts advocating emotionally-charged, personally gratifying beliefs.

I can't blame any one for rejecting Christianity on an intellectual basis any more than I could blame some one for disliking American Coca-Cola. The ingredients are similar, it all looks the same, but it's slightly different... and people could easily go forever without knowing that it was not what the original formulator intended.

But the theology really is secondary. Or, rather... it's supposed to be. Christians even manage to miss the primary point of their religion, too. But again, that's just a universal trail of dealing with human beings.
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Old 2008-06-19, 02:17   Link #1015
Edgewalker
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People should just forget about religion because it causes too many violenece.
Religion does not cause "violence". Stupidity and closed mindedness do. Religion just happens to occasionally be a huge factor in causing a person to become closed minded due to its dogmatic nature when taken literally. But ultimately the person who straps a bomb to themselves "for god" is the foolish one for allowing him/herself to stop thinking.

Ironically enough, religion has much in common with recreational drugs. Drugs are nothing but a temporary relief from reality to those who use them responsibly and seldom, but very dangerous in the hands of those who depend on them.
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Old 2008-06-19, 02:50   Link #1016
Izayoi
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Atheism, oh dear religions.
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Old 2008-06-24, 22:52   Link #1017
davorb
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I'm an anti theist.
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Old 2008-06-24, 23:11   Link #1018
HayashiTakara
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I have my own religion... its a religion where when you die faithfully you'll be rewarded with 100 sexy cat girls for all of eternity on a tropical paradise Who wants to join?
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Old 2008-06-25, 00:34   Link #1019
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Old 2008-06-25, 00:40   Link #1020
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^ lmao,
someone who actually speaks my kind of religion.
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