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Old 2004-04-11, 08:11   Link #41
Göönk
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It's a girls feeling?
HUH
I WON'T TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEN
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Old 2004-04-11, 09:22   Link #42
atua
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This is slightly OT, but I think the English language tends to make it more difficult than it needs to when talking about love. The word is so vague that people end up misunderstanding each other because they were talking about different aspects of love. I think the Greek terms eros, philia, storge & agape describe "love" with a lot more clarity.
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Old 2004-04-11, 16:17   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
This is slightly OT, but I think the English language tends to make it more difficult than it needs to when talking about love. The word is so vague that people end up misunderstanding each other because they were talking about different aspects of love. I think the Greek terms eros, philia, storge & agape describe "love" with a lot more clarity.
Very true. English probably isn't the language to be having this conversation about love in. One says love and "people end up misunderstanding" what was ment. Unfortunately I have yet to learn Greek, though it is fairly high on the lanuages I plan to learn list.
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Old 2004-04-13, 11:40   Link #44
himalayan
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here's my two cents...

yoshino/rei


- possible shoujo ai. bestfriends tend to be possesive true. but then again.. how many bestfriends do you see getting all jealous and fiery? it maybe a fact that yoshino has been sick all her life(?) but getting fired up with a single date? not likely. it's just a date.. a half-day date at that. surely yoshino didnt expect the fan what was the girl's name again? - to become rei's bestfriend within at least 5 hours?

sachiko/yumi

- aherm... this one is a bit too early to say. having only seen the anime my views are limited. but from what i see and what i've mentioned on some other debate, yumi is NOT that innocent. she knows what a lesbian is. check the valentine's ep where she was thinking something about rosa doggie er.. canina.


sei/shiori


- this one is BLATANT shoujo ai. if you cant see it.. then you have to get a density check right this instant. ask every straight person you know to watch the ep. and they'll give you the same answer: 'ick they're lesbians!' or something else that attains to homosexuality.

sei/canina


- unrequited. but shoujo ai love nonetheless.
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Old 2004-04-13, 13:19   Link #45
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What about Sei x Shimako ?

We have shoujo-ai on Shimako side, but I don't think Sei sentiments for Shimako are as strong, even if she care deeply for her little sister.

I don't know about you, but the relationship between these two is the one I found the most mysterious during the most part of the show...^^

Last edited by Ialdaboth; 2004-04-13 at 14:17.
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Old 2004-04-13, 13:40   Link #46
himalayan
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^_^ er..truth be told. i honestly dont like shimako. so er... everything that has to do with shimako is a no-no or.. i dont do much analysis.
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Old 2004-04-13, 18:03   Link #47
Göönk
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hey
i've just watched ep2 of "Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai".
Girls just take shower - naked as far as I can see - together even though they don't even know their name. huh? So how is it called then?
Hum. I think Japanese is hard to understand. Anime is not reality, I know.
Anime is MUCH BETTER !!
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Old 2004-04-13, 20:09   Link #48
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Göönk
hey
i've just watched ep2 of "Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai".
Girls just take shower - naked as far as I can see - together even though they don't even know their name. huh? So how is it called then?
Hum. I think Japanese is hard to understand. Anime is not reality, I know.
Anime is MUCH BETTER !!
Same thing as men going to the men's only bath houses (sentou) and onsen hot springs with other men.
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Old 2004-04-13, 23:55   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
yoshino/rei


- possible shoujo ai. bestfriends tend to be possesive true. but then again.. how many bestfriends do you see getting all jealous and fiery? it maybe a fact that yoshino has been sick all her life(?) but getting fired up with a single date? not likely. it's just a date.. a half-day date at that. surely yoshino didnt expect the fan what was the girl's name again? - to become rei's bestfriend within at least 5 hours?
I think it might just be part of Yoshino's character to overreact to things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
sachiko/yumi

- aherm... this one is a bit too early to say. having only seen the anime my views are limited. but from what i see and what i've mentioned on some other debate, yumi is NOT that innocent. she knows what a lesbian is. check the valentine's ep where she was thinking something about rosa doggie er.. canina.
I would agree that Yumi probably knows what a lesbian is -- she is in highschool and doesn't appear to be completely incompetent. However, just because someone knows what a lesbian is doesn't make them one automatically; nor is it possible to say much from a single random thought.

Now a couple random quotes I feel like saying for some reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FL Lucas
Perhaps if we knew more of the past, we should not think we knew so much; if we understood it better, we might cease to hope to understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Ford as he passed beyond doubt, dismissing all history with one curt, contemptuous monosyllable
Bunk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valéry
L'Histoire est le produit le plus dangereux que la chimie de l'intellect ait élaboré.... Il fait rêver, il enivre les peuples, leur engendre de faux souvenirs, exagère leurs réflexes, entretient leurs vieilles plaies, les conduit au délire des grandeurs ou à celui de la persécution, et rend les nations amères, superbes, insupportables, et vaines.
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Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. (1 Cor 13:4-8)
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Old 2004-04-14, 03:51   Link #50
atua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ialdaboth
What about Sei x Shimako ?

We have shoujo-ai on Shimako side, but I don't think Sei sentiments for Shimako are as strong, even if she care deeply for her little sister.

I don't know about you, but the relationship between these two is the one I found the most mysterious during the most part of the show...^^
Up until ep 13, I was sure that they had an intimate, but purely platonic relationship. They're two people who understood and care about one another deeply despite their low key public appearances. They're also my favourite soeur pairing (with Rei/Yoshino a close second).

*However*, my views have changed since ep 13, mainly due to the Shimako/Shizuka date. One side effect of the date is that Shimako is now a lot more aware of her own feelings for Sei. By equating her feelings with Shizuka's, it's strongly implied that they share the same feelings towards Sei. They're both happy to know and love Sei, but they both also know that their love is an unrequited one. It was a lovely, poignant scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
^_^ er..truth be told. i honestly dont like shimako.
Hehe, that's okay because I don't particularly like Sachiko's character. She's far too concerned about her public appearance, both physical and behavioural, and her "respectability" for me to like her wholeheartedly. Sachiko seems all too willing to play hard and fast with ethics if that's what it takes to look good. For example, when she flat out lied to the Yamayurikai about knowing Yumi.

Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to be a person who's self-aware enough to work through some of her more negative appearance-oriented traits. On top of that, she isn't a very perceptive person, and often has trouble relating to other people. Her sense of humour could use some work too. So while she's a very beautiful character (appearance wise), I often have doubts as to her character and motives...

That said, I appreciate the fact that Sachiko would be under tremendous family pressure to perform as the only child of a rich family, and that as a result she's had a lonely and sometimes socially awkward life to date. Meeting Youko and then Yumi have really been the best things to have happened to her life.
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Old 2004-04-14, 11:18   Link #51
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The fact that these characters are so different from each other really makes it interesting. I personally don't dislike any of the characters, simply because if the characters weren't they are the story won't be the same. Though on the other side of it there certainly a couple of characters if met in real life would definitely rub me the wrong way, Shimako and Sachiko would definitely fit that.

As for Shimako and Sei, that is an odd relationship. Certainly hard to figure. I'm going to have to pay more attention to it as I rewatch the shows again.
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Old 2004-04-14, 16:00   Link #52
Göönk
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yeah it's off topic but so true.
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Old 2004-04-14, 18:25   Link #53
Rosa_Gigantea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
here's my two cents...

yoshino/rei


- possible shoujo ai. bestfriends tend to be possesive true. but then again.. how many bestfriends do you see getting all jealous and fiery? it maybe a fact that yoshino has been sick all her life(?) but getting fired up with a single date? not likely. it's just a date.. a half-day date at that. surely yoshino didnt expect the fan what was the girl's name again? - to become rei's bestfriend within at least 5 hours?

sachiko/yumi

- aherm... this one is a bit too early to say. having only seen the anime my views are limited. but from what i see and what i've mentioned on some other debate, yumi is NOT that innocent. she knows what a lesbian is. check the valentine's ep where she was thinking something about rosa doggie er.. canina.


sei/shiori


- this one is BLATANT shoujo ai. if you cant see it.. then you have to get a density check right this instant. ask every straight person you know to watch the ep. and they'll give you the same answer: 'ick they're lesbians!' or something else that attains to homosexuality.

sei/canina


- unrequited. but shoujo ai love nonetheless.
Agree completely ^_^
Also in the manga and novel, you can tell Yumi isn't that dense about same sex issues.
btw has anyone else seen the valentine day special from the manga? Yumi literally spends all day making the perfect chocolate for Sachiko to the point she neglects making any for her father so her brother has to go out in the middle of the night to get their dad something ^^; Sorry but there's just a little more to Yumi's obsession with Sachiko :P
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Old 2004-04-14, 20:36   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa_Gigantea
Agree completely ^_^
Also in the manga and novel, you can tell Yumi isn't that dense about same sex issues.
btw has anyone else seen the valentine day special from the manga? Yumi literally spends all day making the perfect chocolate for Sachiko to the point she neglects making any for her father so her brother has to go out in the middle of the night to get their dad something ^^; Sorry but there's just a little more to Yumi's obsession with Sachiko :P
Did see the special, very funny. Obsession is correct, but I don't think it's sexual, more like she's trying to live up to the perfection she believes is Sachiko, puts the pressure on herself.
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Old 2004-04-14, 21:42   Link #55
Rosa_Gigantea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MercuryKnight
Did see the special, very funny. Obsession is correct, but I don't think it's sexual, more like she's trying to live up to the perfection she believes is Sachiko, puts the pressure on herself.
just curious if your male friend went through all that trouble to make you a chocolate for valentine would you still be singing the same tune? :P

I bet if the entire cast of maria mite were guys and they did the exact same thing everyone would label them as gay.
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Old 2004-04-15, 08:06   Link #56
himalayan
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i was thinking of letting this pass but er... im bored so... again my two cents ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercuryKnight
Did see the special, very funny. Obsession is correct, but I don't think it's sexual, more like she's trying to live up to the perfection she believes is Sachiko, puts the pressure on herself.
dude not all shoujo ai couples feel sexually atrracted with each other at the early stages of their relationship. of course yumi's feeling isnt (yet) sexual. anyone with two eyes and a nose can see that. you also have to take note that we're talking about girl/girl 'teenage' relationship here. i dont know about you but most of my girl crushes start out with pure admiration until it reaches to the yes, sex part. but that comes late. that's why it's called 'growing up' and yumi is currently experiencing that.

when i said yumi is aware what a lesbian is i wasnt suggesting she was one. i was merely implying that she _could_ be one. note that when sachiko said something about sei suga's book and yumi seemed all too happy and proud that she knows sei. i mean c'mon, let's not be hypocrites... most straight women with NO bisexual tendencies at all dont go 'yay! im so proud i have a lesbian friend'.. though they might be open minded.. yumi's reaction is a tad bit overboard specially with her age.

another observation i just want to say is that.. somehow the word 'lesbian' is not that acceptable in this forum. what's with the word anyways? is it too blunt? so we ought to use shoujo or yuri in that case huh? prrrt. grow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atua

Hehe, that's okay because I don't particularly like Sachiko's character. She's far too concerned about her public appearance, both physical and behavioural, and her "respectability" for me to like her wholeheartedly. Sachiko seems all too willing to play hard and fast with ethics if that's what it takes to look good. For example, when she flat out lied to the Yamayurikai about knowing Yumi.
the last time i checked it wasnt because of her public appearance that she lied to the yamayurikai. it was because she didnt want the cinderella (?) role. that said, i dont think it's all about 'looking good', her reason might be selfish but to suggest that sachiko's prior concern is the way other people view her is downright invalid. :P

plus she did went out on a date with yumi. so it might suggest that sachiko doesnt care what her fans/other people would think of her going out and shopping on a mediocre mall.
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Last edited by himalayan; 2004-04-15 at 08:23.
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Old 2004-04-15, 10:34   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa_Gigantea
just curious if your male friend went through all that trouble to make you a chocolate for valentine would you still be singing the same tune? :P

I bet if the entire cast of maria mite were guys and they did the exact same thing everyone would label them as gay.
All I can say to that is guys can't act that way because people stereo type them. It the presure of society. But if you don't think the same think happens behind the scenes then your sadly mistaken. As a teenager I personally would have gone to great lengths to do something for an older school mate I idolized so that they might notice me. Does that make me gay, I think not. But I read things the way I do and you read them your way. If everyone thought the same way this would be one damn boring conversation.

Unfortunately the only person who's ever made me candy out of love is my wife. I don't know quite honestly how I would react if a male did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himalayan
dude not all shoujo ai couples feel sexually atrracted with each other at the early stages of their relationship. of course yumi's feeling isnt (yet) sexual. anyone with two eyes and a nose can see that. you also have to take note that we're talking about girl/girl 'teenage' relationship here. i dont know about you but most of my girl crushes start out with pure admiration until it reaches to the yes, sex part. but that comes late. that's why it's called 'growing up' and yumi is currently experiencing that
So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. I personally don't believe that for a minute. It is no more true for guys then girls. It is quite acceptable to become to admire or idolize someone and to ultimately have a relationship his that person which is non-sexual in nature. That's is all I'm saying and that is how I see Yumi's relationship with Sachiko. That's my opinion.
As far as Yumi's reaction being overboard. They do tend to over dramitize in Anime to make a point.

P.S. I really don't care to be refered to as 'dude', would you please refrain from it in the future. Thank you
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Last edited by MercuryKnight; 2004-04-15 at 10:57.
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Old 2004-04-15, 11:47   Link #58
himalayan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MercuryKnight

So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. I personally don't believe that for a minute. It is no more true for guys then girls. It is quite acceptable to become to admire or idolize someone and to ultimately have a relationship his that person which is non-sexual in nature. That's is all I'm saying and that is how I see Yumi's relationship with Sachiko. That's my opinion.
As far as Yumi's reaction being overboard. They do tend to over dramitize in Anime to make a point.
er.. you're missing my point. and i dont get most of your idea as well. what am i saying is that 'not all' shoujo ai couples start out lusting for each other. get my drift?

so..

yumi not having sexual desire ( at the moment) for sachiko is NOT equal to yumi NOT being a yes... you guessed it, lesbian.

yumi completely aware of what a lesbian is, isNOT equal to yumi being a lesbian.


and regarding your line.. 'So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. ' -- now where did that came from? o_O it would be better if you re-read my post perhaps you'll understand it better now...
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Old 2004-04-15, 13:44   Link #59
atua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
when i said yumi is aware what a lesbian is i wasnt suggesting she was one. i was merely implying that she _could_ be one. note that when sachiko said something about sei suga's book and yumi seemed all too happy and proud that she knows sei. i mean c'mon, let's not be hypocrites... most straight women with NO bisexual tendencies at all dont go 'yay! im so proud i have a lesbian friend'.. though they might be open minded.. yumi's reaction is a tad bit overboard specially with her age.
That may be your personal experience, but I know straight people who acted the way Yumi did when they found out. For some people, meeting a bisexual or gay person is a real novelty. It's one thing to read about gay people from the media, but a very different thing to actually meet "one of those people" in real life. Some of them are very proud of their broad mindedness. They usually mean well, but their exuberant reactions can be a bit surprising (or just plain amusing) to others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
another observation i just want to say is that.. somehow the word 'lesbian' is not that acceptable in this forum. what's with the word anyways? is it too blunt? so we ought to use shoujo or yuri in that case huh? prrrt. grow up.
I think that's a rather harsh and unfair sentiment. Shoujo-ai and yuri are just the most common terms used in the anime community. I find this to be the case from what I've seen here in animesuki and in other anime/manga based forums/mailing lists/irc channels. So I think it's just a matter of language and has nothing to do with the maturity (or lack thereof) of the readers and posters here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
the last time i checked it wasnt because of her public appearance that she lied to the yamayurikai. it was because she didnt want the cinderella (?) role. that said, i dont think it's all about 'looking good', her reason might be selfish but to suggest that sachiko's prior concern is the way other people view her is downright invalid. :P
Perhaps the yamiyurikai example could've been better chosen, but I believe that "keeping up appearances" was certainly a factor in Sachiko and Yumi's encounter with the teacher. I don't mean to imply that Sachiko is a two dimensional character. Obviously she has other motivations that drive her as well. But I do think that keeping up appearances is a big part of her character.

Sachiko is very concerned with acting in the "right" and "proper" way. For example, her annoyance with Mifuyu for standing on the swing, and the first year girl for her sloppy uniform. As a member of a prestigious family, there would be a certain family expectation for Sachiko to uphold the family's reputation and to not damage the family name.

As Youko says, Sachiko does what is expected of her, even if she may not understand why. She'll do things (like lying) to cover up any perceived imperfections she may have (real or otherwise). Why do you think she took up all those extracurricular classes? I don't think it's because she sincerely wanted to learn all those things in the first place, or she would've put up more of a fight when Youko asked her to drop them all. So I think she did it to earn approval, either from her parents, teachers or from others (or maybe just to get her family off her case). I don't know about Japanese parents, but I know some Chinese parents are notorious for comparing their children's achievements to other children (as if that said anything about the quality of their parenting), and make very critical remarks if the children don't measure up.

While Mifuyu may think that Sachiko is a perfect, elegant perceptive lady, we the audience can see her flaws a lot better. Eg when we found out that she basically sleep walked through the morning she met Yumi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
plus she did went out on a date with yumi. so it might suggest that sachiko doesnt care what her fans/other people would think of her going out and shopping on a mediocre mall.
Yes, but did she do this out of ingrained politeness and duty or from true affection? I don't think there's a clearcut answer, at least just from what's shown in the anime. Admittedly towards the end of the season, particularly in ep 12-13, she seems to unthaw around Yumi. Maybe I'll think differently next season, but until then I don't have a firm opinion as to Sachiko's motives towards Yumi.

If anyone disagrees with any of the above, maybe you can state your reasons for disagreeing as well (rather than just saying you disagree).
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Old 2004-04-15, 14:09   Link #60
Ialdaboth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himalayan
another observation i just want to say is that.. somehow the word 'lesbian' is not that acceptable in this forum. what's with the word anyways? is it too blunt? so we ought to use shoujo or yuri in that case huh? prrrt. grow up.
It seems to me you are a bit overreacting.

IMO, 'lesbian' is not the word that should qualify (yet ? ) Sachiko and Yumi's relationship (especially when one compare their relationship with SeiXShiori or ReiXYoshino), but I've only seen the first season (and I try to avoid letting doujinshis dictate my vision of the characters ^^ ).

Now, if Yumi begin to wander around the school kissing pretty girls...

I think I'm going to like the 2nd season even more...

Last edited by Ialdaboth; 2004-04-15 at 15:22.
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