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Old 2008-06-17, 17:31   Link #1181
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Not sure if that's a good analogy. Replicants from the sound of it, are anatomically human in every way except in the way their brains are programmed. They have a different set instinctive reactions to certain stimuli. It sounds like they were built from the ground up differently than a normal Homo Saipian.

Yuki is different in my mind. While Yuki's "Meateware" OS probably has all the normal programming that a normal human has from birth, she (and likely all the other IDE humans) have several drawbacks in regards to their human nature. It all essentially comes down to two systems competing with each other.

1.The intellectual part her mind is totally dominated by her IDE born OS. Although she likely has a normal conscious human mind, it's input is minimal compared to the alien part. This alien intellectual part of Yuki's mind has no understanding of human behavior.
*(Another insight on this, after another point)

2.Her human mind is immature. Even if we assume Yuki's "meat" ware is completely identical to that of a normal human in form and function, it doesn't have the normal programming that humans attain from interacting with other humans. Her human aspect is like one of those wild children who at first glance seem severely retarded.

*:Of course the human mind is more than that thing that we hear in our heads, or that imagines things. Pretty much all human emotion is based in our unconscious mind. This type of behavior is probably completely absent from the IDE, who probably have perfect control and awareness of their mental facilities. So while Yuki's IDE mind dominates here intellectual self, her unconscious emotions hold undo influence on her titanic intellect.

Imagine if you will, a baby hooked up to a giant war machine, with a hyper intelligent artificial intelligience. The babies pure emotional feelings dictates the course of action of the AI, causing it commit to utterly unfathomable course of actions with all the precision of a hyper intelligent AI.

This would explain why every IDE we've seen, seems stuck into one kind of emotional state at all times. The IDE part of it has no practical understanding of human behavior, while it's human part is to immature to not come off as mentally deranged. Thus, they merely pick an emotion that will fit most of the circumstances that particular unit will be in, and put themselves in lock down mode. Thus explaining Yuki's and Asakura's completely unchanged behavior from when going about their normal daily behavior, and trying to rip each other to shreds.

...that was wordy
My analogy to replicants was because both replicants and the LHIs (Living Humanoid Interfaces) are artificially created humans, who were not "born" the same way humans are.

Also, I use the term "wetware" rather than "meatware", but...

I always thought that the reason Yuki shows little emotion compared to Kimidori and Asakura is because she was closed off from humanity for three years, watching Kyon and Mikuru, while Kimidori, Asakura, and the others had the opportunity to learn.

Where Asakura may not seem to be capable of anything other than cheerfulness, Kimidori has shown a wider range of emotions, from sadness in Mysterique Sign, to cheerfulness in Editor-in-Chief, and cold spite (towards Kuyoh and possibly Kyon) in Vol. 9.

Yuki, too, has evolved greatly, although her emotional responses are still very stunted compared to Kimidori.

The "baby" analogy might work for newly created LHIs like Kuyoh, who is very very robotic, but not for those with teenage brains who have had 3 years of human interaction/fallen in love with Kyon.

The LHIs also seem to be separate, mentally, from their creators, as Yuki is able to make choices that contradict what her masters want.
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Old 2008-06-17, 18:25   Link #1182
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
My analogy to replicants was because both replicants and the LHIs (Living Humanoid Interfaces) are artificially created humans, who were not "born" the same way humans are.

Also, I use the term "wetware" rather than "meatware", but...
No. Meatware is far more appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I always thought that the reason Yuki shows little emotion compared to Kimidori and Asakura is because she was closed off from humanity for three years, watching Kyon and Mikuru, while Kimidori, Asakura, and the others had the opportunity to learn.
We don't know exactly how old Kimidori and Asakura are. It's possible they were also constructed at the same time as Yuki, when Haruhi released her Data flare.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Where Asakura may not seem to be capable of anything other than cheerfulness, Kimidori has shown a wider range of emotions, from sadness in Mysterique Sign, to cheerfulness in Editor-in-Chief, and cold spite (towards Kuyoh and possibly Kyon) in Vol. 9.
True. We know that the IDE's are not carbon copies of each other, and each of them probably have their own extent of proper understanding of context. Perhaps Kimidori was created some time before Haruhi's data flare, and has more gained more experience.

But still. This merely puts her at the top of all the other IDE humans that we have seen so far, and it is not particularly impressive. All that's really be required of her presence, is to show up in a certain mode before hand, and hold it to achieve whatever purpose she needs.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yuki, too, has evolved greatly, although her emotional responses are still very stunted compared to Kimidori.
Very stunted is an understatement. And again I will admit that Kimidiro has adapted to her inherit state far better than Yuki has as far as what we've seen.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The "baby" analogy might work for newly created LHIs like Kuyoh, who is very very robotic, but not for those with teenage brains who have had 3 years of human interaction/fallen in love with Kyon.
Not to diss Yuki to badly, but lets be honest.

She did rewrite the universe, and obliterating an entire race of intelligent life in the process. For that period of the time loop in disappearance, the IDE ceased to exist. All because she wanted a reality to be with Kyon (And maybe partially because she wished to be a normal human).

I like Yuki, but you're being dishonest if you don't admit she has problems.

The LHI's seem to suffer from a different problem. Even Yuki when Kyon met her 3 years ago, was able to effectively communicate, despite being created a short time ago. And they are knowledgeable enough about humans that they can create persona's that allow their interfaces to go about their business with minimal out of the ordinary behavior. These pre set behaviors prop them up somewhat, so they don't come off as weird to humans.

The Kuyoh seemed to lack even basic language skills. They might know words, but they can't quite figure out the appropriate words to convey their meanings to humans. The problem as a whole with Kuyoh probably isn't so much emotional maturity, as much a fundamental language and thought process barrier between the LHI and humanity, that the IDE have managed to somewhat cross.

Yuki has a great advantage over Kuyoh when it comes to apparent human likeness, because the IDE seems to have a better understanding of Humanity than the rival faction.
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Old 2008-06-18, 00:24   Link #1183
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Wetware.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
We don't know exactly how old Kimidori and Asakura are. It's possible they were also constructed at the same time as Yuki, when Haruhi released her Data flare.
Everyone was constructed directly after the data flare, in response to it. The IDSE only thought Earth of any importance after it.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
True. We know that the IDE's are not carbon copies of each other, and each of them probably have their own extent of proper understanding of context. Perhaps Kimidori was created some time before Haruhi's data flare, and has more gained more experience.
See above. In addition, according to the espers, they shouldn't even have existed before the data flare.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
But still. This merely puts her at the top of all the other IDE humans that we have seen so far, and it is not particularly impressive. All that's really be required of her presence, is to show up in a certain mode before hand, and hold it to achieve whatever purpose she needs.
So what you're saying is that the LHIs don't have the capacity for normal emotional responses, and that they have to set certain "modes"? No no no. That's not the way it works.

They learn and grow, and learn to use the reptile part of their brain. They're like robots with emotional chips. Like Data from Star Trek.

They're not omnipotent enough to "know" when to set certain emotions to "on". Their responses are geniune

Although, it is interesting that Kimidori alone seems capable of functioning normally. Asakura was almost too cheerful and smiley, and everyone who sees Yuki regards her as weird.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Not to diss Yuki to badly, but lets be honest.

She did rewrite the universe, and obliterating an entire race of intelligent life in the process. For that period of the time loop in disappearance, the IDE ceased to exist. All because she wanted a reality to be with Kyon (And maybe partially because she wished to be a normal human).

I like Yuki, but you're being dishonest if you don't admit she has problems.
I never said she didn't have problems, just that her interaction with Kyon has given her access to emotions she never had. Before him, she was almost exactly like Kuyoh, minus the speech impediment.

Her emotions, in fact, are the root of her problems. Which is why she tries to shut them out after Vol. 4.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The LHI's seem to suffer from a different problem. Even Yuki when Kyon met her 3 years ago, was able to effectively communicate, despite being created a short time ago. And they are knowledgeable enough about humans that they can create persona's that allow their interfaces to go about their business with minimal out of the ordinary behavior. These pre set behaviors prop them up somewhat, so they don't come off as weird to humans.
Again, the LHIs do have emotions, not just emotional responses. Yuki is almost literally a robot in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, and when Kyon unfreezes he notices the difference immediately.

Also, you're using the terms wrong. Here's a short glossary:

LHI (Living Humanoid Interface)- The bioroids created by data entities in order to spy on Haruhi and humanity in general.

IDSE (Integrated Data Sentient Entity)- A hivemind of powerful data entities that transcend time and space, they have reached an evolutionary dead end, and wish to study the Harupowers in order to figure out how they work. The singular form is "Integrated Data Entity" or IDE.

MQCE (Macrospatial Quantum Cosmic Existence), nicknamed the "Canopy Domain"- Another powerful hivemind of data entities, rivals to the IDSE. Their LHIs seem to be more primitive and less human than their rivals. Their motives are unknown, but probably similar to that of the IDSE.

Harupowers, or "Incredible Cosmic Powers"- Those powers unlocked by Haruhi and her ilk, they give their user unlimited control over data.


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The Kuyoh seemed to lack even basic language skills. They might know words, but they can't quite figure out the appropriate words to convey their meanings to humans. The problem as a whole with Kuyoh probably isn't so much emotional maturity, as much a fundamental language and thought process barrier between the LHI and humanity, that the IDE have managed to somewhat cross.
I thought it was because the Canopy Domain suck at building their interfaces.


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Yuki has a great advantage over Kuyoh when it comes to apparent human likeness, because the IDE seems to have a better understanding of Humanity than the rival faction.
It may also be because Yuki has been around a lot longer, too, while Kuyoh seems to be recently created.
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Old 2008-06-18, 00:41   Link #1184
Nappy Hared Azn
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LOL. I love how everyone acts like an expert.

Face it folks; you're arguing over a translation* of a translation of a novel. No matter how much "evidence" you present, you're probably both wrong.

* - Keep in mind that Baka-Tsuki isn't exactly known for being the most accurate when it comes to translations. Yeah, I know there's no one else translating . . . but they still suck. Not only that, but they translate (IIRC) the Chinese version of the novel. TL;DR: there's two opportunities for something to get lost in translation.
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Old 2008-06-18, 00:56   Link #1185
Kaisos Erranon
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LOL. I love how everyone acts like an expert.

Face it folks; you're arguing over a translation* of a translation of a novel. No matter how much "evidence" you present, you're probably both wrong.

* - Keep in mind that Baka-Tsuki isn't exactly known for being the most accurate when it comes to translations. Yeah, I know there's no one else translating . . . but they still suck. Not only that, but they translate (IIRC) the Chinese version of the novel. TL;DR: there's two opportunities for something to get lost in translation.
Most of what we're saying is extrapolation anyway.

Also, not all of B-T's stuff was translated from Chinese.

Maybe you should read the novels before you make statements like that.

You fail miserably.
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Old 2008-06-18, 02:17   Link #1186
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Everyone was constructed directly after the data flare, in response to it. The IDSE only thought Earth of any importance after it.
According to Yuki, the IDSE was already interested in Earth at the time of the data flare, simply because humans possessed something that could be considered as "intellect." However, the part about the interfaces being created after it is still plausible, as we already know Yuki was created after it.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2008-06-18, 02:18   Link #1187
Kaisos Erranon
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According to Yuki, the IDSE was already interested in Earth at the time of the data flare, simply because humans possessed something that could be considered as "intellect." However, the part about the interfaces being created after it is still plausible, as we already know Yuki was created after it.
Okay, I'm wrong.

Still, I doubt they thought of actually contacting them until AFTER the data flare.
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Old 2008-06-18, 05:38   Link #1188
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Everyone was constructed directly after the data flare, in response to it. The IDSE only thought Earth of any importance after it.
According to Yuki in her initial Data dump, they already had some interest in earth, for the simple fact humanity was the only intelligent organics they'd ever seen. Before they'd thought it was impossible.

Even before Haruhi they seemed to consider humanity as a possible solution for their evolutionary dead end. Before Haruhi though, they might have just been content to observe.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
See above. In addition, according to the espers, they shouldn't even have existed before the data flare.
It's important to remember, that Itsuki has told allot of contradictory things related to Haruhi. We must remember that aside from their telepathic link to Haruhi, and their ability to enter closed space, their knowledge of the universe is as limited as anyone else's.

Then theres a fundamental flaw in that particular arguement by Itsuki. The arguement comes under the basic assumption, that supernatural beings like the time Travelers, and IDE cannot exist in a rational, normal universe. Therefore, something most have consciously created willed them to coexist in the normal world.

This runs smack dab into the problem, that the existence of Haruhi herself (Or more specifically, her reality warping ablities) seems to point to that this is not a fundamentally normal universe. What seems more unlikely. Time travel and aliens that make very efficient use of energy, or a god like entity that could very easily violate E=MC^2 with a jackhammer.

Not to say that I don't believe it's a possibility (Whitch it certainly is), I'm just a little dubious about it's probability since the only people who seemed to want to even speculate it was a bunch of primitives, who we know only have super natural abilities because god bestowed it upon them. This is opposed to Galaxy old super intelligent aliens, and the future humans who can time travel.
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So what you're saying is that the LHIs don't have the capacity for normal emotional responses, and that they have to set certain "modes"? No no no. That's not the way it works.
They have the capacity for it. All the mental switches for such behavior is in their head. But given their lack of normal human experience, and the fact the IDE is a little dense on human motivations, I could see them having trouble behaving without some kind of preset "crutch" to help define their actions.

As a LHI gained more normal experience though, they would come to rely on it less and less.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
They learn and grow, and learn to use the reptile part of their brain. They're like robots with emotional chips. Like Data from Star Trek.
Agreed. I'm just arguing that initially, the IDE would probably want to outline a basic "bland" personality, so the LHI would have some basis from which to whatever circumstance they were in. They certainly don't have the emotional intelligience on their organic OS to be able to function normally.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
They're not omnipotent enough to "know" when to set certain emotions to "on". Their responses are geniune
Exactly. They don't know when certain emotions are appropriate based on context. Asakura did not change her persona a bit while trying to disembowel Kyon. One minute she's nice class rep girl...next minute she's nice class rep girl with a knife. She litterally didn't know of any other way to act.

A standard LHI fresh out of the box needs to have some kind of stereotypical personality pattern given to them, because without it all their emotional short comings become obvious even in casual conversation (Like Kuyoh).

Yuki probably got a more stoic personality, because responding to everything stoically might seem odd, but it's far less unusual than Asakura's Smiley mcstab stab.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Although, it is interesting that Kimidori alone seems capable of functioning normally. Asakura was almost too cheerful and smiley, and everyone who sees Yuki regards her as weird.
Kimidori indeed is the most interesting LHI we've seen so far.

Wasn't it implied post disappearance, that Kimidori had been assigned as Yuki's "Chaperon"? This would imply that she is somewhat higher on the totem pole than Yuki is. Like wise, Asakura was designated as only being Yuki's backup.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I never said she didn't have problems, just that her interaction with Kyon has given her access to emotions she never had. Before him, she was almost exactly like Kuyoh, minus the speech impediment.

Her emotions, in fact, are the root of her problems. Which is why she tries to shut them out after Vol. 4.
As you mentioned earlier, she is evolving. It has yet to be seen if this evolution makes her fundamentally more stable. Although she probably won't get away with doing anything in the future, for the simple reason that the IDE is keeping a short leash on her.

Although she has managed to avoid any overt punishment, given Kyons threat to unleash the reality warping pit bull if such happens.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Again, the LHIs do have emotions, not just emotional responses. Yuki is almost literally a robot in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, and when Kyon unfreezes he notices the difference immediately.
Yes. But they still need some kinda guideline in which to develop themselves, and handle human interaction. They don't have the advantage that normal humans have, where they can grow into a fully developed personality. The IDE probably assign a incomplete one, and let the LHI grow into, and expand out of.

It'd be interesting to see what 3 year ago Kimidori, and Asakura were like... Yuki's still somewhat like a robot (because she's stoic), but Asakura and Kimidori have more outgoing personalties. They might come off as more uncanny trying to do human emotion incorrectly, compared to Yuki that holds a complete poker face.


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, you're using the terms wrong. Here's a short glossary:
I was trying to translate some of the terms out of Yuki babble, but some of them I was indeed using the wrong terminology.

Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I thought it was because the Canopy Domain suck at building their interfaces.
Perhaps them not knowing this is why they suck at building interfaces

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It may also be because Yuki has been around a lot longer, too, while Kuyoh seems to be recently created.
We have to assume that during the Tanatabe time travel episode, that Yuki wasn't that old at the time given the fact she said during the Info dump that she was created 3 years ago. Despite having practically no human experience at this point, she was able to communicate sucessfully with Kyon.

The MQCE seems to either not to have proper Data on human language, or their thought process is different in a way that makes it harder for them to transmit and receive info via their LHI.
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Originally Posted by Nappy Hared Azn View Post
LOL. I love how everyone acts like an expert.

Face it folks; you're arguing over a translation* of a translation of a novel. No matter how much "evidence" you present, you're probably both wrong.

* - Keep in mind that Baka-Tsuki isn't exactly known for being the most accurate when it comes to translations. Yeah, I know there's no one else translating . . . but they still suck. Not only that, but they translate (IIRC) the Chinese version of the novel. TL;DR: there's two opportunities for something to get lost in translation.
Silence ye insolent wretch!

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Okay, I'm wrong.

Still, I doubt they thought of actually contacting them until AFTER the data flare.
Understandable. We're talking about individuals who can probably flick "Data" from matter into energy or vice versa like flicking a light switch. Human data manipulation was only worth noting because it came from meat. It might have only been eccentric IDE who seriously thought that meat would posses the possibility for evolution.

Of course, then one of the humans demonstrates powers that actually break the laws of physics. Not the laws of physics "as we know it, thus proving the universe is different than we thought it was", but actually breaking it like a 2 by 4 to a pot of China.

It'd be like finding the insects in your back yard building anti matter reactors.
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Old 2008-06-18, 06:50   Link #1189
ganbaru
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I am not sure that the time factor is much of a factor for the LDEs, Their master are not bound to time but they are ''living'' in 4 dimentions ( 3 spatial and 1 for time ), so is it going to create a a pradoxe? the gap betweem the LDEs and their master.
By the way the LDEs ''lived'' for 3 years until the start of the story, but after ''endless 8'' the 3 year become buch more.
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Old 2008-06-18, 06:53   Link #1190
Roger Rambo
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But weren't all the occupants of the universe unable to remember any experiences they had during endless 8? They might have been able to figure out it was happening, but I'm pretty sure no experience was gained.

The actual specifics of the link of the human mind, to a 4th dimensional entity are bound to be very fascinating.
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Old 2008-06-18, 07:40   Link #1191
ganbaru
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But weren't all the occupants of the universe unable to remember any experiences they had during endless 8? They might have been able to figure out it was happening, but I'm pretty sure no experience was gained.
The human were not able , but the LDEs ( at least Nagato) were aware ( and were able to remember)of the phenomene , we may think than the LDEs and their master did gain experience/information while the endless 8 incident.

Last edited by ganbaru; 2008-06-18 at 22:50.
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Old 2008-06-18, 12:56   Link #1192
Kaisos Erranon
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The human ere not able , but the LDEs ( at least Nagato) were aware ( and were able to remember)of the phenomene , we may think than the LDEs and their master did gain experience/information while the endless 8 incident.
This may be true, but it's one of the reasons Yuki went nuts/haywire. Also, experiencing the same thing over and over again isn't much experience at all, really.

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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
I am not sure that the time factor is much of a factor for the LDEs, Their master are not bound to time but they are ''living'' in 4 dimentions ( 3 spatial and 1 for time ), so is it going to create a a pradoxe? the gap betweem the LDEs and their master.
By the way the LDEs ''lived'' for 3 years until the start of the story, but after ''endless 8'' the 3 year become buch more.
Just because someone doesn't exist normally in time does not mean that they are not bound by it. If anything, knowing the future makes them more bound by time than anyone else.

It is for this reason that Yuki stops synchronizing after Vol. 4. She no longer wishes to know the future. She doesn't want to experience that sense of inevitability and defeat again.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
According to Yuki in her initial Data dump, they already had some interest in earth, for the simple fact humanity was the only intelligent organics they'd ever seen. Before they'd thought it was impossible.

Even before Haruhi they seemed to consider humanity as a possible solution for their evolutionary dead end. Before Haruhi though, they might have just been content to observe.
Exactly.


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It's important to remember, that Itsuki has told allot of contradictory things related to Haruhi. We must remember that aside from their telepathic link to Haruhi, and their ability to enter closed space, their knowledge of the

*snip*

and the future humans who can time travel.
Isn't it technically impossible to prove them wrong, though? The espers? They'd just point out that it's possible that everything was created 3 years ago with all their memories intact.

Of course, it's impossible to prove them right, but...


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
They have the capacity for it. All the mental switches for such behavior is in their head. But given their lack of normal human experience, and the fact the IDE is a little dense on human motivations, I could see them having trouble behaving without some kind of preset "crutch" to help define their actions.

As a LHI gained more normal experience though, they would come to rely on it less and less.
This is what I was trying to say too.


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Kimidori indeed is the most interesting LHI we've seen so far.

Wasn't it implied post disappearance, that Kimidori had been assigned as Yuki's "Chaperon"? This would imply that she is somewhat higher on the totem pole than Yuki is. Like wise, Asakura was designated as only being Yuki's backup.
I always thought that all three were from different sects of the ISDE. Yuki was from the "let's keep watching and stay quiet" faction, Ryoko from the "let's kill people she loves and see what happens" faction, and Kimidori from the "let's all try to get along even though we have enormous differences" faction.

It makes her a good chaperone for a possibly rogue interface.



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Although she has managed to avoid any overt punishment, given Kyons threat to unleash the reality warping pit bull if such happens.
Best description of Haruhi. Ever.


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Yes. But they still need some kinda guideline in which to develop themselves, and handle human interaction. They don't have the advantage that normal humans have, where they can grow into a fully developed personality.
Wouldn't they grow into a fully developed personality with enough time?


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It'd be interesting to see what 3 year ago Kimidori, and Asakura were like... Yuki's still somewhat like a robot (because she's stoic), but Asakura and Kimidori have more outgoing personalties. They might come off as more uncanny trying to do human emotion incorrectly, compared to Yuki that holds a complete poker face.
Overtly chipper Ryoko would be very amusing to see indeed.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
We have to assume that during the Tanatabe time travel episode, that Yuki wasn't that old at the time given the fact she said during the Info dump that she was created 3 years ago. Despite having practically no human experience at this point, she was able to communicate sucessfully with Kyon.
Synchronization. She gained the memories of her future self, remember?



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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Understandable. We're talking about individuals who can probably flick "Data" from matter into energy or vice versa like flicking a light switch. Human data manipulation was only worth noting because it came from meat. It might have only been eccentric IDE who seriously thought that meat would posses the possibility for evolution.

Of course, then one of the humans demonstrates powers that actually break the laws of physics. Not the laws of physics "as we know it, thus proving the universe is different than we thought it was", but actually breaking it like a 2 by 4 to a pot of China.

It'd be like finding the insects in your back yard building anti matter reactors.
Very, very good description there.
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Old 2008-06-18, 17:50   Link #1193
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It'd be like finding the insects in your back yard building anti matter reactors.
... They are on it... I think some of them are really smart. Now if those insects will use it against me is another story..
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Old 2008-06-18, 19:24   Link #1194
PastPrime
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It has occured to me that Kimidori might have been made after Yuki and Ryoko with the Data Entity using the knowledge that they had gained to make improvements. Yuki and Ryoko being first generation Interfaces and Kimidori being a second generation Interface.
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Old 2008-06-18, 19:39   Link #1195
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
The human ere not able , but the LDEs ( at least Nagato) were aware ( and were able to remember)of the phenomene , we may think than the LDEs and their master did gain experience/information while the endless 8 incident.
If that was the case, then Kyon would have suddenly noticed Yuki undergoing major changes for no discernible reason.

It's possible that Yuki's human side experianced the memory wipe, but her Data side didn't. Thus, no emotional development.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Isn't it technically impossible to prove them wrong, though? The espers? They'd just point out that it's possible that everything was created 3 years ago with all their memories intact.

Of course, it's impossible to prove them right, but...
Of course it's impossible to prove them wrong. We're dealing with a walking no limits fallacy here. Anything could be possible.

But just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's particularly likely. You use the arguement that this is the case because espers/Time Travelers/ Aliens don't belong in the normal universe, when Haruhi herself basically blows the normal universe theory out of the water.

In general, I put Itsuki's theory in the same category as everything else he's found by poking around his navel. Possible, but not inherently likely. I think the organization provides all this random musing to Kyon, to try to camouflage the fact that they don't have allot of useful solid information to provide Kyon like the IDE and time travelers. They do want to curry his favor.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is what I was trying to say too.
Forgive me If I did not properly convey my meaning.


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I always thought that all three were from different sects of the ISDE. Yuki was from the "let's keep watching and stay quiet" faction, Ryoko from the "let's kill people she loves and see what happens" faction, and Kimidori from the "let's all try to get along even though we have enormous differences" faction.

It makes her a good chaperone for a possibly rogue interface.
I'm not sure it's proper to say they're different factions per say. They all are united in the same organizational structure (Yuki is implied to be Asakura's superior) but within their structure their is dissent over what to do with Haruhi. This of course comes to the idea of how to get results, passive observation, or trying to do X to see what Y is.

I don't think you can say that Asakura's party only wants to get results by murder. They just want results. Arranging a car to splash a puddle all over Haruhi, to having the person she's attracted to brutally murdered are all the same to them, because they fundamentally don't understand how humans think.

It also seems like rather suicidal behavior, considering that if Haruhi found out about them, and had even a inkling to her own potential, they'd be instantly destroyed. But like Asakura said. They don't understand mortality the same way humans do, because they can't die. And they haven't met anything that can effectively wipe them out.

Speaking of this, this brings up a related theory regarding Lone Island Syndrome...

What If the organization arranged the incident on the island, in order to appease the radical faction of the IDE, and prevent them from doing anything hasty in the future? I can't imagine that the Organization just sat on their butts in response to Asakura trying to whack Kyon.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Best description of Haruhi. Ever.
Thanks


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Wouldn't they grow into a fully developed personality with enough time?
I sorta doubt it.

Even though Yuki's emotional human mind has a great deal of influence on her total thought process, her completely alien side has an extremely substantial role in it to. For Yuki to be a fully developed human, she couldn't have the giant monolithic alien component of her mind. At the same time, if you took this part of her away, Yuki would be a very different person.

The LHI are really sad when you consider them. While the anime and manga focuses on how alien Nagato is compared to the humans, we have to consider that to "Normal" IDE, she must appear similarly uncanny, if not more so. For humans, she can hide her alien nature under the persona of a stoic book worm, always reading. Slightly strange, but a person that you can keep as an informal friend.

Hiding her abnormal behavior (From the perspective of the IDE) from her alien brothers, is likely to be more difficult. The IDE seem to almost have telepathic links to each other. In that kind of environment, Yuki's alien personality (From the IDE perspective) is probably far more apparent than it is to humans.

This could possibly explain why she came to relate more with her human side, and why she wanted to just be a normal human.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Overtly chipper Ryoko would be very amusing to see indeed.
It would be freaky.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Synchronization. She gained the memories of her future self, remember?
Wouldn't that have resulted in Yuki's persona changing the instant Synchronization happened?

It sounds to me like the intellectual data from the IDE part of her brain got transmitted and received, but it seems somewhat possible that her base human feelings were unable to do so.
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Very, very good description there.
Thanks.
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Old 2008-06-18, 19:56   Link #1196
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
It has occured to me that Kimidori might have been made after Yuki and Ryoko with the Data Entity using the knowledge that they had gained to make improvements. Yuki and Ryoko being first generation Interfaces and Kimidori being a second generation Interface.
She certainly does seem more human than the other two... of course, in reality, this is because she wasn't originally intended to BE an interface by the author.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It's possible that Yuki's human side experianced the memory wipe, but her Data side didn't. Thus, no emotional development.
You're assuming that the sides are separate. I highly doubt that they are.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Of course it's impossible to prove them wrong. We're dealing with a walking no limits fallacy here. Anything could be possible.

*snip*
Nothing more really needed to be said on that. I was just making the point Koizumi always does.

Interestingly, though, the only Organization member that Kyon has any real contact with is Koizumi. So how do we know he's not lying?


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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I'm not sure it's proper to say they're different factions per say. They all are united in the same organizational structure (Yuki is implied to be Asakura's superior) but within their structure their is dissent over what to do with Haruhi. This of course comes to the idea of how to get results, passive observation, or trying to do X to see what Y is.
I always assumed that Yuki and Ryoko were paired together in order to keep an eye on each other, and that Yuki is only superior because she's better at using her powers. Logically, since Ryoko was put in a better position relative to Haruhi and is more socially capable, she should have been the one to be in charge, but...

Also, the words "rival factions" are used several times in the novels, and Kimidori is even stated to be from a different faction than either Yuki or Ryoko. Of course, it's Koizumi who says this, so...

Dammit. Half the infodumps come from Koizumi, and he can't be trusted.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I don't think you can say that Asakura's party only wants to get results by murder. They just want results. Arranging a car to splash a puddle all over Haruhi, to having the person she's attracted to brutally murdered are all the same to them, because they fundamentally don't understand how humans think.
I used a more extreme example to illustrate my point.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It also seems like rather suicidal behavior, considering that if Haruhi found out about them, and had even a inkling to her own potential, they'd be instantly destroyed. But like Asakura said. They don't understand mortality the same way humans do, because they can't die. And they haven't met anything that can effectively wipe them out.
I actually think that the interfaces CAN die, or at least be put into limbo. Unlike their creators, they seem to need a body to exist fully.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Speaking of this, this brings up a related theory regarding Lone Island Syndrome...

What If the organization arranged the incident on the island, in order to appease the radical faction of the IDE, and prevent them from doing anything hasty in the future? I can't imagine that the Organization just sat on their butts in response to Asakura trying to whack Kyon.
Haruhi never cared one whit about the Tamaru Brothers, though (other than the free food, lodging and booze.) A more logical response would have been to fake Kyon's death, at least.

I doubt that the Organization was planning anything other than
entertainment for Haruhi.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Even though Yuki's emotional human mind has a great deal of influence on her total thought process, her completely alien side has an extremely substantial role in it to. For Yuki to be a fully developed human, she couldn't have the giant monolithic alien component of her mind. At the same time, if you took this part of her away, Yuki would be a very different person.
Again, you're assuming that the sides are separate, and that the Interfaces are directly connected to the IDSE. I don't think they are.

The interfaces weren't alive before the three years ago event, they were created in response to it. Therefore, they only exist as their humanoid selves, and, as such, have less capacity than their creators.

What my point here is that, although their intellectual brain is incredibly powerful, human emotions, on anyone, can have a very overpowering effect.

Remember, discounting Endless Eight, Yuki is 3 years old. We have no idea of the extent that her emotional development could extend to.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Wouldn't that have resulted in Yuki's persona changing the instant Synchronization happened?

It sounds to me like the intellectual data from the IDE part of her brain got transmitted and received, but it seems somewhat possible that her base human feelings were unable to do so.
If her information about how to act more human was transferred, then it's possible that she could have become less robotic as a result, but I'm probably wrong on that count.

Also, can we please stop having such massive discussions?
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:02   Link #1197
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
If that was the case, then Kyon would have suddenly noticed Yuki undergoing major changes for no discernible reason.
He did noticed change when they were ''trapt'' in ''endless 8''.
By the way, in vol7 when Nagato said to Kyon than she need a other person aproval ( and her will to do so too) for any futur Synchronization, she never said who must give that aproval ,no ? And if it was not Kimidori?
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:06   Link #1198
Nappy Hared Azn
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Maybe you should read the novels before you make statements like that.

You fail miserably.
I have read the novels . . . and how exactly do I fail? I'm not the one arguing over the internet about semantics pertaining to a work of fiction. There's "otaku", and then there's "anime Trekkie".
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:08   Link #1199
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
He did noticed change when they were ''trapt'' in ''endless 8''.
By the way, in vol7 when Nagato said to Kyon than she need a other person aproval ( and her will to do so too) for any futur Synchronization, she never said who must give that aproval ,no ? And if it was not Kimidori?
It was Kimidori. No other LHIs have even shown up in the plot yet.

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I have read the novels . . . and how exactly do I fail? I'm not the one arguing over the internet about semantics pertaining to a work of fiction. There's "otaku", and then there's "anime Trekkie".
It's fantastic. I can't even argue with you, because I don't even understand what the bloody hell your point is.
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:14   Link #1200
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I was under the impression Yuki was over Kimidori during the Cave Cricket Incident. Almost manipulating her. It seems possible their roles reversed as part of Yuki's punishment.

Yuki seems to be the main observer while the other two knowns are backup units. It is possible that they were all equal units at first, but Kyon went to Yuki practically from the start, thus they know she will be the one that can observe best in the future, thus placing her as the main unit. Being in charge is an unknown at this point. More data is required.
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