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Old 2008-06-18, 23:17   Link #1201
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I was under the impression Yuki was over Kimidori during the Cave Cricket Incident. Almost manipulating her. It seems possible their roles reversed as part of Yuki's punishment.

Yuki seems to be the main observer while the other two knowns are backup units. It is possible that they were all equal units at first, but Kyon went to Yuki practically from the start, thus they know she will be the one that can observe best in the future, thus placing her as the main unit. Being in charge is an unknown at this point. More data is required.
I have a theory that Yuki was supposed to be the lowest-ranked, even with her better powers... she seems to be the least socially capable of the three we've seen, and they probably wanted someone capable of actually interacting with Haruhi.
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:27   Link #1202
Ithekro
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Perhaps she was the fail safe device? If things go badly with the other observer units (as it did with one), you have a unit that can delete them. The fail safe does not need as much social programming, only enough to pass as human and not be noticed (too much....she is still on the A list of girls of North High). The problem being that the random factor ("Kyon") more or less set in motion that the fail safe would become the main unit by his own interactions with her in the past (and knowledge of future events). Thus to maintain the timeline, Yuki approached Kyon first of the group, to complete the time loop of the two time travelers in her room. (though in one respect she did lie to Kyon...there was someone at her place when he came over the first time. Himself and Mikuru).
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:33   Link #1203
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Perhaps she was the fail safe device? If things go badly with the other observer units (as it did with one), you have a unit that can delete them. The fail safe does not need as much social programming, only enough to pass as human and not be noticed (too much....she is still on the A list of girls of North High). The problem being that the random factor ("Kyon") more or less set in motion that the fail safe would become the main unit by his own interactions with her in the past (and knowledge of future events). Thus to maintain the timeline, Yuki approached Kyon first of the group, to complete the time loop of the two time travelers in her room. (though in one respect she did lie to Kyon...there was someone at her place when he came over the first time. Himself and Mikuru).
That makes a lot of sense... if the author actually had planned that far in advance...

(I think we put more thought into this series than he does...)

Anyway, it's worth pointing out that Ryoko contacted Kyon before Yuki did. I doubt Ryoko was told about the time loop, though.
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:44   Link #1204
Ithekro
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Ryoko didn't tell him she was an alien either...until she tried to knife him. Yuki did tell him first.

And yes we've put more thought into it I would think. Some authors think that far ahead for backstory and possible future stories, but almost everything changes as you write it. I use to write stories, but haven't in several year now, so I do know about making up ones backstory and having lots of story ideas that need to connect with each other as well as a timeline for characters to follow. New ideas or details while writing the actual story can complicate your timeline, backstory, and future plans.

I don't even want to think what becoming a top rated success does to a timelime and future storylines. Not only are you now noticed, but have people on you for more. Plus money wanting changes. The headache itself would delay a project.
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Old 2008-06-18, 23:48   Link #1205
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The interfaces weren't alive before the three years ago event, they were created in response to it. Therefore, they only exist as their humanoid selves, and, as such, have less capacity than their creators.
Going by the stories that Yuki wrote it would seem that she was part of the Data Entity before becoming a Humanoid Interface. They also indicate that she does not want to return to the Data Entity.
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Old 2008-06-19, 00:05   Link #1206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Ryoko didn't tell him she was an alien either...until she tried to knife him. Yuki did tell him first.

And yes we've put more thought into it I would think. Some authors think that far ahead for backstory and possible future stories, but almost everything changes as you write it. I use to write stories, but haven't in several year now, so I do know about making up ones backstory and having lots of story ideas that need to connect with each other as well as a timeline for characters to follow. New ideas or details while writing the actual story can complicate your timeline, backstory, and future plans.

I don't even want to think what becoming a top rated success does to a timelime and future storylines. Not only are you now noticed, but have people on you for more. Plus money wanting changes. The headache itself would delay a project.
Which explains our current situation.

Ryoko talked to him first though. She noticed Haruhi was changing thanks to Kyon's interactions with her and urged him to continue, which fits in with her mission.

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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
Going by the stories that Yuki wrote it would seem that she was part of the Data Entity before becoming a Humanoid Interface. They also indicate that she does not want to return to the Data Entity.
Maybe, maybe not.

And, if I recall correctly, her stories indicate that she does want to go back to the Data Entity, but Koizumi isn't letting her.

Or something.
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Old 2008-06-19, 00:25   Link #1207
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I'm not sure if this had ever been mentioned before, but what if the mysterious girl in vol 9 is haruhi in slider form?
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Old 2008-06-19, 00:27   Link #1208
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Would that add a third superpower to the Kyon table?
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Old 2008-06-19, 00:32   Link #1209
Kaisos Erranon
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If there are any more gods besides Haruhi and Sasaki, I expect only two more.

The whole "Four Gods" thing, ya know.

Also, I just finished flipping through the Haruhi-chan manga... it looks damned interesting, but it desperately needs a translator...

Anyone interested?
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Old 2008-06-19, 04:05   Link #1210
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It was Kimidori. No other LHIs have even shown up in the plot yet.
I was wondering if it was not a LHIs?
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Old 2008-06-19, 09:11   Link #1211
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
She certainly does seem more human than the other two... of course, in reality, this is because she wasn't originally intended to BE an interface by the author.
Ain't retcons fun?
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You're assuming that the sides are separate. I highly doubt that they are.
It seems extremely likely that they are separate. The entire idea behind the LHI, is that by using an actual human mind as a go between, practical communication between humans and the IDE is possible. It would be kind of self defeating to modify the human brain to much, other wise it wouldn't be useful for communication.

Of course they are still connected into the overall system. So it's not that they're separate, more of in conflict with each other given that they're completely different designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nothing more really needed to be said on that. I was just making the point Koizumi always does.

Interestingly, though, the only Organization member that Kyon has any real contact with is Koizumi. So how do we know he's not lying?
The same could be said of the IDE and the time travelers. 99% of the contact he has between these factions are their specifically hand chosen representatives. All of them want Kyon to do specific things, in order to achieve their aims regarding Haruhi.

Koizumi says this outright, that each faction is trying to manipulate him via their representatives, even himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I always assumed that Yuki and Ryoko were paired together in order to keep an eye on each other, and that Yuki is only superior because she's better at using her powers. Logically, since Ryoko was put in a better position relative to Haruhi and is more socially capable, she should have been the one to be in charge, but...

Also, the words "rival factions" are used several times in the novels, and Kimidori is even stated to be from a different faction than either Yuki or Ryoko. Of course, it's Koizumi who says this, so...

Dammit. Half the infodumps come from Koizumi, and he can't be trusted.
Ain't limited perspective fun?
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I actually think that the interfaces CAN die, or at least be put into limbo. Unlike their creators, they seem to need a body to exist fully.
I got the impression that Asakura's alien mind was still intact after her body was destroyed. She would of course have lost all of her humanity, but her alien mind would likely to have been intact.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Haruhi never cared one whit about the Tamaru Brothers, though (other than the free food, lodging and booze.) A more logical response would have been to fake Kyon's death, at least.

I doubt that the Organization was planning anything other than
entertainment for Haruhi.
Haruhi isn't that heartless. She was clearly upset by the older brothers death. She was clearly upset, and given that her emotions are tied to her Data output, we'd likely get some kind of spike the IDE could observe.

And faking Kyon's death goes completely contrary to what they would be "theoretically" aiming to achieve. You are trying to put Haruhi under a controlled stress situation, that can easily be circumvented by revealing that it was all just a game. Faking Kyon's death is a bad idea, because you might get more of a reaction that would reasonably be safe for reality. They needed to fake the death of someone Haruhi could find likable, but didn't know well enough to be "to" upset by their death.

I also think that their actions were a bit to ballsy to just be for Haruhi's entertainment.


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I have read the novels . . . and how exactly do I fail? I'm not the one arguing over the internet about semantics pertaining to a work of fiction. There's "otaku", and then there's "anime Trekkie".
I fail to see how discussing theory on the back story for an anime on a forum, is somehow less redeemed than using the forum to add to your pr0n collection.
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Old 2008-06-19, 09:23   Link #1212
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And, if I recall correctly, her stories indicate that she does want to go back to the Data Entity, but Koizumi isn't letting her.

Or something.
If she wanted to go back I don't think that she would have equated going back to the data Entity with going into a coffin. and her first story implies that she existed for a long time before becoming an Interface, but as part of something much larger with no understanding of self. I suspect that by the time the mission is over many of the Humanoid Interfaces may refuse to return.
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Old 2008-06-19, 10:50   Link #1213
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

Maybe, maybe not.

And, if I recall correctly, her stories indicate that she does want to go back to the Data Entity, but Koizumi isn't letting her.

Or something.
huh? When did this happen in the novels?
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Old 2008-06-19, 12:38   Link #1214
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huh? When did this happen in the novels?
Yuki's stories in Volume 8, "Editor-in-Chief★Straight Ahead!".
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Old 2008-06-19, 20:58   Link #1215
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
huh? When did this happen in the novels?
More specifically, this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki Nagato
A black coffin remained in the room. There was nothing else.

Above the coffin in the middle of the dark club room, sat one man.

"Good day."

He said to me. He was smiling.

Good day.

As I kept standing there, a white cloth alighted from behind the man. In the middle of the darkness, the cloth was enveloped by a pale light.

"Pardon my lateness."

The white cloth said. Or rather, the person who was wearing the big, white piece of cloth. Through holes cut out where the eyes would be, black pupils were looking at me.

It seemed like the one inside was a girl. I could tell from her voice.

The man laughed in a low voice.

"The recital has not yet started."

The man did not move from above the coffin.

"There is time, still."

The recital.

I was remembering something. What was I going to present here? Quickly, now. But I could not remember.

"There is time."

The man said. He was smiling at me. The apparition of the white girl danced around happily.

"We will wait. Until you remember."

The girl said. I gazed at the black coffin.

There was only one thing; I remembered why I was here.

My place was within the coffin.

I had come from there, and I had come back here so I could return. But the man was sitting on the coffin. As long as he doesn't leave, I cannot go in.

However, there was nothing in me to present. I wasn't qualified to join the recital.

The man started singing in a low voice. Synchronizing with the white cloth's dance.

As long as he doesn't leave, I cannot go in.
What bothers me is that the description of the man evokes Koizumi, yet Nagato has had almost no contact with him...

As to your other post, all I can really respond with other than "you're right" is the fact that, since Asakura isn't entirely destroyed, she could be revived. (As Yuki actually did.)

In the official gag 4koma "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi-chan", serialized in The Sneaker, Asakura DOES revive... as a tiny chibi. Nagato decides that she would make a good pet, actually.

Goddamn, that manga needs a translation...
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Old 2008-06-19, 21:15   Link #1216
Ithekro
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Are you sure it is Koizumi? While it reads like it could be him and Mikuru, could it be Haruhi and Kyon instead? Kyon is the random factor. No Kyon, no random events. Haruhi is tempered (if alone). Nothing to spark her ups and downs. She would be a constant, and thus the observers could come and go without being chained to any one place. If the thought is that she doesn't want to go back (home) to the coffin, but A) doesn't really want to, or B) is kept from going by the man...than Kyon is what is keeping her out of the coffin.

If it is Koizumi, than it is the balancing act between the interesting parties that keeps her present.

I do wonder if the translation is correct into taking into account any symbolism or word play that may be very, very cultural specific.
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Old 2008-06-19, 21:18   Link #1217
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Are you sure it is Koizumi? While it reads like it could be him and Mikuru, could it be Haruhi and Kyon instead? Kyon is the random factor. No Kyon, no random events. Haruhi is tempered (if alone). Nothing to spark her ups and downs. She would be a constant, and thus the observers could come and go without being chained to any one place. If the thought is that she doesn't want to go back (home) to the coffin, but A) doesn't really want to, or B) is kept from going by the man...than Kyon is what is keeping her out of the coffin.

If it is Koizumi, than it is the balancing act between the interesting parties that keeps her present.

I do wonder if the translation is correct into taking into account any symbolism or word play that may be very, very cultural specific.
Even then, would you ever describe Kyon as the "smiling man"?
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Old 2008-06-19, 21:21   Link #1218
Ithekro
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I would think he smiles at Yuki from time to time. Or at least Yuki would want him to smile at her. It is just most of the time we see him he is annoyed by something related to Haruhi.
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Old 2008-06-19, 21:23   Link #1219
Kaisos Erranon
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I would think he smiles at Yuki from time to time. Or at least Yuki would want him to smile at her. It is just most of the time we see him he is annoyed by something related to Haruhi.
But is that how one would normally describe him? He's not known for smiling, or much expression at all besides exasperation and boredom.

It would make more SENSE if it was Kyon, but I don't see even Yuki describing him that way.

But that's just me.
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Old 2008-06-19, 21:31   Link #1220
Ithekro
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Normally, no. However part of writing is hiding your source material. What better way to show Kyon without a clear hint of his normally bored face?
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