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Old 2008-06-23, 07:59   Link #1281
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
How exactly does the Novikov theory "prevent" an event from occurring in the past? That's another thing I've always found weird about time travel dealing with paradoxes, is how exactly the universe prevents a paradox from taking place?

There are things that a time traveler could do to prevent the titanic form sinking, or at least change the history of that episode. He could transport of a hundred of his friends all dressed out in futuristic gear on board the titanic, walk up to the captain while exposing himself to the entire crew, and have all his friends sing a musical number about the fate of the Titanic, and when it will happen.

When someone tries to do this, does the universe manifest in the form of Yotsuba, and kick them all in the nades before they can depart to the past?
In "Back to the Future" Time Travel when he returned to his time the Titanic would not have sunk and the Time line would have changed. In "DBZ" Time Travel a new Time Line would be created where the Titanic did not sink, but when he returned to his time nothing would have changed. And, according to Nostradamus, there are many possible futures. His prophesies were just the most likely.
And, for another thing, has the author stated what version of Time travel he is using. I don't think we can go by what Mikuru said since there is evidence that the Time Travelers have affected the Time Line. It is obvious that they can change things, at least through a third party. Otherwise there would be no point in having Kyon do things to restore the Time Line.
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Last edited by PastPrime; 2008-06-23 at 08:53.
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Old 2008-06-23, 13:38   Link #1282
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by cicero View Post
(shameless credit grab) I wrote the haruhi=free will theory on the baka-tsuki forums. Was I the first one to do so? Because if I was, I can feel good about being original...
Yes, that was you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
How exactly does the Novikov theory "prevent" an event from occurring in the past? That's another thing I've always found weird about time travel dealing with paradoxes, is how exactly the universe prevents a paradox from taking place?

There are things that a time traveler could do to prevent the titanic form sinking, or at least change the history of that episode. He could transport of a hundred of his friends all dressed out in futuristic gear on board the titanic, walk up to the captain while exposing himself to the entire crew, and have all his friends sing a musical number about the fate of the Titanic, and when it will happen.

When someone tries to do this, does the universe manifest in the form of Yotsuba, and kick them all in the nades before they can depart to the past?
Maybe it does. In any case, the time traveler would find themselves, through a combination of circumstance, either unable to stop the Titanic's sinking, or be the cause of the Titanic's sinking.

The latter is more likely, in my books.

How this occurs isn't explained by the principle, nor does it need to. For the purposes of fiction, we only need to know that "A wizard did it."

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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
In "Back to the Future" Time Travel when he returned to his time the Titanic would not have sunk and the Time line would have changed. In "DBZ" Time Travel a new Time Line would be created where the Titanic did not sink, but when he returned to his time nothing would have changed. And, according to Nostradamus, there are many possible futures. His prophesies were just the most likely.
And, for another thing, has the author stated what version of Time travel he is using. I don't think we can go by what Mikuru said since there is evidence that the Time Travelers have affected the Time Line. It is obvious that they can change things, at least through a third party. Otherwise there would be no point in having Kyon do things to restore the Time Line.
What Mikuru says is clearly wrong anyway...

The Haruhi series probably uses the version that avoids the grandfather paradox, i.e. self-consistency.

Restoring the timeline is not the same thing as changing the timeline.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:21   Link #1283
Ithekro
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To restore a timeline it must have been changed for it to be restored...right?
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:23   Link #1284
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
To restore a timeline it must have been changed for it to be restored...right?
And what changed the timeline was not the time travelers, but Yuki using Haruhi's powers... which we know can break self-consistency.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:27   Link #1285
OceanBlue
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New to this stuff, but...

The Haruhi books, in my opinion, tend to do more restoring than changing. If the timeline was changed, then there was something that caused that change; a basic principle of cause and effect. If the cause is not there, there wouldn't be anything to cause the effect.

Also, they technically don't change the timeline, because most of what we see as 'changes' are actually events that have already happened in Kyon's timeline to the future Asahina. So even if Kyon 'changes' the timeline, he doesn't really change anything in the timeline because he was supposed to have changed the timeline in the first place.

I need to read more about this though.

Edit: Okay, read a little bit more about what everyone was talking about. I'd have to agree with the, "The three days never happened except in Kyon's memory idea." [Unless we want to discuss about alternate universes, because in that case it does exist.] My reason for agreeing with that is: Because she had never created the alternate reality, the alternate reality never happened. Kyon cut off the source, which cuts off the result.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:31   Link #1286
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
Also, they technically don't change the timeline, because most of what we see as 'changes' are actually events that have already happened in Kyon's timeline to the future Asahina. So even if Kyon 'changes' the timeline, he doesn't really change anything in the timeline because he was supposed to have changed the timeline in the first place.
Exactly. That's exactly it.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:39   Link #1287
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Maybe it does. In any case, the time traveler would find themselves, through a combination of circumstance, either unable to stop the Titanic's sinking, or be the cause of the Titanic's sinking.

The latter is more likely, in my books.

How this occurs isn't explained by the principle, nor does it need to. For the purposes of fiction, we only need to know that "A wizard did it."
Except you don't even have to be trying to keep the titanic from sinking. You could just try to be seen by somebody, and be quite obviously not a normal person.

Lets use a better example. According to this theory of time travel, I am physically unable to take 25 of my friends in chicken suits, walk to the current day Dealey plaza on the street where JFK was assassinated, and then travel back to 30 seconds before the assassination. We don't even need to try to stop the assassination, just show up.

There is no rational explanation as to how 25 men in chicken suits appearing in the middle of the road could lead to the JFK assassination happening as it historically did. Their mere presence will create a paradox.

The Universe has to do some very overt things to prevent my 25 chicken suited friends from doing this. Like breaking my time machine every time I try to do this.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:42   Link #1288
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I can see this happening if there is a 4chan in the future that has a time machine. They'd do it for the lulz.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:43   Link #1289
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Except you don't even have to be trying to keep the titanic from sinking. You could just try to be seen by somebody, and be quite obviously not a normal person.

Lets use a better example. According to this theory of time travel, I am physically unable to take 25 of my friends in chicken suits, walk to the current day Dealey plaza on the street where JFK was assassinated, and then travel back to 30 seconds before the assassination. We don't even need to try to stop the assassination, just show up.

There is no rational explanation as to how 25 men in chicken suits appearing in the middle of the road could lead to the JFK assassination happening as it historically did. Their mere presence will create a paradox.

The Universe has to do some very overt things to prevent my 25 chicken suited friends from doing this. Like breaking my time machine every time I try to do this.
Which is exactly what would happen. Either that or you'd all be killed before you could interfere.

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I can see this happening if there is a 4chan in the future that has a time machine. They'd do it for the lulz.
Hopefully that never happens.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:46   Link #1290
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Or never happened.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:49   Link #1291
OceanBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Except you don't even have to be trying to keep the titanic from sinking. You could just try to be seen by somebody, and be quite obviously not a normal person.

Lets use a better example. According to this theory of time travel, I am physically unable to take 25 of my friends in chicken suits, walk to the current day Dealey plaza on the street where JFK was assassinated, and then travel back to 30 seconds before the assassination. We don't even need to try to stop the assassination, just show up.

There is no rational explanation as to how 25 men in chicken suits appearing in the middle of the road could lead to the JFK assassination happening as it historically did. Their mere presence will create a paradox.

The Universe has to do some very overt things to prevent my 25 chicken suited friends from doing this. Like breaking my time machine every time I try to do this.
I laughed at the second-before-final sentence, to be honest.

You would be unable to walk there, correct? Something would prevent you from walking there, according to that theory.

If you were to appear just there, there might be a problem though.
It depends on how long you stay there. You might exist as a dead conspiracy theory, but if they get no proof of you being there, it's possible that the events after could be twisted. It doesn't have to be that you would be the cause, but that you might not be mentioned.

For example, you might have stopped the car, which would have led to the assassination. After which, by one way or another, you would be sent back to your present time, which would lead to the absence of proof of your existence, which would lead your existence to become a theory. There's no way people will believe that 25 chicken-suited people just appeared out of nowhere.

I'm not sure, to be honest. I personally like the alternate universes theory better.
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Old 2008-06-23, 14:57   Link #1292
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Which is exactly what would happen. Either that or you'd all be killed before you could interfere.
This is why I fundamentally can't look at time travel stories with a straight face. They're just to absurd. The universe itself intentionally manipulating probability to kill and sabotage in the name of destroying probability is to ridiculous to be taken seriously.

The Universe might as well send Major Zero as their avatar to personally kill you.
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:01   Link #1293
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
This is why I fundamentally can't look at time travel stories with a straight face. They're just to absurd. The universe itself intentionally manipulating probability to kill and sabotage in the name of destroying probability is to ridiculous to be taken seriously.

The Universe might as well send Major Zero as their avatar to personally kill you.
It's the only theory that makes any amount of logical sense, though. Grandfather paradoxes should not exist, and the Novikov principle really is the only way to stop them.

Of course, in real life, time travel can't occur at all.
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:05   Link #1294
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
I laughed at the second-before-final sentence, to be honest.

You would be unable to walk there, correct? Something would prevent you from walking there, according to that theory.

If you were to appear just there, there might be a problem though.
It depends on how long you stay there. You might exist as a dead conspiracy theory, but if they get no proof of you being there, it's possible that the events after could be twisted. It doesn't have to be that you would be the cause, but that you might not be mentioned.

For example, you might have stopped the car, which would have led to the assassination. After which, by one way or another, you would be sent back to your present time, which would lead to the absence of proof of your existence, which would lead your existence to become a theory. There's no way people will believe that 25 chicken-suited people just appeared out of nowhere.

I'm not sure, to be honest. I personally like the alternate universes theory better.
Except that the crowd of hundreds (if not sevaral thousand), along with dozens of Police and secret service did in fact see a cadre of men in Chicken suits appear out of nowhere. Zapruder is likely to veer his camera away from JFK, and capture the chicken men on film. There will be visual evidence of their existence, along with JFK getting shot. Denial will be impossible.

The only way a time paradox could be prevented in these circumstances, would be for the "powers that be", to sabotage the mission before they depart. This could range from having the lab explode, all the men simultaneous suffer fatal strokes/heart attacks, or to have the equipment malfunction every time it's used, sending them to a specific time where 25 guys in chicken suits appearing wouldn't change history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's the only theory that makes any amount of logical sense, though. Grandfather paradoxes should not exist, and the Novikov principle really is the only way to stop them.

Of course, in real life, time travel can't occur at all.
It's still a rather absurd scenario even with Novikov. Time travel just being outright impossible is far more likely.

The only time I can be convinced that this kind of time travel is possible, would be with direct interference of higher being not bound by conventional logic and space time constraints.
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:15   Link #1295
OceanBlue
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It's true that people will see it, but that doesn't mean that Zapruder [I feel pretty awkward talking about someone when I don't know who that person is.] will veer his camera away. I'm explaining what might happen to your circumstance if the Novikov principle applies, so it has to happen in a circumstance similar to that. Even if they did see it, that doesn't mean that it will validate the existence, and over time the "chicken men" might fade away.
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:20   Link #1296
Kaisos Erranon
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The only time I can be convinced that this kind of time travel is possible, would be with direct interference of higher being not bound by conventional logic and space time constraints.
Maybe there is. Who knows?
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:26   Link #1297
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
It's true that people will see it, but that doesn't mean that Zapruder [I feel pretty awkward talking about someone when I don't know who that person is.] will veer his camera away. I'm explaining what might happen to your circumstance if the Novikov principle applies, so it has to happen in a circumstance similar to that. Even if they did see it, that doesn't mean that it will validate the existence, and over time the "chicken men" might fade away.
Zapruder is the camera man behind the Zapruder film, the most complete visual piece of the JFK assassination.

One learns these sorts of things when your American history teacher is a conspiracy nut.
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
It's true that people will see it, but that doesn't mean that Zapruder [I feel pretty awkward talking about someone when I don't know who that person is.] will veer his camera away. I'm explaining what might happen to your circumstance if the Novikov principle applies, so it has to happen in a circumstance similar to that. Even if they did see it, that doesn't mean that it will validate the existence, and over time the "chicken men" might fade away.
Unless directed, events will follow the path of least resistance. A rock will fall unless held up. All that is important to the universe/Higher powers/God, is that a paradox isn't created. This could involve manipulating the entire crowd, the secret service, the police, and all the cameramen to ignore everything the chicken men in the road. Or it could involve the powers that be exploding all the chicken men before they disembark. This is easier. This is what is most likely going to happen.

Plus, it doesn't account for the fact that my friends in chicken suits, could be a platoon of Green Beret's in bullet proof chicken suits armed with Machine guns! A crowd can plausibly ignore chicken men, but it can't ignore bullets.
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:32   Link #1298
Ithekro
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Of course there could be some sort of conversion of matter block on time travel. Matter from one time is coverted to energy and moved back in time, it displaces an equal mount of energy from the target time period to the future. The question is if the time traveler can be placing into the displaced energy as matter, or if they can only be placed there as energy. Possibly in a non-corporal form and thus not be able to effect any changes in the timeline because they cannot interact with it at all. Only observe from any angle they choose. However if they are there as energy, then might be able to interact or be converted to another form of energy by local means...but that would probably kill the time traveller...but could cause an interaction in time (overloading a powerplant or sparking an spontanious human combustion maybe (a second human sized energy source inside an existing body...doubles the temperature...boom?)
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Old 2008-06-23, 15:36   Link #1299
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
It's true that people will see it, but that doesn't mean that Zapruder [I feel pretty awkward talking about someone when I don't know who that person is.] will veer his camera away. I'm explaining what might happen to your circumstance if the Novikov principle applies, so it has to happen in a circumstance similar to that. Even if they did see it, that doesn't mean that it will validate the existence, and over time the "chicken men" might fade away.
Zapruder is the camera man behind the Zapruder film, the most complete visual piece of the JFK assassination. It shows JFK as he is shot.

One learns these sorts of things when your American history teacher is a conspiracy nut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
It's true that people will see it, but that doesn't mean that Zapruder [I feel pretty awkward talking about someone when I don't know who that person is.] will veer his camera away. I'm explaining what might happen to your circumstance if the Novikov principle applies, so it has to happen in a circumstance similar to that. Even if they did see it, that doesn't mean that it will validate the existence, and over time the "chicken men" might fade away.
Unless directed, events will follow the path of least resistance. All that is important to the universe/Higher powers/God, is that a paradox isn't created. This could involve manipulating the entire crowd, the secret service, the police, and all the cameramen to ignore everything they saw. Or it could involve the powers that be exploding all the chicken men before they disembark. This is easier. This is what is most likely going to happen.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:23   Link #1300
fishy_hylian
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Ah man, Time Travel.

I'm more of the camp that even if you did go back in time to change something, the odds are that you wouldn't change a thing - something would happen to prevent you from doing what you intended to go out to do.

Like, for instance, let's say you really are hell bent on going back in time to the JFK assasination dressed up in Chicken Suits. This is what you plan to do, and there is no way you are going to change your mind.

Even before you set out (in the present time) to do it - it's already happened. You were already there at the JFK assasination anyway. Whatever the circumstances were, you didn't manage to divert the camera mans attention away onto yourselves.

If you had a time machine that would allow you to go to a certain place at a certain time, and you programmed it to take you back to that time right in the middle of the road - something would have gone wrong with the device and it would have transported you somewhere else entirely from your intended place.

This is, unless, you are bringing alternate dimensions and universes into the matter, at which case you'd have left our world and gone into one where the JFK assasination was thwarted by 25 men dressed as chickens
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