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Old 2008-06-23, 16:23   Link #1941
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Anyone who expects for Suzaku to be sentenced in any "real" military for the methane-bubble event is ignoring a rather critical fact: in any "real" military, Suzaku wouldn't have been in command in the first place. He would be in the position he most often is: an ace flier, and not in tactical or strategic command. It's a non-starter to take the half and ignore the other.

Personally, I question the physics and effectiveness of the methane bubble trick, even more than I do the mudslide ambush. I'm no physics major, but I'm pretty sure that neither would have been anywhere near as devastating or effective.
In CG, he wasn't given command, he pulled rank to take command of a fleet of warships and led them to their doom. In the real world, pulling rank and getting lives wasted is also another conduct unbecoming an officer.

And yes you aren't a chemistry expert, neither am I but I do know for a fact that ocean vessels are not designed to be less dense than water, instead they are designed to displace a certain volume of water which has a mass greater than the mass of the ship itself and ship designers design ships to tolerate within a certain +/- ocean water density unit. So of Methyl hydrate causes the density of the water to become lower than its normal, then ships which are designed to displace a fixed volume of water will sink as they can't suddenly change shape and displace more volume of water to compensate for the loss in water density.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:26   Link #1942
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
1. Ahh but in the real world, bubbles CAN sink a ship. But the important thing is Suzaku is accountable for the lives wasted of his own troops. How will he answer the wives and children of those soldiers that died? Is he going to handwrite a personally written letter to each family? He failed to even injure much less kill or take prisoner one member of the OBK at that skirmish.
Yeah? Can you name me one time where a commander ever considered bubbles to capsize an entire fleet of ships? No? Yeah...

As for that bull about the families. How many people have died in this anime now? ON just the Britannian side for sake of argument? A lot more than that was killed din that battle let me tell you. If you are going to use that, then you really are looking too deeply into this and only because of personal bias against Suzaku.

But hey, if you want to play that way, Lelouch is a bigger scum bag for getting all those defenseless Japanese killed because he couldn't shut his big fat mouth when he accidentally Geassed Euphie, THEN manipulates it so that she did it on her own, and then after doing that, practically abandons them to rescue his sister.

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2. Cornelia's failure to predict a man made landslide is the same is Lelouch's failure to expect any other geass being to kidnap Nunally. It's not the same as Suzaku's failure to realize any potential threats to the troops under his command. Compared to Cornelia, Schneizel and Lelouch, Suzaku is a retard when it comes to strategies and tactics.
Nope. She should have factored in a landslide. Whether it is natural or man-made. Because there was probably at least a .05% chance of one happening anyway so you never know.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:27   Link #1943
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
2. Cornelia's failure to predict a man made landslide is the same is Lelouch's failure to expect any other geass being to kidnap Nunally. It's not the same as Suzaku's failure to realize any potential threats to the troops under his command. Compared to Cornelia, Schneizel and Lelouch, Suzaku is a retard when it comes to strategies and tactics.
Er, no. It's not. You're blaming Suzaku for not taking into account a potential man-made terrain terrain danger, but absolving Cornelia of the same. That's a rather blatant double standard, especially since you don't even bother to explain how it's supposedly different. Just because you say it isn't so, doesn't make it not so.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:29   Link #1944
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
In CG, he wasn't given command, he pulled rank to take command of a fleet of warships and led them to their doom. In the real world, pulling rank and getting lives wasted is also another conduct unbecoming an officer.
Got proof that he pulled rank to seize command?

And you're deliberately ignoring several points: that the trap wouldn't have worked in reality as shown in the anime anyway, and that he wouldn't have been in a position to take command anyway. Fighter pilots don't out rank captains or admirals, no matter where you go.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:33   Link #1945
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Er, no. It's not. You're blaming Suzaku for not taking into account a potential man-made terrain terrain danger, but absolving Cornelia of the same. That's a rather blatant double standard, especially since you don't even bother to explain how it's supposedly different. Just because you say it isn't so, doesn't make it not so.
It's different because right under their noses there is a methyl hydrate resource mining facility and any good naval officer should be aware of the dangers if large deposits of it were disturbed. and for profitability you only mine where large deposits of the resource exists.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:34   Link #1946
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Got proof that he pulled rank to seize command?

And you're deliberately ignoring several points: that the trap wouldn't have worked in reality as shown in the anime anyway, and that he wouldn't have been in a position to take command anyway. Fighter pilots don't out rank captains or admirals, no matter where you go.
He got command because he has experience fighting the OBK and because he is a Knight of Round which is probably one of the highest ranks in the britannian military chain of command.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:35   Link #1947
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
It's different because right under their noses there is a methyl hydrate resource mining facility and any good naval officer should be aware of the dangers if large deposits of it were disturbed. and for profitability you only mine where large deposits of the resource exists.
I don't think any naval commander would ever consider bubbles to capsize his fleet. I don't care how smart or talented they are. It just doesn't fit into the picture.

Also, I consider that since Cornelia was fighting on a mountain, that a landslide would, you know, be in the plans too if you think methane bubble attacks should be.

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He got command because he has experience fighting the OBK and because he is a Knight of Round which is probably one of the highest ranks in the britannian military chain of command.
That doesn't mean he pulled rank. Which you haven't proved.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:45   Link #1948
Rising Dragon
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One would think that they'd be careful of where they fight the Black Knights at, though. Zero does seem to like using the lay of the land to his advantage. Also, (granted could not be accurate) according to Wikipedia, the Knights of Rounds operate outside of usual military jurisdiction, sort of like FAITH in GSD. That COULD explain why he was there, but more likely they had him there because of his experience in fighting against the Black Knights.
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Old 2008-06-23, 16:46   Link #1949
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
I don't think any naval commander would ever consider bubbles to capsize his fleet. I don't care how smart or talented they are. It just doesn't fit into the picture.

Also, I consider that since Cornelia was fighting on a mountain, that a landslide would, you know, be in the plans too if you think methane bubble attacks should be.
Methane bubbles are by and large a non-issue for a naval fleet.

On land, though, water tables such as the mountain terrain would likely be included in various military maps, because the terrain stability can effect the types of equipment which can be used.

But, and here's a kicker for you, there are freak incidents that you do not go out of your way to prepare for. The Yellowstone Volcano could blow up at any time, but no one goes around acting if will do so today. There could be an earthquake almost anywhere at any time. Lighting could strike Airforce One. A meteorite could sneak past observatories and turn Baghdad into a crater. But no one goes around planning around such freak occurances,
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Old 2008-06-23, 18:04   Link #1950
orangejuicetang
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Also, because I'm sure every naval commander in Code Geass and the real world routinely checks for methane bubbles. And large rogue patches of seaweed. And dormant volacanos that might be active again. And mutated killer dolphins. Since we know of course that no one would fall for that methane bubble trick except Suzuku.
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Old 2008-06-23, 18:14   Link #1951
Dean_the_Young
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Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in that post?

Fool! Only an idiot would ignore the threat that a dormant volcano could have on seaweed groups in order to trigger the attack of the mutant dolphin assassins!
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Old 2008-06-23, 18:26   Link #1952
tenken627
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It is true that underwater methane can capsize a warship in real life, and many scientists speculate that this may be the reason behind stories like the Bermuda Triangle (which was probably the inspiration for the writers).

But, to capsize a huge war fleet of that size would mean that there needs to be TREMENDOUS amounts of methane released, much more so than what is currently leaked underwater in our world today, including the ones under the Mid-Atlantic ridge.

But, then again, real life technology doesn't have underwater methane processing plants.

Who knows, it's just a fictional story, with heavy emphasis on the fiction.

Let it rest.
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Old 2008-06-23, 19:04   Link #1953
m1thril
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Whether methane bubbles would wipe out a fleet or not in the real world doesn't matter, it's the concept that Suzaku failed to protect the forces under his command that counts. Also all ships depend on the stability of their buoyancy, especially large ships like those, to prevent themselves from capsizing. and here is some info about methyl hydrade:
http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00116/meth.htm
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explor...fire/fire.html
http://www.offnews.info/verArticulo....ntenidoID=7571
so I have to say yes, bubbles can sink ships. And yes I just realized that Lelouch wasn't trying to blow up those methane tanks or whatever those tanks held though it is most likely that methane was it, Lelouch was trying to disturb the ocean floor deposits of methyl hydrates and from the articles about methyl hydrates, it seems the britannians were trying to utilize the deposits of this natural resource and in the 'mining' process use methane as an inhibitor.

And you can't expect the OBK submarine to be aware of the ocean floor completely, especially inside Britannian territory and a britannian commander who fails to even consider the remotest possibility...("When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) and Suzaku didn't even try to consider any strategic or tactical advantages those tanks could possibly provide.
dont post useless links...none of them have scientific merit except for maybe the 2nd one, but it does not cover the ability of bubbles sinking ships...also it is still a theory and bubbles sinking ships may or may not be true though all evidence points to the affirmative. if you want to post links post things such as http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3226787/ where their arguments are backed by published scientific research. NOTE that it says that if a ship is directly above the bubbles, the ship will not sink. Instead the ship must be a certain distance from where the bubbles come from.
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Old 2008-06-23, 19:09   Link #1954
NoLongerSane
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Speaking of Lulu's tactic that brought down the fleet that was with Suzaku at the time, was not the same trick done in one of Zoids Guardian Force episodes. Except it was to get the DeathStinger of the back of the Ultrasaurus.
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Old 2008-06-23, 19:10   Link #1955
Traece
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Personally I never thought less of the Methane Bubbles tactic. A hollow box made of steel could still fly if you filled it up with helium, it would just have to be a really, really big cube of steel with a lot of area on the inside.

If you had enough methane bubble up to the surface of the ocean over a large area at one time it could cause difficulties for ships. Would it happen in real life? Probably not. But in Code Geass they have enormous deposits of Methane that, if disturbed, could disrupt a fleet of ships. That's how I look at it anyhow.
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Old 2008-06-23, 19:16   Link #1956
m1thril
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Personally I never thought less of the Methane Bubbles tactic. A hollow box made of steel could still fly if you filled it up with helium, it would just have to be a really, really big cube of steel with a lot of area on the inside.

If you had enough methane bubble up to the surface of the ocean over a large area at one time it could cause difficulties for ships. Would it happen in real life? Probably not. But in Code Geass they have enormous deposits of Methane that, if disturbed, could disrupt a fleet of ships. That's how I look at it anyhow.
no one's denying that LL's methan gas thingy was brilliant...it's just that people are saying you can't hold suzaku accountable for having the methane gas erupt like a bajillion miles across the ocean surface since that has never really happened before.
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Old 2008-06-23, 20:03   Link #1957
orangejuicetang
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Exactly. The part I'm trying to argue is that Suzuku is not an idiot for not anticipating a methane gas eruption. How many people seriously worry about methane gas eruption while in the ocean? How many people in Suzuku's positions, or in any naval command posistion would anticipate something like that?
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Old 2008-06-23, 20:06   Link #1958
Traece
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I don't see how anyone could call Suzaku in to question. You can't predict a volcano erupting, I don't think you can predict that your naval fleet will be taken out by a swarm of methane bubbles. Anyone who says otherwise, dunno what to say.

There are a few people who have denied the possibility of Lulu's attack being even plausible.
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Old 2008-06-23, 20:50   Link #1959
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
I don't see how anyone could call Suzaku in to question. You can't predict a volcano erupting, I don't think you can predict that your naval fleet will be taken out by a swarm of methane bubbles. Anyone who says otherwise, dunno what to say.

There are a few people who have denied the possibility of Lulu's attack being even plausible.
I can't even predict weather in my area. Who can blame Suzaku, it's not likely he could have predicted that a methane plant will blow up or if a lightning strike hits the Avalon or anything.
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Old 2008-06-23, 21:14   Link #1960
tenken627
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Lelouch has a history of using unorthodox battle methods by using the terrain in that manner, and the Britannians should be looking out for that type of strategy. To beat your enemies, you have to know what your enemy is capable of.

But, Suzaku shouldn't be reprimanded for not preparing for such an unnatural event.

If anything, people should be questioning how Lelouch pulled a map of the sea out of his ass and knew about some random underwater methane processing factory/storage that just happened to be directly under the Britannian fleet.
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