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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 32 29.36%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 31.19%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 24 22.02%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 11.01%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 4.59%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.92%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.92%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-06-24, 00:18   Link #241
Tak
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
while Gundam 00 was very much into high politics and the like.
I just cannot accept how 00 portrayed their brand of 'politics', as if history taught the producers absolutely nothing about how you cannot stop a war with another war!

Never mind that the political system in 00 will never work, especially with the Chinese-centered political entity is concerned. Regardless of that, the CB had the nerve to piss off every known power in the world, with nothing more than 4 (later 7) mobile machines only at the end have the rest of the world gang up against them.

Does it take a rocket-scientist to even predict that? Worse, the CB was acting all surprised about it. Yet, as an audience, I was dumbfounded and speechless. I mean, duh!

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-06-24 at 00:36.
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Old 2008-06-24, 00:31   Link #242
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
We've been given a lot of details about the Vajra in the show. It was in Episode 5, when it was discovered that the Vajra wasn't too different, physically, from the newest Valkyries and that they have some sort of a biological programming.
We learned what a Victor could do, but absolutely nothing about their race. It'd be like showcasing a Harley Davidson Motorcycle to an alien race without even showing a picture of the people who built it, let alone those who typically ride it.

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Character opinions were also plenty in that episode. Except, when they were finally trying to get down and perform an autopsy, the friggin bug just revived itself.
I was under the impression they'd already performed their research, since they knew it had no apparent brain.

Quote:
Sure they have. First episode, bitch slapped the Frontier Colonial Fleet for fun, went as deep into the city and causing havoc until Ozma intervened. We don't know what they want, yet, but I guess it has something to do with Ranka (obviously).
None of that had anything to do with their supposed ability to fold in where ever they want. And when I say bitch slap, I mean the whole friggin fleet blown away. Just get it over with.

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The Zents were obsessed with studying how the Miclones acquired reactive technology. Wiping Earth out wasn't the Zent's final straw, they could have done that long, long time ago. They didn't, because their mission initially started as a recon operation, not annihilation.
I'm ten episodes in and while they were surprised by the "long lost reactive weapons", they only seem interested in Macross and only for shits and giggles. I have no idea how the show could become genocide for Earth from what I've seen so far.

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And you can't expect everyone to talk about Vajra as if it was that overwhelming of a threat. Yes, it is indeed a serious threat, but hey, life goes on. People have other things to worry about than creatures they have little idea of. Although I suspect that is about to change.
Hopefully. Maybe the 33rd Marine Squadron will be made a nice, expendable example of.

Quote:
Because they are not at the stage where total annihilation is necessary. Judging by their performance in Episode 1 however, if the Vajra weren't there to dick around, I doubt the Frontier Fleet would stay afloat for too long. Again, the Zents did not initially send an entire fleet to blast Earth out of orbit. It started slowly, and was not until 2/3 into the show do we begin to see fleet-sized attack groups showing up. Even then, the assault was partial and never complete. For example, Quamzin was told to retreat many times even when victory was assured had the Zent ships simply pushed on.
And judging from their episode seven performance, the Frontier Fleet has absolutely nothing to worry about.

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What prove do you want?

You do realize only one ship from the Galaxy Colonial Fleet survived right?
A ship that, oddly, was ordered to retreat before the battle had even begun, and presumably had been set upon somewhere along the five day journey between Galaxy and Frontier. Don't you think it's a little odd no trace of Galaxy has been found, even though they should be able to figure out at least probable locations of where it or it's remains should be?

If Galaxy Folded away, it wouldn't have gotten very far due to the distortion. If it was destroyed it, there would have been a debris field. If it survived, they should have reestablished communications. That leaves two possiblities; Galaxy was captured or Galaxy survived, but doesn't want to be found for whatever reason.

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Luca's role was NEVER intended to be one of front line combat. He is a recon, a scout, there to gather information and relay it back to Macross Quarter and the squadron. His drones were destroyed when the Vajra battleship showed up and took them out by surprise. He got captured because wanted to find out more about the Vajra (again, going against your 'we don't know about Vajra' statement, they are clearly trying, just not very successful) despite Ozma ordering him to return to formation.
One drone was destroyed. The other two unaccounted for. And it doesn't change the fact the guy went without back-up from any of the human pilots either. So much for "squadrons".

Quote:
Moreover, it was all squadron combat in Episode 4, and especially Episode 7. The way Ozma ordered Alto to stay closely behind to securing the Konigs Monster's deployment. The way where instructions were relayed is rather specific. I don't know how much you want from this. Fact is, in Gundam, pilots rarely, if at all, coordinate. They just show up, and pick their fights. A friendly assisting the 'ace' in Gundam is almost a bonus.
You mean the Squadron based combat where Alto had the Pixies lining up to take him on, with Luca and Michael only shown to be running away when the Victor appeared? Three Pixies, Nene gets "shot down" but we never see her or the other Pixie again, even when they supposedly had weaponry to fight with.

Not that I minded it at the time, because it was cool when Alto blew the Victor away with the ancient rifle of a long dead and mummified Zentradi Warrior.

Seven was even worse. Rather than work together, they seemed to take turns raping the Vajra, and when the shit supposedly hit the fan when the Vajra Battlecruiser showed up, it turned out to be fucking party confetti when Sheryl started her final number and Quarter transformed and rolled out for the climax.

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As for a proper portrayal of military dogfights, we've seen plenty of those in Episode 1, where the VF-171s went in, and tore each other to pieces. Then again, you realized Frontier was another ballpark. Its not focusing on the military, but rather a civilian military service. The focus is on Alto and his teammates, not the broader perspective of the military as it is in SDF Macross. Even so, there are serious squadron coordination involved, why you choose to dismiss them is beyond me.

- Tak
The actual military has been portrayed as useless and incompetent time and time again. It's bullshit to build up the "elite" status of the SMS, when they're really all just a bunch of jerks that roll over the enemy first chance they get at a serious battle. I don't know what you're watching, but all I've seen from Frontier is eye-candy, chase-scenes, and arm wrestling. Nothing about battleplans or fighter pilots fighting like fighter pilots.
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Old 2008-06-24, 00:37   Link #243
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
I also like how the series is more than just about dogfighting, which would really get old, after all.



Wes, I see your point about the large unit actions, BUT there is a big difference in the way the military orgs are portrayed. CB looks NOTHING like a military organization (and I know something about military orgs)--Sumeragi is way too weepy to be a CO, and the Meisters are way too fractious and undisciplined. Don't get me wrong, I actually found Gundam 00 entertaining, but seeing trained professionals acting angsty and emo was rather weird at times. Frontier might also focus on individualistic dogfights, but SMS looks a heck of a lot more like a recognizable military organization (complete with a training cycle, hazing Alto when he was the FNG, and rivalry among JOs) than Celestial Being. In Gundam 00, Graham and Sergei look like plausible combat leaders, but they're really just side characters after all.

Anyhow, I think both series want to focus on the characters as much as the mechas involved. But in very different ways; Macross I think has a more personal focus (you see this especially in the love triangle), while Gundam 00 was very much into high politics and the like. Of course, the differences shouldn't be overstated--there is a larger political narrative in Frontier, and Gundam 00 also looks at its characters' personal dynamics, but there is definitely a different set of weights given to these issues in each series.
I wasn't really being specific about which Gundam. Only by comparison between the original SDF to Frontier do I see the latter having more in common with how Gundam generally conducts battles; one on one with the occasional hat tip from a side character. Even if there's more emphasis on actual dogfighting and choregraphy in Frontier compared to the homoerotic poses Gundams tend to use when fighting, it doesn't change the fact there's next to no coordination between pilots, no overarching battleplan or even attention from bridge personel (SDF's bridge personsel were really involved with what was going on, Quarter's on the other hand...).
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Old 2008-06-24, 01:51   Link #244
Tak
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
it doesn't change the fact there's next to no coordination between pilots, no overarching battleplan or even attention from bridge personel (SDF's bridge personsel were really involved with what was going on, Quarter's on the other hand...).
How many times do we have to prove to you that there had been conversation between pilots and that there had in fact, been coordination as well? Episode 7 was also the first time we seen the Quarter out to fight. Certainly before then the bridge personnel was very busy coordinating movements during Alto's training, up to the point where they alerted the squadron the appearance of a lone Vajra. It is all there, why you choose to dismiss them is again, beyond me.

Now if you take this, and compare to Gundam, you will note the latter has almost no chatter between the pilots, beyond throwing out bits of philosophical statements and random death screams. I don't know how you can even compare the two and call Frontier's combat similar to that of Gundam.

Btw, the military in SDF Macross wasn't all that useful, given the show also focused on the elite status of the Skull and later, the Vermillion squadron.

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-24, 02:34   Link #245
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
How many times do we have to prove to you that there had been conversation between pilots and that there had in fact, been coordination as well? Episode 7 was also the first time we seen the Quarter out to fight. Certainly before then the bridge personnel was very busy coordinating movements during Alto's training, up to the point where they alerted the squadron the appearance of a lone Vajra. It is all there, why you choose to dismiss them is again, beyond me.
They didn't do anything up until the Vajra Folded in, and that was a simple dramatic warning two seconds ahead of it actually appearing. "Like, omg, you guys have company!" Totally worthless. And maybe you're misunderstanding me when I say "chatter". I don't mean them simply talking to one another, I mean relevant discussions about their current circumstances.

As an example, when Misa's operating the Cat Eye in the episode they get captured, they discussed who to send to engage the Battlepods lurking just outside their range, and who would remain to protect Misa (they made the stupid decision to abandon her completely, but that's another topic of discussion). They weighed their options, and took a course of action.

Frontier by comparison has ass smelling and Alto screaming at Michael to SHOOT! Simple dramatic drivel. Basically they are no longer fighter pilots, but modern Japanese Mecha pilots.

If they were actually coordinated, Luca wouldn't have rushed in without any back up, Klan wouldn't have had to wait for help from Michael and Alto when Bresra attacked her, Alto would have had support from Michael and Luca when Klan was trying to shoot him to metaphorical pieces, etc. etc.

Quote:
Now if you take this, and compare to Gundam, you will note the latter has almost no chatter between the pilots, beyond throwing out bits of philosophical statements and random death screams. I don't know how you can even compare the two and call Frontier's combat similar to that of Gundam.
I already explained what I meant with the comparison.

Quote:
Btw, the military in SDF Macross wasn't all that useful, given the show also focused on the elite status of the Skull and later, the Vermillion squadron.

- Tak
Sorry. I'm not sensing any elitism from them, even compared to other squadrons. Especially since Hikaru wasn't the only pilot decorated and promoted after Mars. They're doing a good job of portraying his squadron as just one of many, and we just so happen to see what happens with him and his squad, when the others do the same work, operate in shifts with his own, and mind their own portions of the battlefield.

Not like the bleeping SMS Skull Squadron that flies their precious and invincible (unless Alto's flying them) VF-25s.

Mercenary scum.
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Old 2008-06-24, 04:22   Link #246
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Going to have to chime in and say that much of Macross F has a crew of pilots jerking off and getting screwed through a decided lack of discipline. I'd say it's probably because there isn't an Old Maid somewhere biting the crew when they get out of line The downside of that is the rigid thinking and the inevitable fallout that occurs when said Old Maid is clearly too smart for her own good [like dismissing her escorts -probably to be a better pathfinder>_<].

I suppose that's the biggest difference here between SDF Macross and Macross F, over reaching control against a near total lack of it. Personally, both are bad and the consequences either way have been tragic. If someone challenged me in a big blue death machine during a combat OP, I'd not only be offended, I'll likely find some way to hit first before getting fragged by my own side.

Back to ep11. IMO, the focus of the show has been to look into the what manner of society would develop in the event of tremendous social change. If the zentradi in SDF-M are seen as spartan and militant [and brutally xenophobic to boot], then the society in Macross F can best be described as decadent and wasteful. The entire colony appears to exist like a sort of flying resort with the energy and effort put mainly into environmental control and entertainment. The imbalance is such that the military is effectively crippled when faced with a host of territorial space bugs and the threat of an alien virus [if any ]

Right now I'm just waiting for Kawamori to come out and preach some message against rampant commercialisation versus surviving in a decidedly hostile universe. So far he hasn't built his pulpit high enough yet
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Old 2008-06-24, 07:58   Link #247
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Haven't actually watched Macross ever since I watched DYRL eons ago...

Gundam and Macross are intended for their own universes, and they have their own unique problems and strengths. I mean, there ARE people on this board who do like both Gundam and Macross, and they seem to have no problems with it whatsoever. Trying to argue what Gundams and Macross' "silly" action sequences or whatever or the fact that they have unbelievable modes or thrust people into deeper modes of disbelief would never be resolved and only serve as fuel to more heated debates about which universe is more "realistic" or not.

Back to the discussion, granted that Alto is the protagonist of the show, it was the star of the show - Alto's personality development that is. Choosing Gallia 4 has never been an LOL SHERYL END nor does it say that if he decides to stay with Ranka, he'll never be able to achieve that dream of his. Really, sorry, not a Sheryl end if he so chooses Gallia 4, he just simply chose it for the sake to get away from parental issues, or in Mikhail's terms, "running away from his past". But he did take extra care to send Mikhail off to Ranka when he can't make it, at least he cared enough to do that thing for Ranka. If Alto was just being a total jerk that he is he wouldn't have done anything of that sort. Or that he wouldn't have had a very hard time deciding about what path he should take - fulfilling his father's wishes, attending the birthday party Ranka and his friends have put up for him, or choosing to fly in a real sky. In the end, we all know that the sky and Alto-hime = true OTP, lol.

Spoiler for LOL shipping:
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Old 2008-06-24, 08:05   Link #248
Westlo
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I mean if that were the case, then wouldn't Sheryl be called as selfish as she also handed Alto tickets to her concert as well?
You're reaching bud, trying to compare a thank you gift to a birthday present.
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Old 2008-06-24, 08:14   Link #249
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LOL what? So Ranka could mean that as both a thank you gift and Alto's birthday present. Oh wait, Ranka made those cookies too, we can't forget that. You really can't just pretend all the things that Alto did for Ranka didn't happen, cause it was in the show. If it weren't in the show, then we can start talking about how a birthday present could not also mean a thank you present.
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Old 2008-06-24, 08:48   Link #250
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AHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Its... Eidolon Sniper!!!

Brace yourselves lads! The discussions are about to get lengthy!

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-24, 08:50   Link #251
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With gems like Sheryl has her mum I'm not exactly worried.
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Old 2008-06-24, 09:01   Link #252
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So here is where you have been hiding all along Tak. I kinda missed you in the Gundam thread.

@ Wesley84

Brera just suddenly appeared out of nowhere, Alto, Mikhail, Luca and Klan DIDN'T expect him to come charging through a somewhat peaceful day of them hunting Vajra nests and collecting samples from them, that's why LOL SURPRISE.
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Old 2008-06-24, 09:04   Link #253
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Ack Enough with the Gundams and the shipping wars what got me interested is what they are going to find in Galia 4.

There must be more to it than an outpost for UN Spacy Zentradi.

Remember in their previous talk Leon got from Grace a crystal. Something she is asking for in exchange for the info.

There may be some on that planet.

Or some Protoculture ruins. Which may explain why the guy who refuses to die (Quamzin) is there.
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Old 2008-06-24, 09:07   Link #254
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
So here is where you have been hiding all along Tak. I kinda missed you in the Gundam thread.

Just 'kinda'? Are you sure you've not been crying for countless days & nights awaiting for my return?

...

...

dammit. And I thought I left an impression!

Yeah, other than that, 00's so-called 'plot' left me pretty much dumbfounded and speechless. I really don't know just what to say about it, so I left.

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-24, 09:07   Link #255
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Probably so cause Cathy and Ozma weren't too thrilled to hear that the SMS were chosen to escort Sheryl's ship to Gallia 4. And why Brera was sent after Sheryl and Alto as well. It's like Brera is there to prevent Alto from knowing something about what is really going on in there and Grace and Leon can't afford the SMS (Alto) to know about.

@ Tak

I found 00 kinda slow in the beginning but the series grew on me nonetheless. Once past the LOL WING COPYPASTA VER 2.0 of the first few eps, it got better, if only for the "villains" of the show and especially that crazy Ali. You have to love "villains" like that. And it got me buying my first MSIA after eons of not collecting mech figurines like that, so yeah, I thank 00 for that, but this should be on the Gundam thread, not here.
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Old 2008-06-24, 12:08   Link #256
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LOL mecha flamewar, and all I was asking was how the action-episode ratio of Frontier compared to older Macross series as well as other mecha series. And, yeah, Onizuka's been silent recently, otherwise this flame war might've been more interesting.

Oh well, back to your regular shipping wars.
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Old 2008-06-24, 13:40   Link #257
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@ Tak

I found 00 kinda slow in the beginning but the series grew on me nonetheless. Once past the LOL WING COPYPASTA VER 2.0 of the first few eps, it got better, if only for the "villains" of the show and especially that crazy Ali. You have to love "villains" like that. And it got me buying my first MSIA after eons of not collecting mech figurines like that, so yeah, I thank 00 for that, but this should be on the Gundam thread, not here.
I just cannot stand its naive, and completely irrational look on politics. Yeah, SEED and DESTINY made similar mistakes, but they stopped before it became far and beyond stupidity. But you are right, 00 belongs to a Gundam forum and this is not it.

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Originally Posted by CaptGloval View Post
LOL mecha flamewar, and all I was asking was how the action-episode ratio of Frontier compared to older Macross series as well as other mecha series. And, yeah, Onizuka's been silent recently, otherwise this flame war might've been more interesting.
All I have to say, be careful what you wish for

Of course, we usually settle scores over a nice lil' game such as ANOTHER CENTURY EPISODE III or SUPER ROBOT WARS. Where I have discovered that the lack of homing weapons on a Gundam may just be a VF-19's greatest advantage.

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-24, 15:06   Link #258
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ Wesley84

Brera just suddenly appeared out of nowhere, Alto, Mikhail, Luca and Klan DIDN'T expect him to come charging through a somewhat peaceful day of them hunting Vajra nests and collecting samples from them, that's why LOL SURPRISE.
If it were SDF, Hikaru would have had Max and Kakizaki flying alongside him. Hell, where were Klan's Pixies? They're a unit right? If Alto and Michael are flying together, why didn't she have any of her mates along with them?

Oh that's right...to show off Michael's sniping skills.

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Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
Going to have to chime in and say that much of Macross F has a crew of pilots jerking off and getting screwed through a decided lack of discipline. I'd say it's probably because there isn't an Old Maid somewhere biting the crew when they get out of line The downside of that is the rigid thinking and the inevitable fallout that occurs when said Old Maid is clearly too smart for her own good [like dismissing her escorts -probably to be a better pathfinder>_<].

I suppose that's the biggest difference here between SDF Macross and Macross F, over reaching control against a near total lack of it. Personally, both are bad and the consequences either way have been tragic. If someone challenged me in a big blue death machine during a combat OP, I'd not only be offended, I'll likely find some way to hit first before getting fragged by my own side.
Misa doesn't seem that bad. If anything, her only problem is she let's certain things get to her and effect her judgement for no good reason. Those being Hikaru and her dead childhood crush. Much better than Kathy who only whines, rightly or wrongly, when Quarter's Bridgecrew decide they want to "jerkoff" alongside the pilots.
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Old 2008-06-24, 17:10   Link #259
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Did the animators screw up with the consistency of the VF-27, because I noticed in this episode that it had a fold booster on it but in ep 7 it was shown to be able to travel into fold space without a booster.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:04   Link #260
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Did the animators screw up with the consistency of the VF-27, because I noticed in this episode that it had a fold booster on it but in ep 7 it was shown to be able to travel into fold space without a booster.
Well, it could be that the VF-27 was just hitchhiking on the Frontier task force's fold wake the last time, but I doubt it - Someone else would surely have notice a trio of unidentified foo fighters tagging alongside.

Alternately, the fold engine was damaged when Alto went to town on Brera's VF-27, LAI doesn't have the technological capability to jury rig repairs on it, and the booster is a work around.
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