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Old 2008-06-24, 17:56   Link #2101
m1thril
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Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
i said if he is gonna take powers into his own hand try not to be a hypocrite all the time and just assasinate his own way to be the knight of one and kill zero at the same time.

geez, suzaku should just go to dictator academy and learn how to get power the right way and be very cool at the same time.

idk, something about him just rubs me the wrong way, i dont really hate him or anything but his actions just frustrate me.
i think it's cuz suzaku flipflops a lot...at least that's the impression he gives off to me
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Old 2008-06-24, 17:57   Link #2102
demon_god04
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Well his indecisive quality is the one thing that is still annoying me about Suzaku's character.
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Old 2008-06-24, 17:58   Link #2103
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
That doesn't make no sense. WHY would they invade a country already under their control? How does that even sound remotely logical?
because you assume that the rest of brittania will just stand by as they see how thing they dont like happen.

WHen he has complete control over japan it means the emperor has no jurisdiction there thats what complete control means. That means its independent do you comprehend that reasoning. Cuz i thought it was obvious that if a region has its own leader rules etc its basically independent. If your telling me japan is still brittania then basically he has no complete control and still needs to listen to the emperor

Thus if they DONT like what he is doing the unwanted attention japanese people sayingw hat they want against brits and japs going to the same schools etc who knows they might invade it all over again.

please think more deeply before you say its nonsense

@m1thril difference is suzaku's dad was no way similar to hitler so that argument is BS. I dont get your comparison with the atomic bomb at all. please clarify. BTW japan was already in rubbles and the people in japan did not want to give up for example toudou etc. Now i dunno about the citicenz because i cant recall their viewpoint. But i know the toudou and his group could not accept the defeat.
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Old 2008-06-24, 17:59   Link #2104
m1thril
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Didn't we already go over this though I expect him to have a plan when he is trying something as ambitious as what he is claiming to.

The Elevens were crushed when Zero was gone and the Black Rebellion failed, I'm just saying that if Suzaku had been able to do something to help the Elevens he could work on regaining their trust, possibly as a condition for capturing Lelouch or for his support to capture C.C. All he has basically done in over a year on his supposed goal is to become the Knight of Seven, no attempt to gather political support or anything.
hm...not necessarily...it seems to me like he's trying to gain the 2nd prince's support (what's his name?)...in all of season 2, suzaku seems to show up often with him, but then again he could have been ordered to do so and we do not know the 2nd prince's agenda, so we'll have to wait and see whether suzaku is an idiot or not

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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
because you assume that the rest of brittania will just stand by as they see how thing they dont like happen.

WHen he has complete control over japan it means the emperor has no jurisdiction there thats what complete control means. That means its independent do you comprehend that reasoning. Cuz i thought it was obvious that if a region has its own leader rules etc its basically independent. If your telling me japan is still brittania then basically he has no complete control and still needs to listen to the emperor

Thus if they DONT like what he is doing the unwanted attention japanese people sayingw hat they want against brits and japs going to the same schools etc who knows they might invade it all over again.

please think more deeply before you say its nonsense

@m1thril difference is suzaku's dad was no way similar to hitler so that argument is BS
i said situation-wise not personality-wise...please read before you comment
britannia does still have jurisdiction over the area, BUT the knight of one has free reign over it. i highly doubt charles will interfere with his way of ruling it as long as the knight of one proves he is still competent.

Last edited by m1thril; 2008-06-24 at 18:11.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:01   Link #2105
kk2extreme
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he show watch death note and learn something from it (how to be a criminal mastermind 101), or at least take some lessons from charles, openly state his opinion, moral or not
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:03   Link #2106
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Japan getting split in three parts in a possibly endless war is a good alternative then? Riiight...
That is an one possibility and there was another possibility of Japna surrendering eventually. Then again this is a speculation; however, I still think that a ten year old killing his father and trying to make a decision for entire nation is wrong.
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Oh not this excuse. He claims he WAS doing it for his sister, but I don;t think that is entirely accurate. I think he is doing this for himself just as much. He is an angry kid, and wants petty revenge on his father. Does he honestly care that much about the Japanese? Or was he just using them for his purposes to topple Britannia? Besides, I don't think Lelouch knows his sister very well if that is his reason. Considering she said she does not approve of his methods. So his only purpose was wrong to begin with.
Well to bad that is what Lelouch himself said. He does think that what he is doing is best for Nunally. So in the end that is a legitimate excuse. And yeah I never said anything about him caring about Japanese because I know he doesn't care what happens as long as he gets what he want. But still later on he at least realized that he is fighting for more than his sister, which I think is a better reason than Suzaku.


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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
WRONG. Suzaku is doing it because he thinks the cause is just and correct. Not that he is just and correct. He regrets killing his father every day. It isn't that he was old when he did it either, he was a goddamn ten year old. How do you think he felt afterwards for such a young child to do something like that? It destroyed him.
Yeah and what is the major differnece from what you said and what I said? Oh I am sorry I forgot to but the s at the end of think, oh my apology .

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
No. He doesn't like killing needlessly. He will kill when he has to, but it doesn't mean he would like it.
Did I ever said he likes to kill other? NO, I said him killing other is contradiction of what he siad

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
I think you need to go back and re-watch every episode because that is the most blatant lie I have ever heard on the character.
Really ignoring the consent of the Chinese people despite knowing that Eunuchs was corrupted and he knew that Chinese federation will be absorbed into Britannia, he still let all this go without even slight hesitation. So in my view he does not really care about the view of common people.


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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
And what Lelouch is doing is any more right than what Suzaku is doing? LOLZ!
To me yes as Lelouch does have some justification while Suzaku's reason is quite selfish. Of course Lelouch's action is corrupted but still it is just my view.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:04   Link #2107
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
he show watch death note and learn something from it (how to be a criminal mastermind 101), or at least take some lessons from charles, openly state his opinion, moral or not
And then the show would be Lelouch against Lelouch 2. Yeah, that would be way better.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:04   Link #2108
Orga777
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
WHen he has complete control over japan it means the emperor has no jurisdiction there thats what complete control means. That means its independent do you comprehend that reasoning. Cuz i thought it was obvious that if a region has its own leader rules etc its basically independent. If your telling me japan is still brittania then basically he has no complete control and still needs to listen to the emperor
What? Where do you get this? The Emperor is still the emperor and Area 11 is still part of his kingdom. He still has power. It isn't like Suzaku is going to turn it into a private army, he just wants to return the citizens their rights. Do you even realize what you are saying?

Quote:
Thus if they DONT like what he is doing the unwanted attention japanese people sayingw hat they want against brits and japs going to the same schools etc who knows they might invade it all over again.
You obviously have no idea how the political system works then.
Not only that, but by then he would be able to gain support for what he wants done, and can actually change things. How can you not understand that?

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please think more deeply before you say its nonsense
The same can be said about you since you obviously have no idea what the hell you are talking about or making any sense at all.

Quote:
@m1thril difference is suzaku's dad was no way similar to hitler so that argument is BS
No, he was just too stupid to understand that he was ready to wipe out his entire country and all its people in a bloody war with no end.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:05   Link #2109
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
because you assume that the rest of brittania will just stand by as they see how thing they dont like happen.

WHen he has complete control over japan it means the emperor has no jurisdiction there thats what complete control means. That means its independent do you comprehend that reasoning. Cuz i thought it was obvious that if a region has its own leader rules etc its basically independent. If your telling me japan is still brittania then basically he has no complete control and still needs to listen to the emperor

Thus if they DONT like what he is doing the unwanted attention japanese people sayingw hat they want against brits and japs going to the same schools etc who knows they might invade it all over again.

please think more deeply before you say its nonsense

@m1thril difference is suzaku's dad was no way similar to hitler so that argument is BS
The governer has the authority to manage the Area he is assigned but the Emperor can still override him. And judging from the fact that Euphie had to give up her right to the throne just to set up the SAZ they also cannot overstep their bounds. An Area is still part of Britannia so I don't really get what you are saying.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:06   Link #2110
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
hm...not necessarily...it seems to me like he's trying to gain the 2nd prince's support (what's his name?)...in all of season 2, suzaku seems to show up often with him, but then again he could have been ordered to do so and we do not know the 2nd prince's agenda, so we'll have to wait and see whether suzaku is an idiot or not



i said situation-wise not personality-wise...please read before you comment
and what the hell is that supposed to mean?

a similar situation should be similar in all aspects. Hitler is an extreme example of evil in history. Your making Suzaku's dad who obviously was not a maniac as some retarded fuck. Do you know the plans of the army of japan at thattime like the prime minister perhaps you think 4- 10 year old suzaku knew them please safe me the drama thats too far fetched.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
The governer has the authority to manage the Area he is assigned but the Emperor can still override him. And judging from the fact that Euphie had to give up her right to the throne just to set up the SAZ they also cannot overstep their bounds. An Area is still part of Britannia so I don't really get what you are saying.
The point is that
Orga777 & Eliarine

Argue that if suzaku ur round of one he has complete control complete control means you have COMPLETE CONTROL not a bit or i need to also justify COMPLETE is COMPLETE.

we were talking about the round of one. Basically what i get from you is that even IF suzaku becomes Round of One he will still be part of britannia and thus will need to explain to the emperor. If the emperor Sees something he does not like. They will say no. If suzaku says well im still gonna do it they will have a crisis and war will happen or he will be put out of office.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:11   Link #2111
blitz1/2
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Well that is pretty general and vague. I am going to skip the first one for now and go to the second one. Lelouch wanting to kill his dad is justified if you think otherwise please explain because I would love to hear it. While on other hand Suzaku killed his dad out of his own because he thought it was the correcting thing to do as Japan was in war and he wanted end the war. However this was what Suzaku himself thought and in the end Japan surrender. Basically he thought he was the doing the right thing without thinking of the opinion of other Japanese.
The third one, Lelouch's reason for his evil doing is for his sister. Suzaku is doing what he is doing because he think he is just and correct. Really and Suzaku is contradicting himself as he himself does not want violence and yet he kills other. Not only that Suzaku seems to not to care about common people, especially looking at the most recent episode.

The fourth one, well Suzaku does not want to change the world but he just want to stabilize Japan. And let's be honest letting Brittania do what it is doing isn't exactly good. And the final one yes let Suzaku die already .
How about yes, let Lulu die.

Lelouch should also know this. You can't create a peaceful world with violence. Sure, they'll be momentary peace but people are usually just controlled with fear and some can go radical. So, the same that Suzaku can't change things from the inside neitehr can Lulu.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:12   Link #2112
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
That is an one possibility and there was another possibility of Japna surrendering eventually.
Then WHAT the hell are you complaining about? The same thing would have happened.

Quote:
Then again this is a speculation; however, I still think that a ten year old killing his father and trying to make a decision for entire nation is wrong.
His father was an ass and yet Suzaku still regrets doing it. So what is your point?

Quote:
Well to bad that is what Lelouch himself said.
And Suzaku said he wants to help people and yet you dispute taht. You have an interesting double-standard.

Quote:
He does think that what he is doing is best for Nunally.
Then he never truly understood his sister who said right in his face that his methods are wrong.

Quote:
And yeah I never said anything about him caring about Japanese because I know he doesn't care what happens as long as he gets what he want. But still later on he at least realized that he is fighting for more than his sister, which I think is a better reason than Suzaku.
Later on he did learn... Later on as in R2 that is... after Nunnally pretty much told him he was wrong.

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Yeah and what is the major differnece from what you said and what I said? Oh I am sorry I forgot to but the s at the end of think, oh my apology .
The difference is that he believes in a cause, not that he is right or perfect.
Quote:
Did I ever said he likes to kill other? NO, I said him killing other is contradiction of what he siad
Does he have a choice?

Quote:
Really ignoring the consent of the Chinese people despite knowing that Eunuchs was corrupted and he knew that Chinese federation will be absorbed into Britannia, he still let all this go without even slight hesitation. So in my view he does not really care about the view of common people.
For the one millionth time, Suzaku has no political pull at all. That whole thing was Schneizel's plan. And they weren't going to absorb the CF, just become allies with them due to an arranged marriage.

Quote:
To me yes as Lelouch does have some justification while Suzaku's reason is quite selfish. Of course Lelouch's action is corrupted but still it is just my view.
Then you are going with a double standard there. Lelouch is at least just as selfish as Suzaku. Except Suzaku doesn't use people like they are toys and then toss them away.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:12   Link #2113
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No, he was just too stupid to understand that he was ready to wipe out his entire country and all its people in a bloody war with no end.
And instead the Japanese people are now called elevens and treated like lower forms of life. Depends on personal opinon really. Is it better to fight to the death, or live a horrible life with constant fear of death? I prefer the former myself.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:13   Link #2114
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
How about yes, let Lulu die.

Lelouch should also know this. You can't create a peaceful world with violence. Sure, they'll be momentary peace but people are usually just controlled with fear and some can go radical. So, the same that Suzaku can't change things from the inside neither can Lulu.
Thing is this hold only for brittania as they control people with violence. Lulu fights for freedom. In history 99% of the time peace & order comes first by revolts war etc. Then you need to work to ensure peace

@Orga777 you know i would view suzaku morally right if he really thought killing was bad and instead of killing was a sort of Schenizel who uses politics and never violence because he already killed and to that even his dad. Then i would view him like ok he really is trying to do things for the better.

But Orga777 i see him fighting wars in other countries for people he is trying to change? Thats simply weird in every way.

The argument you and Eliarine make is this

you hate wars, BUT you go in the US army(WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) then you go to iraq and bomb the shit out iraq.

I mean if you hate war dont make wars. Thats why I do not condone nor think he has the best interest for japan. his logic is simply weird i dont get it :S
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:15   Link #2115
Orga777
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Originally Posted by thedonkiluminati View Post
And instead the Japanese people are now called elevens and treated like lower forms of life. Depends on personal opinon really. Is it better to fight to the death, or live a horrible life with constant fear of death? I prefer the former myself.
Yeah? But that former view point is what ended up having two nukes dropped on them in real life (and even after that there was almost a coup that would have continued WWII even longer.) They were ready to fight till they were all dead. Is that really better than surrender?
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:16   Link #2116
blitz1/2
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Thing is this hold only for brittania as they control people with violence. Lulu fight for freedom. In history 99% of the time peace & order comes first by revolts war etc. Then you need to work to ensre peace
Or so he says. To me, it just seems like the roots of a dictatorship to me. Lulu can sugarcoat however he much. But his behavior (killing civilians) doesn't appeal freedom that much does it.

And how would Lulu maintain that peace, geass everyone and say that everyone must be peaceful? (he did actually do that in my fanfiction but plan failed)
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:19   Link #2117
thedonkiluminati
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Yeah? But that former view point is what ended up having two nukes dropped on them in real life (and even after that there was almost a coup that would have continued WWII even longer.) They were ready to fight till they were all dead. Is that really better than surrender?
Like I said, personal opinon. I'd rather go down fighting.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:19   Link #2118
m1thril
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and what the hell is that supposed to mean?

a similar situation should be similar in all aspects. Hitler is an extreme example of evil in history. Your making Suzaku's dad who obviously was not a maniac as some retarded fuck. Do you know the plans of the army of japan at thattime like the prime minister perhaps you think 4- 10 year old suzaku knew them please safe me the drama thats too far fetched.

The point is that
Orga777 & Eliarine

Argue that if suzaku ur round of one he has complete control complete control means you have COMPLETE CONTROL not a bit or i need to also justify COMPLETE is COMPLETE.

we were talking about the round of one. Basically what i get from you is that even IF suzaku becomes Round of One he will still be part of britannia and thus will need to explain to the emperor. If the emperor Sees something he does not like. They will say no. If suzaku says well im still gonna do it they will have a crisis and war will happen or he will be put out of office.
sit·u·a·tion Audio Help /ˌsɪtʃuˈeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sich-oo-ey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. manner of being situated; location or position with reference to environment: The situation of the house allowed for a beautiful view.
2. a place or locality.
3. condition; case; plight: He is in a desperate situation.
4. the state of affairs; combination of circumstances: The present international situation is dangerous.
5. a position or post of employment; job.
6. a state of affairs of special or critical significance in the course of a play, novel, etc.
7. Sociology. the aggregate of biological, psychological, and sociocultural factors acting on an individual or group to condition behavioral patterns.
[Origin: 1480–90; < ML situātiōn- (s. of situātiō). See situate, -ion]

as you can see...similar situations do not necessarily need to be similar in all aspects. i am referring to definition #3 or #4 while you are referring to #7

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Originally Posted by thedonkiluminati View Post
Like I said, personal opinon. I'd rather go down fighting.
if that is your personal opinion, then yes i can see why suzaku is an ass to you as suzaku deprived them of probably their most capable leader at that time
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:22   Link #2119
demon_god04
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But he had no real power in the political system whether he is a Knight of Seven or not! Do we even know that he DIDN'T propose something? Who the hell would listen to him? The country tried to throw a damn coup on them, and you think they are going to play nice with that? What do you think he has teh power to do when nobody is going to listen? You can't answer that with anything. He couldn't DO anything. The Rebellion made it impossible for anything to be done. The Britannian government didn't trust the Elevens, and teh Elevens didn't trust the Britannian government. There is nothing he has the power to do.
I was just throwing an idea out there, fact of the matter is that if the Britannian government were receptive to the idea of change, then the Black Rebellion would have been a giant wake up call that their current way of managing the areas needed to be revised. People do not try a coup just for the fun of it, they do so when there are enough that are discontented with their rulers. I was suggesting that Suzaku could have use his position as the Knight of Seven, which was respected as one of the Emperor's closest knights, to propose atleast a gradual change. Perhaps not right away for Area 11 but for another Area to use as a model, atleast something to farther his goals.


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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
hm...not necessarily...it seems to me like he's trying to gain the 2nd prince's support (what's his name?)...in all of season 2, suzaku seems to show up often with him, but then again he could have been ordered to do so and we do not know the 2nd prince's agenda, so we'll have to wait and see whether suzaku is an idiot or not
Well Suzaku was assigned to Schneizel for the European campaign and the the three Knight of Rounds were assigned to Schneizel again in China. I conceed that he may have made some sort of deal with Schneizel, I can actually see Schneizel promising Suzaku some concessions in return for supporting his bid for the throne when the time is right. What really gets me is that Suzaku has not exactly been shown to have any plan at all though.
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Old 2008-06-24, 18:24   Link #2120
wtfftw
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Yeah? But that former view point is what ended up having two nukes dropped on them in real life (and even after that there was almost a coup that would have continued WWII even longer.) They were ready to fight till they were all dead. Is that really better than surrender?
its a matter of opinion and consensus. If all japanese people wanted to fight on but 1 kid didnt whow as the son of the emperor then he has no right to kill his dad.

However we know little about the actual war but some scenes. In the anime we were not show A bombs being dropped so i doubt it had the pressure as it did in our time.
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