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Old 2008-06-25, 03:14   Link #2181
m1thril
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Martin Luther King Jr used openly opposed methods to bring changes, even if his methods did not involve violence.

Suzaku hasn't even shown any sign of opposing, he was even willing to go along with the fact that an innocent girl should be sacrificed so that a group of genderless men could become nobilities. If Suzaku is only going to care about his own people (the Japanese) and not care about others in similar conditions, what good is he?
you forget that LL was also about to sacrifice the little girl too in order to benefit himself

true suzaku could try the MLK method...but it is very risky as i think that britannia would have no problems killing any protesters.

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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Diethard was given his position because of his skills and talents in information manipulation. Lelouch doesn't give out ranks for friendship, gender, race, etc, he gives them out due to talents and skills, to merit.
sounds like something britannia would do...prime example = suzaku
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:18   Link #2182
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
you forget that LL was also about to sacrifice the little girl too in order to benefit himself



sounds like something britannia would do...prime example = suzaku
1) Lelouch had never planned to sacrifice Tianzi, he freed her from the control of the Eunuchs though he made it look like a kidnapping. If Lelouch had revealed that he had never intended to harm her in the first place, his kidnapping would never have succeeded. The guards would've done something more drastic if they didn't have to fear for the life of the Tianzi.

2) Suzaku is the only example of being given a rank for merit, and don't forget that he had the support of Lloyd and Euphemia. To Schneizel and Charles, Suzaku is still a useful tool, nothing more. And Britannia still openly exercises inequality between real britannians and honorary citizens and numbers.
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:27   Link #2183
m1thril
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
1) Lelouch had never planned to sacrifice Tianzi, he freed her from the control of the Eunuchs though he made it look like a kidnapping. If Lelouch had revealed that he had never intended to harm her in the first place, his kidnapping would never have succeeded. The guards would've done something more drastic if they didn't have to fear for the life of the Tianzi.

2) Suzaku is the only example of being given a rank for merit, and don't forget that he had the support of Lloyd and Euphemia. To Schneizel and Charles, Suzaku is still a useful tool, nothing more. And Britannia still openly exercises inequality between real britannians and honorary citizens and numbers.
1) uh...he was about to have her marry a japanese man and geass Li into agreeing with it...it wasn't until the girls in the OoBK rebelled that he decided to let her do whatever she wanted

2) let's see the KoR...all ranking officers...viletta...not to mention in order to receive the the crown...the person must prove they are worthy of it...yes there is still inequality but in the eyes of britannia, the japanese are not deemed worthy since they lost the war.
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:33   Link #2184
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
1) uh...he was about to have her marry a japanese man and geass Li into agreeing with it...it wasn't until the girls in the OoBK rebelled that he decided to let her do whatever she wanted

2) let's see the KoR...all ranking officers...viletta...not to mention in order to receive the the crown...the person must prove they are worthy of it...yes there is still inequality but in the eyes of britannia, the japanese are not deemed worthy since they lost the war.
They aren't considered worthy because they are not Britannians, nothing to do with losing or winning. And in the first season it was mentioned that only Britannians could become knightmare pilots, Suzaku was the only exception because Lancelot was a prototype. You could even say he was used as a test pilot for an untested frame.

Lelouch was divided on whether he should follow Diethard's suggestion or not, he hadn't made a final decision and CC's objection made him analyze his options even more. He said he wondered why CC objected because she was aware that he could Geass Li and the rest of them into accepting but she objected anyway.
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Old 2008-06-25, 03:46   Link #2185
m1thril
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ok ill admit that britannia takes race into account

however....LL wasn't divided on whether he should follow his suggestion...he was going to do it (he was already planning on how to explain the marriage to other people) until the girls objected.
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Old 2008-06-25, 07:28   Link #2186
blitz1/2
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Lulu is somewhat right when Suzaku is predictable.

Right now, Suzaku goes first with VARIS then if it is blocked, he goes and switches to his Hadron which makes a sitting duck for a few moments.

He relies on the Hadron too much especially against more manueverable foes.
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Old 2008-06-25, 07:39   Link #2187
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Lulu is somewhat right when Suzaku is predictable.

Right now, Suzaku goes first with VARIS then if it is blocked, he goes and switches to his Hadron which makes a sitting duck for a few moments.

He relies on the Hadron too much especially against more manueverable foes.
He relies on the technological advancement of his knightmare frame too much, I wonder how skilled he really is if he were to fight against someone like Guilford in equal knightmare frames.
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Old 2008-06-25, 08:44   Link #2188
Eliarine
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Lelouch never once said he wanted to kill his father, he said he wants to find out why his mother was killed.
I'm pretty sure his Destroy Britannia Plan involves killing his own father. That's also what Suzaku concludes in the last Picture drama.

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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
And Lelouch doing evil things is relative, it depends on the point of view of the viewer.
And Suzaku doing evil things is not? Please, Lelouch spent the whole first season claiming he'll become "evil to destroy evil", and everyone worships him and sees him as a God. Suzaku uses Nunally once and he's the Devil incarnate. Make up your mind, people. Those double standards are really getting annoying.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:14   Link #2189
aurr
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And Suzaku doing evil things is not? Please, Lelouch spent the whole first season claiming he'll become "evil to destroy evil", and everyone worships him and sees him as a God. Suzaku uses Nunally once and he's the Devil incarnate. Make up your mind, people. Those double standards are really getting annoying.
It;s the way of being evil. Lelouch killing many people, including Shirely's father,well, very evil, but direct. Lelouch betraying his best frien and then using his sister agains thim, that is SICK. think about it.
I suck at arguing, so please take over this.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:20   Link #2190
Eliarine
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It;s the way of being evil. Lelouch killing many people, including Shirely's father,well, very evil, but direct. Lelouch betraying his best frien and then using his sister agains thim, that is SICK. think about it.
I suck at arguing, so please take over this.
...?

Okay so first I imagine you meant Suzaku in that second sentence. Second, no, "betraying" your best friend is not any more "sick" that some of the methods Lelouch has been using. But then again I guess this is up to interpretation. And finally, I'm not going into this again, but to some of us, there was betrayal on both sides, at least from Suzaku's point of view. Think about it?
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:29   Link #2191
demon_god04
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People cut Lelouch some slack because of results and that he doesn't lie to himself about what he is doing. Suzaku has done all those "evil" things, betrayed his best friend, etc. to accomplish essentially nothing so far other then farther the oppression of the government he profess to desire to change from within. No goals and no plans other then "I'm going to be Knight of One for the Japanese so Zero isn't needed."

Lelouch on the other hand was on the verge of beating the Britannians in the Black Rebellion, he messed up and made things worst for a year, yet he still came within reach of one of his goals. Then he comes back a year later and is forming an alliance that can rival Britannia.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:31   Link #2192
Verist
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
People cut Lelouch some slack because of results and that he doesn't lie to himself about what he is doing. Suzaku has done all those "evil" things, betrayed his best friend, etc. to accomplish essentially nothing so far other then farther the oppression of the government he profess to desire to change from within. No goals and no plans other then "I'm going to be Knight of One for the Japanese so Zero isn't needed."

Lelouch on the other hand was on the verge of beating the Britannians in the Black Rebellion, he messed up and made things worst for a year, yet he still came within reach of one of his goals. Then he comes back a year later and is forming an alliance that can rival Britannia.
amen brother (or sister)

Suzaku is close to having the ephinpy, right around the last episode when he switches sides.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:52   Link #2193
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
People cut Lelouch some slack because of results and that he doesn't lie to himself about what he is doing. Suzaku has done all those "evil" things, betrayed his best friend, etc. to accomplish essentially nothing so far other then farther the oppression of the government he profess to desire to change from within. No goals and no plans other then "I'm going to be Knight of One for the Japanese so Zero isn't needed."

Lelouch on the other hand was on the verge of beating the Britannians in the Black Rebellion, he messed up and made things worst for a year, yet he still came within reach of one of his goals. Then he comes back a year later and is forming an alliance that can rival Britannia.
Not only that, but I'm a fan of Lelouch because I identify with him and because he is using methods which I have considered in real life to liberate my country from an oppressive government which is letting hundreds of thousands die. I'm not like Suzaku and just going to sit around waiting to change from within.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:52   Link #2194
Blue_Mercy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
People cut Lelouch some slack because of results and that he doesn't lie to himself about what he is doing. Suzaku has done all those "evil" things, betrayed his best friend, etc. to accomplish essentially nothing so far other then farther the oppression of the government he profess to desire to change from within. No goals and no plans other then "I'm going to be Knight of One for the Japanese so Zero isn't needed."
Quoted for Truth.

If Lelouch had achieved nothing for the Japanese, then I would say he is no better than Suzaku, but he has in just a few weeks time with some help from Nunnally reduced the terrible treatment in Area 11 and produced a peaceful haven without Britannian rule for them to live. What has Suzaku achieved? Nothing. If anything he has moved it in the wrong direction, he has a goal yes; but as I just mentioned in the Ep 11 thread, even if Suzaku is able to achieve Knight of #1 status and rule Area 11, Suzaku ruling does not equal a saved Japan.
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Old 2008-06-25, 09:52   Link #2195
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Suzaku has done all those "evil" things, betrayed his best friend, etc. to accomplish essentially nothing so far other then farther the oppression of the government he profess to desire to change from within. No goals and no plans other then "I'm going to be Knight of One for the Japanese so Zero isn't needed."
So becoming Knight of Seven is nothing, and his goal and plan doesn't count. Okay. I have now seen the light and will stop deluding myself, thank you.

Before Lelouch had power he couldn't do anything either, he just had plans. Results came with power. Now Suzaku has power too, and a plan. But it's not the same. I get it.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Lelouch on the other hand was on the verge of beating the Britannians in the Black Rebellion, he messed up and made things worst for a year, yet he still came within reach of one of his goals. Then he comes back a year later and is forming an alliance that can rival Britannia.
I see. So Lelouch can fail and worsen the situation for a while and still have another chance. Suzaku can't have a chance at all because he hasn't accomplished anything yet.

Your backing everything with results results and more results just makes me believe that you see things the way Lelouch sees them. Which would also explain why you won't cut Suzaku some slack too.
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Old 2008-06-25, 10:03   Link #2196
aurr
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Yes i meant Suzaku in the second sentence. XD sorry.
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Old 2008-06-25, 10:07   Link #2197
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
So becoming Knight of Seven is nothing, and his goal and plan doesn't count. Okay. I have now seen the light and will stop deluding myself, thank you.

Before Lelouch had power he couldn't do anything either, he just had plans. Results came with power. Now Suzaku has power too, and a plan. But it's not the same. I get it.

I see. So Lelouch can fail and worsen the situation for a while and still have another chance. Suzaku can't have a chance at all because he hasn't accomplished anything yet.

Your backing everything with results results and more results just makes me believe that you see things the way Lelouch sees them. Which would also explain why you won't cut Suzaku some slack too.
Becoming Knight of Seven is nothing if he does not do anything with that position to farther his ideal. So far Suzaku has not been shown to be doing anything to farther his supposed idea of changing Britannia from the inside. Although I did promise Orga that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he does the next few episodes so I'll stop on this point for now.

If Lelouch had stopped with the failed Black Rebellion then he'd be no better then Suzaku in my eyes. Yet Lelouch came back stronger then before and made even more progress towards his plans. That is the difference.

People can't live on good intentions alone, I can have the best intentions in the world and yet it would amount to nothing if nothing comes out of it.

And I only really replied because you seem to think that everyone who hates Suzaku does so unfairly and holds this supposed double standard for him and Lelouch.
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Old 2008-06-25, 10:07   Link #2198
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy View Post
Quoted for Truth.

If Lelouch had achieved nothing for the Japanese, then I would say he is no better than Suzaku, but he has in just a few weeks time with some help from Nunnally reduced the terrible treatment in Area 11 and produced a peaceful haven without Britannian rule for them to live. What has Suzaku achieved? Nothing. If anything he has moved it in the wrong direction, he has a goal yes; but as I just mentioned in the Ep 11 thread, even if Suzaku is able to achieve Knight of #1 status and rule Area 11, Suzaku ruling does not equal a saved Japan.
Agreed, even if Suzaku becomes Governor General of Area 11 and is allowed to rule the way he wants, as a Knight of Rounds he will still have to obey the orders of the Emperor and if Suzaku does something in Area 11 that the Emperor does not agree with, goodbye Governor Suzaku and Hello Governor Britannian.

It's not true freedom and liberty. Anything that falls short of true freedom and liberty is not worth anything.

It would've been an entirely different matter if Britannia had a very enlightened government and people lived in peace and freedom and equality and the Japanese government was oppressing their own people so Britannia invaded to liberate the people...however the FACT is that this was NOT the case. Britannia invaded to rule over Japan and the sakuradite resource.

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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Your backing everything with results results and more results just makes me believe that you see things the way Lelouch sees them. Which would also explain why you won't cut Suzaku some slack too.
Yes, results are all that matters, even if Suzaku has good ideas and intentions, as long as there isn't any result its the same as doing nothing at all. Put yourself in the shoes of the Japanese people who are under Britannian rule, think of what you would do and how you would feel if your country was suddenly invaded for no reason at all and you are called only by a number.
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Old 2008-06-25, 10:10   Link #2199
Orga777
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Originally Posted by aurr
It;s the way of being evil. Lelouch killing many people, including Shirely's father,well, very evil, but direct. Lelouch betraying his best frien and then using his sister agains thim, that is SICK. think about it.
I suck at arguing, so please take over this.
Oh my GOD... That is just the most annoying thing I have ever read involving these two characters. Lelouch USED everybody for his own selfish gains, accidently Geassed Euphie and then used that to further his own gains, lied CONSTANTLY to everyone he has come in contact with, and yet Suzaku doing something Lelouch would do himself is sick? That, is bull shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
If Lelouch had achieved nothing for the Japanese, then I would say he is no better than Suzaku, but he has in just a few weeks time with some help from Nunnally reduced the terrible treatment in Area 11 and produced a peaceful haven without Britannian rule for them to live.
WRONG. It wasn't because of Nunnally that they got away scott free. Suzaku could have ordered everyone to fire, and there would have been another massacre. So the only reason they got out at all is because Suzaku was there (if he wasn't the others would have killed them all.) So you should be thanking Suzaku for letting them get away and credit him for helping Lelouch get those 1 million people out of harms way.

Besides, how does that help the average citizen? That one million people Lelouch saved? They are all most likely part of the Black Knights now as far as he is concerned.

Quote:
What has Suzaku achieved? Nothing. If anything he has moved it in the wrong direction, he has a goal yes; but as I just mentioned in the Ep 11 thread, even if Suzaku is able to achieve Knight of #1 status and rule Area 11, Suzaku ruling does not equal a saved Japan.
What do you mean "saved" Japan? He will try all he can to return their rights as much as possible while still keeping them under Britannian rule. Maybe reconstruct the ghettos, give them better opportunities in the military and work force, and who knows what else. The country doesn't have to be liberated for everything to work out.
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Old 2008-06-25, 10:15   Link #2200
Dynastya
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What do you mean "saved" Japan? He will try all he can to return their rights as much as possible while still keeping them under Britannian rule. Maybe reconstruct the ghettos, give them better opportunities in the military and work force, and who knows what else. The country doesn't have to be liberated for everything to work out.
Go ask any person in real life how they would feel if their country was suddenly invaded and they lose their national identity and are just called a number.

....a country doesn't have to be liberated for everything to work out....BAH!!! If thats the way you think, I feel pity for you.
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