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Old 2008-06-25, 16:03   Link #2261
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Oh please, be my guest, don't let anything stop you from doing so. Then I'll show you how easily each one of them can be contested.
Are you by any chance arguing that Lelouch doesn't have any faults? That's seriously damaging his character in my opinion.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:05   Link #2262
Silver Soul
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I'll be like comparing Light Yagami if he did but we all know Lelouch has't step that far.........yet
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:10   Link #2263
canis
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Having pride is more important, a person without pride is nothing more than just an animal.

"Humans are weak against force and violence, against such concepts their only desire is to survive no matter what, they lose all pride and respect."

I'm reminded of the famous Rickoverian Paradox at this moment:

(http://test.jbs.org/node/544)

Two individuals, the sole survivors of a tragic shipwreck, are adrift in a small, damaged lifeboat. The water is pitilessly cold. The boat itself is damaged in such a way that it will only be able to carry one of its occupants, and then perhaps only for a short time. It is impossible to repair the boat. If nothing is done, both occupants will perish. But whichever is discarded will die very quickly.

One of those aboard the stricken lifeboat is a highly trained military officer with valuable perhaps irreplaceable technical skills. A huge sum has been spent on his training, which is of critical importance since the country is at war.

The other individual is an innocent and law-abiding person of no particular achievements or aptitudes. Few if any would notice that person's absence, and the community at large would be impoverished in no discernible way if he were consigned to an early, watery grave.

Since only one can be saved, which of the two should it be?


In the case of Lelouch, he is irreplaceable as the leader of the Black Knights, and he alone has the charisma, intelligence, brains and ability to challenge Britannia and lead the Black Knights (which is also stated by Todoh and Ougi and several others).
Nobody will contest Lelouch's pride... But sometimes he is prone to false pride as well. Of course it gives him the strength to go about his goals and be ambitious, but getting fired up about a chess game with his dear brother might bite him in the ass... He is a hothead and might give away more information than he should that way.
And of course Zero is the only one able to challenge Britannia... He has a vast advantage with his Geass and C.C.'s knowledge. I don't mean to say, that anyone with a Geass could replace him but a big part in his success and the loyalty of his followers stems from the fact that he could pull miracles out of his hat whenever he needed them...
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:12   Link #2264
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Oh please, be my guest, don't let anything stop you from doing so. Then I'll show you how easily each one of them can be contested.
Really now? I would love to argue these points actually, just to see how some of you Lelouch backers actually think the way you do. It may even help me out in future debates. Or it may hurt my arguments. I guess we will see.

Lelouch's faults:
An overall murderous man who doesn't care who gets in his way, even innocent by standards, as long as he is victorious.

Manipulative to the point of making himself look good in disasters he originally caused in the first place.

Uses people like they are toys not caring how they feel.

Lies constantly to everyone he comes in contact with, only to use them for his own selfish gains.

Claims to fight those who abuses power, but constantly abuses his own.

Claims to be doing this for Nunnally when it appears he was doing it for himself more, or, if he really did think he was doing it for her, failed to truly understand how his sister really felt. Either way, he used her as a crutch.

Those are the ones that stick out the most for me....<.<
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:14   Link #2265
orangejuicetang
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Remember what the bible says about pride in prov. 16:18. "Pride cometh before destruction and the haughty spirit before the fall." Or to paraphase, "Pride goeth before destruction." Too much pride becomes arrogance, which leads to the downfall of many. And Lelouch is quite arrogant.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:15   Link #2266
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Really now? I would love to argue these points actually, just to see how some of you Lelouch backers actually think the way you do. It may even help me out in future debates. Or it may hurt my arguments. I guess we will see.

Lelouch's faults:
An overall murderous man who doesn't care who gets in his way, even innocent by standards, as long as he is victorious.

Manipulative to the point of making himself look good in disasters he originally caused in the first place.

Uses people like they are toys not caring how they feel.

Lies constantly to everyone he comes in contact with, only to use them for his own selfish gains.

Claims to fight those who abuses power, but constantly abuses his own.

Claims to be doing this for Nunnally when it appears he was doing it for himself more, or, if he really did think he was doing it for her, failed to truly understand how his sister really felt. Either way, he used her as a crutch.

Those are the ones that stick out the most for me....<.<
Lelouch fan respond "that was season one he's changed"
Lelouch fan respond 2 "he knows that and that's why we love him"

just to name a few
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:16   Link #2267
demon_god04
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I'd just like to point out that a few of them have changed Orga, he's not the same person he started out as. But I am curious what Dynastya comes up with first.

Well, he as changed Silver, some of those points could be partially contested even by R1 standards though. But all in all Lelouch has not exactly been shown to be a saint.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:16   Link #2268
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
I'd just like to point out that a few of them have changed Orga, he's not the same person he started out as. But I am curious what Dynastya comes up with first.
Oh I know that. But it took Nunnally giving him a mental breakdown for him to change.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:17   Link #2269
Silver Soul
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I'd just like to point out that a few of them have changed Orga, he's not the same person he started out as. But I am curious what Dynastya comes up with first.
previous post
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:19   Link #2270
demon_god04
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Oh I know that. But it took Nunnally giving him a mental breakdown for him to change.
I'd say that a few of them can still be contested by R1 standards, but the last one is basically true for Lelouch. Nunally was his crutch and his hold on "sanity".

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previous post
I edited my previous post after I saw yours
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:31   Link #2271
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Remember what the bible says about pride in prov. 16:18. "Pride cometh before destruction and the haughty spirit before the fall." Or to paraphase, "Pride goeth before destruction." Too much pride becomes arrogance, which leads to the downfall of many. And Lelouch is quite arrogant.
The Bible, the Qur'an, all those religious books were written by men who wanted power over their fellowmen. All BS.


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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Really now? I would love to argue these points actually, just to see how some of you Lelouch backers actually think the way you do. It may even help me out in future debates. Or it may hurt my arguments. I guess we will see.

Lelouch's faults:
An overall murderous man who doesn't care who gets in his way, even innocent by standards, as long as he is victorious.

Manipulative to the point of making himself look good in disasters he originally caused in the first place.

Uses people like they are toys not caring how they feel.

Lies constantly to everyone he comes in contact with, only to use them for his own selfish gains.

Claims to fight those who abuses power, but constantly abuses his own.

Claims to be doing this for Nunnally when it appears he was doing it for himself more, or, if he really did think he was doing it for her, failed to truly understand how his sister really felt. Either way, he used her as a crutch.

Those are the ones that stick out the most for me....<.<
1) Murdering innocent bystanders? And what has the Britannian army been doing? Handing out flowers? Clovis ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents, the britannian army just simply accepted euphemia's orders to kill the Japanese, carares executes prisoners everyday, etc. Compared to that Lelouch has always tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties most of which are purely accidental.

2) LOL no military commander with half a brain would ever give up a chance to take advantage of a good opportunity to gain leverage over an enemy. If Lelouch had given up this chance, he'd have to be a retard. But it was a pure accident that his geass had to run amok at this time and affect Euphiemia.

3) In any war, soldiers under your command, and soldiers under the command of the enemy (especially this latter group) are to be treated as tools in a war, or gears in a machine. Your soldiers must be like a perfectly oiled complex geared machinery in order to win battles and the enemy soldiers would serve best as tools to be used against themselves.

4) LOL if he doesn't keep his identity as Zero a secret, Nunally and potentially a lot of others in Ashford would be exposed to dangers. And he is trying to win a war against a much stronger enemy, he can't afford to be compassionate or feel towards anyone who could either be placed in danger or become a danger to him.

5) Most of his actions has made significant improvements for people who were once living under oppression. He doesn't order his own men to die for disobeying him, he doesn't go around ordering the slaughter of students, women and children.

His latest actions in CF has given the strength needed to the people living under tyranny so that they can rise up against their oppressors.

6) In R1 it was shown that he has Nunally on his mind all the time and that his desire is to find out why his mother died and protect Nunally. Sure you can say he was doing it for himself as his desire was to allow Nunally live in a nicer world and avenge their mother's death. Never once did he express any desire to overthrow his father and become emperor or the like. Because the way it was, they were still living under the constant fear that if the Emperor ever found out that they were still alive, there is still a chance that they could become pawns once again, and we still don't know why Marianne died and whether she actually died at all, as the rumors are going Marianne is supposedly one of the most powerful of CC and VV's people and if Lelouch and Nunally are her children who knows what potential their genes hold which could be made use of by the Emperor.

In R2, he has come to realize that he has now become much greater than just someone who wants to avenge the death of a loved one, he has become a symbol of hope for many people who are suffering.

And of course Nunally is a sort of anchor for Lelouch, one that holds him in check so that he doesn't become something like his father. Absolute power corrupts and he is aware of this so he needs someone like her to make sure he doesn't go over the line, someone who can bring him relief when he is stressed with the burden of command and warfare. Each and everyone in this series has something or someone worth fighting for.

For Lelouch is Nunally and his friends
For Kallen it is her mother
For Guilford it is his loyalty to Cornelia
For Schneizel it is his desire to surpass his father and become emperor (not 100% sure here but most likely)
For Ougi it is probably due to the promise he made to his friend (Kallen's brother)
For Todoh it is to reclaim the nation that he once served
For Xingke it is Tianzi
etc.....

BTW: those reasons you listed, please re-watch ALL the episodes, if you haven't seen them yet. Because they all either suck or are just plain BS.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:39   Link #2272
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
The Bible, the Qur'an, all those religious books were written by men who wanted power over their fellowmen. All BS.




1) Murdering innocent bystanders? And what has the Britannian army been doing? Handing out flowers? Clovis ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents, the britannian army just simply accepted euphemia's orders to kill the Japanese, carares executes prisoners everyday, etc. Compared to that Lelouch has always tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties most of which are purely accidental.

2) LOL no military commander with half a brain would ever give up a chance to take advantage of a good opportunity to gain leverage over an enemy. If Lelouch had given up this chance, he'd have to be a retard. But it was a pure accident that his geass had to run amok at this time and affect Euphiemia.

3) In any war, soldiers under your command, and soldiers under the command of the enemy (especially this latter group) are to be treated as tools in a war, or gears in a machine. Your soldiers must be like a perfectly oiled complex geared machinery in order to win battles and the enemy soldiers would serve best as tools to be used against themselves.

4) LOL if he doesn't keep his identity as Zero a secret, Nunally and potentially a lot of others in Ashford would be exposed to dangers. And he is trying to win a war against a much stronger enemy, he can't afford to be compassionate or feel towards anyone who could either be placed in danger or become a danger to him.

5) Most of his actions has made significant improvements for people who were once living under oppression. He doesn't order his own men to die for disobeying him, he doesn't go around ordering the slaughter of students, women and children.

His latest actions in CF has given the strength needed to the people living under tyranny so that they can rise up against their oppressors.

6) In R1 it was shown that he has Nunally on his mind all the time and that his desire is to find out why his mother died and protect Nunally. Sure you can say he was doing it for himself as his desire was to allow Nunally live in a nicer world and avenge their mother's death. Never once did he express any desire to overthrow his father and become emperor or the like. Because the way it was, they were still living under the constant fear that if the Emperor ever found out that they were still alive, there is still a chance that they could become pawns once again, and we still don't know why Marianne died and whether she actually died at all, as the rumors are going Marianne is supposedly one of the most powerful of CC and VV's people and if Lelouch and Nunally are her children who knows what potential their genes hold which could be made use of by the Emperor.

In R2, he has come to realize that he has now become much greater than just someone who wants to avenge the death of a loved one, he has become a symbol of hope for many people who are suffering.

BTW: those reasons you listed, please re-watch ALL the episodes, if you haven't seen them yet. Because they all either suck or are just plain BS.

Told ya Orga777 apparently to Dynastya Lelouch is freaking Jesus(although you make say differ from his first response) and cant do no wrong, yep typically Lelouch fan respond but I will give you a great amount of applaud for giving a trmendous about of detail for your reasons(especially considering the CF) so you win this round.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:42   Link #2273
Eliarine
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1) Compared to that Lelouch has always tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties most of which are purely accidental.
No. Lelouch is ready to sacrifice people for his own cause more than he's willing to spare lives. What about the JLF? And Shirley's dad? Those were proofs that Lelouch's way is not the less bloody of the two.

Quote:
2) LOL no military commander with half a brain would ever give up a chance to take advantage of a good opportunity to gain leverage over an enemy. If Lelouch had given up this chance, he'd have to be a retard. But it was a pure accident that his geass had to run amok at this time and affect Euphiemia.
No one is saying it wasn't an accident nor that Lelouch should not have taken advantage of it. But the truth is that he did it, and dismissing it as an accident that should be forgotten like some people keep doing is not an option. It shows that sometimes, even with the best of plans, things can go awry.

Quote:
3) In any war, soldiers under your command, and soldiers under the command of the enemy (especially this latter group) are to be treated as tools in a war, or gears in a machine. Your soldiers must be like a perfectly oiled complex geared machinery in order to win battles and the enemy soldiers would serve best as tools to be used against themselves.
That doesn't make it "good".

Quote:
5) Most of his actions has made significant improvements for people who were once living under oppression. He doesn't order his own men to die for disobeying him, he doesn't go around ordering the slaughter of students, women and children.
The situation of the japanese became much worse after he failed his rebellion.

Quote:
6) Never once did he express any desire to overthrow his father and become emperor or the like.
I'm curious as to how he can destroy Britannia without "overthrowing his father".

tl;dr: stop trying to turn Lelouch into a perfect little angel. Both him and Suzaku have faults and that's what makes the story interesting.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:42   Link #2274
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
1) Murdering innocent bystanders? And what has the Britannian army been doing? Handing out flowers? Clovis ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents, the britannian army just simply accepted euphemia's orders to kill the Japanese, carares executes prisoners everyday, etc. Compared to that Lelouch has always tried to minimize the amount of civilian casualties most of which are purely accidental.
Yeah? But guess what? Lelouch is no better than they are. Which is the whole point.

Quote:
2) LOL no military commander with half a brain would ever give up a chance to take advantage of a good opportunity to gain leverage over an enemy. If Lelouch had given up this chance, he'd have to be a retard. But it was a pure accident that his geass had to run amok at this time and affect Euphiemia.
Is that so? So acting like a conniving bastard just to get your way is a good way to act? Like setting a bomb under the JLF he was supposed to help? Or that whole issue by capturing the Empress of the CF by holding a gun to her head, THEN pretty mcuh turned the whole situation into "I am a hero"? And that Euphie thing... I just can't accept that no matter what. That was just sickening how he used that. And an accident? That is not all true. If Lelouch shut his big mouth and stopped gloating, it never would have happened in the first place.

Quote:
3) In any war, soldiers under your command, and soldiers under the command of the enemy (especially this latter group) are to be treated as tools in a war, or gears in a machine. Your soldiers must be like a perfectly oiled complex geared machinery in order to win battles and the enemy soldiers would serve best as tools to be used against themselves.
That is bullshit. You don;t treat your comrades like they are useless dolls. You are supposed to treat them with respect and compassion so you will get respect back. You aren't supposed to use your own troops as decoys, or use them as tools. That is a good way to get overthrown.
Quote:
4) LOL if he doesn't keep his identity as Zero a secret, Nunally and potentially a lot of others in Ashford would be exposed to dangers. And he is trying to win a war against a much stronger enemy, he can't afford to be compassionate or feel towards anyone who could either be placed in danger or become a danger to him.
That isn't directed at just teh Ashford gang. It is directed at everyone he effects. Also, I am not talking about his secret identity being exposed. I am talking about his rash actions and not caring what happens to people.

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5) Most of his actions has made significant improvements for people who were once living under oppression. He doesn't order his own men to die for disobeying him, he doesn't go around ordering the slaughter of students, women and children.
Significant improvements? WHAT changed? Nothing changed and they were oppressed MORE after his failed Rebellion. His own actions made life worse.

Quote:
6) In R1 it was shown that he has Nunally on his mind all the time and that his desire is to find out why his mother died and protect Nunally. Sure you can say he was doing it for himself as his desire was to allow Nunally live in a nicer world and avenge their mother's death. Never once did he express any desire to overthrow his father and become emperor or the like.
What? Do you know what he said at the end of Episode 25? "And the man who is about to take over the world." So you need to re-evaluate that nonsense that he didn't want to become an emperor.

Quote:
In R2, he has come to realize that he has now become much greater than just someone who wants to avenge the death of a loved one, he has become a symbol of hope for many people who are suffering.
It took Nunnally for him to do that. Oh wait, that isn't all true either. He was about to go to Refrain after that because he lost his goal and really never cared for the rebellion and only used it for his own selfish goals. It took Kallen to snap realize that he isn't the only person in the world.

Quote:
BTW: those reasons you listed, please re-watch ALL the episodes, if you haven't seen them yet. Because they all either suck or are just plain BS.
Plain BS? They are all fact dude. Maybe you need to re-watch the show because your responses were rather weak IMO.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:43   Link #2275
Dynastya
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Told ya Orga777 apparently to Dynastya Lelouch is freaking Jesus(although you make say differ from his first response) and cant do no wrong, yep typically Lelouch fan respond but I will give you a great amount of applaud for giving a trmendous about of detail for your reasons(especially considering the CF) so you win this round.
With the CF, if it wasn't for the fact that the Eunuchs were forcing Tianzi to marry that old f@g (he just seems so meek and timid to me) the plan Xingke had to overthrow the Eunuch and for the citizens to rise up would have succeeded given enough time. But because of the marriage plan he wasn't given enough time so it was necessary for Lelouch to 'assist' him in a way.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:44   Link #2276
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
With the CF, if it wasn't for the fact that the Eunuchs were forcing Tianzi to marry that old f@g (he just seems so meek and timid to me) the plan Xingke had to overthrow the Eunuch and for the citizens to rise up would have succeeded given enough time. But because of the marriage plan he wasn't given enough time so it was necessary for Lelouch to 'assist' him in a way.
I say y'all either start reincorporating Suzaku into this discussion, or haul your rears back to the Lelouch thread. Because to me it looks like your going into discussion about Lelouch, not Suzaku.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:47   Link #2277
Eliarine
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I say y'all either start reincorporating Suzaku into this discussion, or haul your rears back to the Lelouch thread. Because to me it looks like your going into discussion about Lelouch, not Suzaku.
Right you are. I was about to point that out before this "Lelouch has no faults" lol-talk started and we all got carried away. We really should move this to the Lelouch thread.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:50   Link #2278
Dynastya
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No. Lelouch is ready to sacrifice people for his own cause more than he's willing to spare lives. What about the JLF? And Shirley's dad? Those were proofs that Lelouch's way is not the less bloody of the two.



No one is saying it wasn't an accident nor that Lelouch should not have taken advantage of it. But the truth is that he did it, and dismissing it as an accident that should be forgotten like some people keep doing is not an option. It shows that sometimes, even with the best of plans, things can go awry.



That doesn't make it "good".



The situation of the japanese became much worse after he failed his rebellion.



I'm curious as to how he can destroy Britannia without "overthrowing his father".

tl;dr: stop trying to turn Lelouch into a perfect little angel. Both him and Suzaku have faults and that's what makes the story interesting.

1) I said overthrow his father and become emperor, sure he wants to topple britannia and overthrow his father but he isn't doing it so he can become the emperor and perpetuate a flawed system

2) The objective of soldiers and commanders in war is to make the enemy suffer as much as possible. It's not to die for your country but to make the enemy die for their's.

3) There is always a chance of victory and failure and each has his own consequences.

4) The JLF was obsolete in their style of resistance and at the time they didn't want to join the OBK and tried to go their own stupid way, so to Lelouch he considered them to be useful as pawns in order to get rid of one of the biggest obstacles: Lancelot

5) Shirley's father died to an accident, he wasn't killed by the OBK, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time (right in the direct path of where the landslide would be occuring) even the Britannian army who had evacuated the city didn't know he was there on a business trip.

6) Sun Tzu's Art of War states that capable generals in war must make use of any given opportunity in order to win a battle. The tiniest flawed chink in the armor can mean a matter of victory and defeat.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:50   Link #2279
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
I say y'all either start reincorporating Suzaku into this discussion, or haul your rears back to the Lelouch thread. Because to me it looks like your going into discussion about Lelouch, not Suzaku.
Actually, it is LOOSELY attached to Suzaku... It was brought up because some people see Lelouch as perfect and Suzaku as evil. So technically it is still on point, just a little bit off the track.
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Old 2008-06-25, 16:52   Link #2280
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Actually, it is LOOSELY attached to Suzaku... It was brought up because some people see Lelouch as perfect and Suzaku as evil. So technically it is still on point, just a little bit off the track.
I saw that too, but with each counter-argument y'all are making, Suzaku becomes less and less important to the discussion, which is why I (tried to) rein it in.
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